Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? READ POST 1

lazybones32 · 23-03-2017 09:48PM

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

It's merely boring and unimaginative on both fronts.

Prostitution is more respectable for the punter. Going to a strip club is being screwed with your pants still on.

Never understood the appeal of paying someone to give you a boner and then walk away from you. It's like going to McDonalds to make yourself hungry and not actually eating.

23-03-2017 11:41PM

lazybones32 wrote: »

Never understood the appeal of paying someone to give you a boner and then walk away from you. It's like going to McDonalds to make yourself hungry and not actually eating.

For some of us, not everything is about having sex. Sometimes, It's just enjoyable to see a very beautiful woman (or man) dance for you. It's actually quite relaxing. But then it really depends on your attitude when you're going there... (and the type/quality of the strip/lapdancing club itself)

I'm a fairly-confirmed 40 yr old Bachelor, I have zero interest in prostitution, I often lose any interest in Dating.. and a lapdance can be a great way to relax without the pressure of sex [and/or commitment) hanging in the air. There's also very little of the power games that comes with dating a 'modern' woman.

But then a large part of my loving lapdancing clubs is watching the way the dancers manipulate the punters. It seriously gives my psychology degree a run for its money.

deaddonkey15 · 24-03-2017 12:32AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

This is like an article that gets even more depressing as you read down, so I'll just quote snippets -

Three Irish universities win Athena SWAN awards for gender equality progress

"Three Irish universities have been honoured by the Athena SWAN Charter for their work in the battle against gender inequality: Dublin City University (DCU), University College Dublin (UCD) and University of Limerick (UL).
Athena SWAN (Scientific Womens Academic Network) is a charter established by the British Equality Challenge Unit (ECU) and implemented by the UK Resource Centre. It recognises and celebrates good practice towards the advancement of gender equality and specifically representation, progression and success for all. In particular, the charter was set up to encourage the advancement of careers for women in STEM, and higher education and research."

All Irish third-level institutions will be required to gain Athena SWAN awards

"In future, Science Foundation Ireland, the Irish Research Council and the Health Research Board will require higher education institutions (HEIs) to have Athena SWAN gender equality accreditation in order to be eligible for research funding. Irish HEIs will be required to secure Athena SWAN bronze awards by the end of 2019 to ensure they are eligible to compete for research funding allocated by any of the three agencies. To get a sense of the commitment it takes to achieve an Athena SWAN award, DCU has prepared a three-year action plan to reform the promotion process to address the lack of women in senior academic positions, prioritises female leadership initiatives and addresses issues in relation to maternity leave. Examples of key initiatives at DCU included Project 50:50 (to name at least 50pc of new DCU buildings after female research pioneers), family-friendly meeting times, unconscious bias training and a pledge by DCUs president not to serve on a panel of two people or more unless there is at least one woman on the panel, not including the chair."

So I figured, "Who are this SWAN crowd I've never heard of?"

Source: Athena SWAN Charter

At least I could understand NUIG naming a building in honour of one of Irelands pioneering engineers, but the sort of nonsense above?

It all looks a bit "just because..." and I don't know many of my friends who are architects, engineers, software developers, project managers, company directors, etc, who would appreciate being seen as having been "rewarded" with the positions they hold, not because of their hard work they put in to get where they are, but solely on the basis of their gender, because "quotas" had to be met. It's an insult to many of these professions that a persons gender could ever be considered to matter more than the wealth of talent, skills and knowledge they possess.

.

You'd wonder where this sort of nonsense stops though. Say for example everything is evened up regarding gender in every university in Ireland. But now there's no representation of trans people. Maybe when that's fixed someone might notice that the vast majority of people on equally represented boards are white. A few campaigns might get more coloured people in to sort that out, but is there enough LGBT representation there now? How will muslim and jewish people feel about a predominantly christian board? And why aren't disabled people fairly included in all of this?

red ears · 24-03-2017 12:58AM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

You'd wonder where this sort of nonsense stops though. Say for example everything is evened up regarding gender in every university in Ireland. But now there's no representation of trans people. Maybe when that's fixed someone might notice that the vast majority of people on equally represented boards are white. A few campaigns might get more coloured people in to sort that out, but is there enough LGBT representation there now? How will muslim and jewish people feel about a predominantly christian board? And why aren't disabled people fairly included in all of this?

