Attack outside UK Houses Of Parliament — No speculation — Read 1st post

FrancieBrady · 24-03-2017 03:40PM

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

So in this context, who is disaffected and why?

I don't know why he committed violent crime before he converted to Islam.
But I think most violent crime is committed by people who are disaffected from normal society in some way.
Therefore I think he was disaffected from society first, then he found a cause.
Take Islam out of it and in and off itself it's a fairly classic road to this type of violence and death by cop. i.e School shooting rampages, work place shooting rampages etc.

CoolHandBandit · 24-03-2017 03:47PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know why he committed violent crime before he converted to Islam.
But I think most violent crime is committed by people who are disaffected from normal society in some way.
Therefore I think he was disaffected from society first, then he found a cause.
Take Islam out of it and in and off itself it's a fairly classic road to this type of violence and death by cop. i.e School shooting rampages, work place shooting rampages etc.

You can't just take Islam out though. It's a major part of it.

Depp · 24-03-2017 03:50PM

ScumLord wrote: »

but it is a council, that's just a plain fact. Councils and courts are two different things. It's not like there aren't all kinds of mediation out there that are meant to be an alternative to the court.

Council or court the fact of the matter is several of these ''councils'' act as a ''court'' within the communities the preside over. Even with their own community police force in some cases (sharia patrols)

ScumLord wrote: »

If these councils are bad then please explain what's wrong with them. Can you give some examples of what harm they're doing? If you weren't so determined to assume my position I might even end up agreeing with you.

Look at my post a few posts ago outlining some sharia laws these ''councils'' enforce within their communities. Think now its not reactionary to say that the fact people enforce these laws, be it through state law (saudi arabia) or through community policing in the uk they are doing massive harm and to deny they are is a dangerous fallacy

Call Me Jimmy · 24-03-2017 03:56PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I don't know why he committed violent crime before he converted to Islam.
But I think most violent crime is committed by people who are disaffected from normal society in some way.
Therefore I think he was disaffected from society first, then he found a cause.
Take Islam out of it and in and off itself it's a fairly classic road to this type of violence and death by cop. i.e School shooting rampages, work place shooting rampages etc.

So there's no reason to push back against any ideology because beliefs are irrelevant. Like he would have ran over multiple people and tried to kill MP's and possibly the prime minister no matter what he believed. Same goes for the Nice attacker, he would have mowed down all those peoples anyway whatever the cause

ScumLord · 24-03-2017 03:56PM

Depp wrote: »

Look at my post a few posts ago outlining some sharia laws these councils enforce within their communities. Think now its not reactionary to say that the fact people enforce these laws, be it through state law (saudi arabia) or through community policing in the uk they are doing massive harm

You listed some things and attributed them to sharia law. You didn't give any examples of these councils actually enforcing these laws. They have no authority to do so, the people involved have to agree to follow the council as a means of resolution.

These councils don't have laws, they can't enforce these laws, lawfully. The council's descriptions are of a mediation council. so if you have alternative evidence please post it, because you're describing something completely different from other's descriptions.

I'm not saying it's untrue, but you need to prove to me that it is true.

FrancieBrady · 24-03-2017 04:02PM

CoolHandBandit wrote: »

You can't just take Islam out though. It's a major part of it.

I think you missed the point.
No, you cannot take Islam out of it, it's clearly there, but you do have to look at the whole picture.
This guy was clearly violent before Islam arrived on the scene. Not every person who is violent goes on a rampage like this, but it does happen (hence the examples of school and workplace rampages)
I can think of a few rampages in Britain that led to significant deaths offhand Dunblane, Hungerford and the one in Cumbria.

24-03-2017 04:04PM

Depp wrote: »

This is a short summary of some of the tenets of sharia law taken from the quran...regardless of the dilution when you have a rapidly increasing 600000 people practicing and promoting this in a civilized country you definitely do have a problem, and its absolutely a huge one.

Well I doubt very much the 52 1/2 million other people are gonna let it become law.

Widdershins · 24-03-2017 04:04PM

bubblypop wrote: »

If the Muslim community is taking law & order into their own hands, then it should be stopped.
What types of crimes are they investigating & what sanctions are they bringing?
Is this activity recorded anywhere?

Do you really not know what sharia law is? Aren't you a garda?

Just saw your last comment to Depp. Well now you know a bit about it. Well it'll never (as far as you can tell)become the official law of the land, so that's ok?

A few comments here beggar belief.

FrancieBrady · 24-03-2017 04:08PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Do you really not know what sharia law is? Aren't you a garda?

Just saw your last comment to Depp. Well now you know a bit about it. Well it'll never (as far as you can tell)become the official law of the land, so that's ok?

Ok, so now we have established that we are all against it and find it repugnant to human decency, how do you propose dealing with it's existence? Other than giving out about it on t'internet.

Depp · 24-03-2017 04:09PM

ScumLord wrote: »

You listed some things and attributed them to sharia law. You didn't give any examples of these councils actually enforcing these laws. They have no authority to do so, the people involved have to agree to follow the council as a means of resolution.

These councils don't have laws, they can't enforce these laws, lawfully. The council's descriptions are of a mediation council. so if you have alternative evidence please post it, because you're describing something completely different from other's descriptions.

I'm not saying it's untrue, but you need to prove to me that it is true.

I listed several actual real sharia laws, by definition if someone supports sharia or enforces it they support these laws. Theres no need for the mental gymnastics and im sure you don't need my help to use google for yourself.

Its all well and good to state the legal definition and insist its some ''voluntary'' scheme, but try saying that to the countless young girls and boys born into muslim families who practice sharia, think to yourself is it voluntary for them?

I'm not here to convince you or teach you about it, I'm not going to post links only for them to be sneered at as fake news or alt-right propoganda, (go through the thread, this has happened to me and several others). You're an adult you're well able to research this and come to your own conclusions.

24-03-2017 04:11PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Do you really not know what sharia law is? Aren't you a garda?

Just saw your last comment to Depp. Well now you know a bit about it. Well it'll never (as far as you can tell)become the official law of the land, so that's ok?

Of course I know what Sharia law is. I'