If we take it to its logical conclusion it can only end up in a carve up between race, gender and sexuality. Those are the three big equality issues. Merit will have to take a back seat for diversity.

iptba · 24-03-2017 02:13AM

Deleted User wrote: »

"It recognises and celebrates good practice towards the advancement of gender equality and specifically representation, progression and success for all. In particular, the charter was set up to encourage the advancement of careers for women in STEM, and higher education and research."

Gender equality needs a better definition if that's part of their mission statement. Horrifying.

Took a look at the pages of their charter members... Interesting that there's not a balance in numbers. The vast majority of its charter members are female names.

Yes, I don't think we will see initiatives for demanding gender targets in gender equality departments/positions and the like.

Or for similar levels of funding going for gender-specific research (men's studies vs women's studies).

24-03-2017 09:57AM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

You'd wonder where this sort of nonsense stops though. Say for example everything is evened up regarding gender in every university in Ireland. But now there's no representation of trans people. Maybe when that's fixed someone might notice that the vast majority of people on equally represented boards are white. A few campaigns might get more coloured people in to sort that out, but is there enough LGBT representation there now? How will muslim and jewish people feel about a predominantly christian board? And why aren't disabled people fairly included in all of this?

TBH I don't think it will stop. Feminism is not about equality... feminism is about punishing males and making sure males are never in a position to discriminate against women again... So I dont expect feminists to stop until women are dominent in society in all fields, and in every aspect of the law... Equality is the term they throw about now.. next it'll be that it's time that women were in control because of the mess that men have made so far.. :rolleyes:

If Feminism actually had some actual quantifiable goals, then I could see an end... but each time they gain a right/freedom etc, they move the goal posts further along.

Padraig Mor · 24-03-2017 11:21AM

I have personal experience of the situation in Irish universities regarding the sciences and Athena Swan. as someone said above, it's a cancer and it's getting worse by the month. Women only grants, women only mentoring, etc. SFI (the main research funder) have bought into this bunkum wholesale - hence the article above whereby they state that in future any institution will need an Athena Swan bronze award (and down the line, silver) to be even considered for funding. But it's already ongoing - last few competitions, SFI required the universities to 'filter' applications internally so that at least 50% of those sent on to SFI were from women, even where the majority of applications were from males. And of course, they gerrymandered their own decision making to give women 11 of 20 grants in the last round so they could claim that this pre-screening brought female candidates 'that wouldn't have got through coz patriarchy' to prominence and - whaddyaknow? - the majority of those successful were women! The end result is that an excellent candidate of either gender will do well and will get funding (and this was always the case) but mediocre women are now getting funding over solid-but-unspectacular men. I know of a couple of these guys (we're talking late 30s - early 40s here) who are now talking about changing career because the game is now stacked against them. And why are there more men involved in research? Personally, I think it's because women generally have more cop on than to hang around in universities in precarious employment after qualification and have the good sense to head to industry.

The catalyst for all this was a case in Galway where a female lecturer claimed (successfully in the courts) that she was discriminated against for promotions because she was female. Of course the reality is that she simply wasn't nearly as good as the men who were promoted 'over' her - a fact she herself somewhat acknowledges! The reality is that universities bend over backwards to help women - yet, as in so many fields, it's thrown back in their faces with cries of 'not enough'.

Calhoun · 24-03-2017 11:28AM

Deleted User wrote: »

TBH I don't think it will stop. Feminism is not about equality... feminism is about punishing males and making sure males are never in a position to discriminate against women again... So I dont expect feminists to stop until women are dominent in society in all fields, and in every aspect of the law... Equality is the term they throw about now.. next it'll be that it's time that women were in control because of the mess that men have made so far.. :rolleyes:

If Feminism actually had some actual quantifiable goals, then I could see an end... but each time they gain a right/freedom etc, they move the goal posts further along.

A part of feminism may not stop with their push but as can be seen from allot of numbers feminism is losing allot of support amongst woman as they abandon the third wave of feminism.

They may change their mantra but that is where they must be pushed back, if it does come to it on some alternative future where this somehow becomes a reality would they be willing to take up arms to defend these new rights ect?

We only just saw this week a 52 year old UK citizen wreak havoc in london, what do you think will be the end game if more and more men in society become disenfranchised.

PucaMama · 24-03-2017 04:28PM

Calhoun wrote: »

A part of feminism may not stop with their push but as can be seen from allot of numbers feminism is losing allot of support amongst woman as they abandon the third wave of feminism.

They may change their mantra but that is where they must be pushed back, if it does come to it on some alternative future where this somehow becomes a reality would they be willing to take up arms to defend these new rights ect?

We only just saw this week a 52 year old UK citizen wreak havoc in london, what do you think will be the end game if more and more men in society become disenfranchised.

Feminism is not to blame for Islamic terrorists

Calhoun · 24-03-2017 04:47PM

PucaMama wrote: »

Feminism is not to blame for Islamic terrorists

It's not i was mainly talking to the scenario being painted by klaz. However i would say that disenfranchised males arent limited to religious extremists, you also have the rise in crime in Ireland and the many no-go areas in Dublin ect.

PucaMama · 24-03-2017 04:57PM

Calhoun wrote: »

It's not i was mainly talking to the scenario being painted by klaz. However i would say that disenfranchised males arent limited to religious extremists, you also have the rise in crime in Ireland and the many no-go areas in Dublin ect.

None of those situations are because of feminism either.

kunst nugget · 24-03-2017 05:00PM

maybe

Calhoun wrote: »

It's not i was mainly talking to the scenario being painted by klaz. However i would say that disenfranchised males arent limited to religious extremists, you also have the rise in crime in Ireland and the many no-go areas in Dublin ect.

You seem to be whipping yourself up into a tizzy there and looking for any excuse you can tenuously find to blame feminism for the downfall of society. I don't think any of the things you're mentioning there can be really ascribed to feminism - I'd imagine feminism isn't really a hot topic in Moyross or Sheriff Street.

ligerdub · 24-03-2017 05:27PM

Yeah agreed, let's drop that one and move on.

One eyed Jack · 24-03-2017 05:44PM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

You'd wonder where this sort of nonsense stops though. Say for example everything is evened up regarding gender in every university in Ireland. But now there's no representation of trans people. Maybe when that's fixed someone might notice that the vast majority of people on equally represented boards are white. A few campaigns might get more coloured people in to sort that out, but is there enough LGBT representation there now? How will muslim and jewish people feel about a predominantly christian board? And why aren't disabled people fairly included in all of this?

The simplest answer to that is - it doesn't stop, and it'll never stop, because a lot of this identity politics stuff really doesn't apply in Ireland. It's more applicaple to the UK and the US, and it's being imported here to try and point out "systematic, problematic" issues where really there aren't any. From the Athena SWAN FAQ -

"What do we mean by ‘intersectionality’?

By intersectionality we mean people’s identities and social positions being shaped by several factors at the same time, creating unique experiences and perspectives. These factors include among others, age, disability, gender, race, religion and sexuality.

For example, the experiences of, and outcomes within, higher education will be very different for a Black woman compared to a white woman. In practice, intersectionality is less about bringing two different factors together, eg older people and disabled people; and more about considering the experience of older disabled people, people at the ‘intersection’ of older age and disability."

The above sort of tokenism reminds me of a conference I was at last year regarding the future of education in Ireland, and one of the speakers was from the UK, and she was giving it welly about the lack of women and BME at third level, which was definitely more relevant in a UK context. It's as though she hadn't even thought of her audience and tailored her presentation accordingly, when the room was filled with Casper white Irish women and only a handful of men.

Now granted it was a teacher training college so I didn't expect much variance in the audience, but that didn't stop this woman going on to talk about how there weren't enough women in STEM, and how it was mostly socially awkward men (I'd lost the will to listen at this stage), before she moved on to the topic of 'unconscious bias', without so much as stopping for a breather to spot the irony.

red ears · 24-03-2017 05:46PM

Calhoun wrote: »

A part of feminism may not stop with their push but as can be seen from allot of numbers feminism is losing allot of support amongst woman as they abandon the third wave of feminism.

It probably doesn't matter if most women don't support them. The powers that be are listening to the ones shouting and are making decisions that help their cause. It's going to take a serious change of tac from the media for some balance to be brought in. The media have so much influence. As it is tho the media are very much in the feminist camp.

ligerdub · 24-03-2017 06:22PM

Perhaps the socially awkward part makes them better at the pure sciences.

If you look at the greats of science, many of them were bordering on the autistic. Newton and Da Vinci for example. I appreciate I may well have walked into a "QI" trap there and perhaps I've spouted bollocks there, and perhaps there is no benefit of social awkwardness/scientific success, but there might be something to it.

This tends to be a male trait, so it may also be an explanation as to why men are more inclined towards in, and also why the we need more women in stem argument falls to pieces.

One eyed Jack · 24-03-2017 07:08PM

ligerdub wrote: »

Perhaps the socially awkward part makes them better at the pure sciences.

If you look at the greats of science, many of them were bordering on the autistic. Newton and Da Vinci for example. I appreciate I may well have walked into a "QI" trap there and perhaps I've spouted bollocks there, and perhaps there is no benefit of social awkwardness/scientific success, but there might be something to it.

This tends to be a male trait, so it may also be an explanation as to why men are more inclined towards in, and also why the we need more women in stem argument falls to pieces.

Perhaps?

Well, at least you were self-aware enough to acknowledge that what you were suggesting was questionable! The woman who was giving the presentation possessed no such self-awareness when she made her throwaway "amirite girls?" remark. I could only give her the benefit of the doubt that she was trying to connect with her audience. The thing is though, to follow her logic to it's flawed conclusion would mean that rather than encouraging more young women into STEM, it would actually turn young people of both genders off the idea.

The idea of the socially awkward savante is more of a Hollywood trope than it is a reality, and recent research suggests that rather than previously held ideas about the prevalence of males on the ASD spectrum, there are more females presenting as on the spectrum than previous research had suggested, so the idea that socially awkward behaviours and attitudes are more commonly male traits that correlate with the idea that this is what makes the hard sciences more attractive to them? It's... a bit out there!

In saying that though (and I know it's only anecdotal, small sample size), but I was at the Young Scientist Exhibition in January, I go every year, but this year I have to say I was disappointed with the exhibition. The numbers of young boys and girls were fairly evenly split across all the sciences, but the largest category by far this year was the 'Social and Behavioural' sciences category, with some of what could only be described as a poor standard of projects on display.

Calhoun · 24-03-2017 07:37PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

You seem to be whipping yourself up into a tizzy there and looking for any excuse you can tenuously find to blame feminism for the downfall of society. I don't think any of the things you're mentioning there can be really ascribed to feminism - I'd imagine feminism isn't really a hot topic in Moyross or Sheriff Street.

You seem to be jumping to some conclusions there, you want to come down off your horse and have a discussion about the matter at hand. I was talking about a scenario painted of males being disenfranchised, I didnt say it could be ascribed to feminism but the more any part of society becomes disenfranchised the more they look to other means to get ahead.

silverharp · 24-03-2017 08:03PM

When I went to DCU the Applied Physics guys more often then not were involved in mountaineering etc. Quite an outdoorsie bunch with a wicked sense of humour. At the end of the day if you are going to get on in a science field you are going to have to be a people person and have a business mind. You will be expected to manage people and a budget and be able to argue a case for what you want your people to do.

fly_agaric · 24-03-2017 10:22PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

it'll never stop.

Alot of peoples' careers and livelihoods are built on the back of keeping a watchful eye out for the next ism; actually having a fixed goal would not be good for that, a moving target is far better:pac:

fly_agaric · 24-03-2017 10:36PM

silverharp wrote: »

When I went to DCU the Applied Physics guys more often then not were involved in mountaineering etc. Quite an outdoorsie bunch with a wicked sense of humour. At the end of the day if you are going to get on in a science field you are going to have to be a people person and have a business mind. You will be expected to manage people and a budget and be able to argue a case for what you want your people to do.

True you certainly can't lead a team/head up a research lab in a university science or engineering dept. without being well able to present, be very outgoing when necessary (even if its not really in your nature) and beg for funding in a really convincing way.

My memory is the real stereotype nerds were located in the fields like theoretical physics, pure mathematics, computer science and not in the experimental science you are referring to (applied physics).
Now that I think of it, it is also possible I suppose for someone in such fields to still work alone or with far fewer collaborators than in experimental science.

silverharp · 28-03-2017 03:55PM

the lack of an inner voice of the person who wrote this article and the short sightedness of the mother.

Carlos Orange · 28-03-2017 04:12PM

No

silverharp wrote: »

the lack of an inner voice of the person who wrote this article and the short sightedness of the mother.

Not sure I would call having your kids 5 days a week being a 50/50 mum.

JRant · 28-03-2017 10:37PM

The language is quite telling, "having to divide time with the children equally with exes". Exes??? Not fathers.

Armchair Andy · 29-03-2017 11:50AM

Bulmers lost me as a customer with that "percentages" advertisement on the TV. Men made look to be real thickos in it.
If that's the demographic (middle aged and younger male)they're aiming for they've gone the wrong way about it.

silverharp · 29-03-2017 12:13PM

Armchair Andy wrote: »

Bulmers lost me as a customer with that "percentages" advertisement on the TV. Men made look to be real thickos in it.
If that's the demographic (middle aged and younger male)they're aiming for they've gone the wrong way about it.

the advert seem to be marketing itself as a young person's drink for sure and yeah made fun of the older "uncool" man who is clearly at the wrong party. otherwise making fun of the self absorbed twit which is ok and the one about laughing along when you hadn't heard what the gag was I thought was funny, that happens to everyone. I don't think its an own goal of an avert assuming they are happy with making the ad feel like Bulmers its not for anyone over 35.

Armchair Andy · 29-03-2017 12:32PM

Maybe so regarding the target audience but even still. I'm over 35 so job done on their behalf :-)
You've made me see the error of my ways, they just don't want my custom simple as.

kunst nugget · 29-03-2017 12:33PM

maybe

Armchair Andy wrote: »

Maybe so regarding the target audience but even still. I'm over 35 so job done on their behalf :-)
You've made me see the error of my ways, they just don't want my custom simple as.

Anyone over 35 still drinking Bulmers needs to get their taste buds tested…

silverharp · 29-03-2017 12:42PM

Armchair Andy wrote: »

Maybe so regarding the target audience but even still. I'm over 35 so job done on their behalf :-)
You've made me see the error of my ways, they just don't want my custom simple as.

if you want a comically bad p1ssing off your consumer base advert, have a look at a Heineken advert with the soundtrack "I need a hero" I think it was just a US advert, it was like they got a bunch of feminists to put the advert together

Carlos Orange · 29-03-2017 12:45PM

No

silverharp wrote: »

if you want a comically bad p1ssing off your consumer base advert, have a look at a Heineken advert with the soundtrack "I need a hero" I think it was just a US advert, it was like they got a bunch of feminists to put the advert together

I think the ad makes a good point that heroes don't drink Heineken.

Anyone got a link to the Bulmers ad being referenced?
I did a quick google but came up dry.

Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

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Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? READ POST 1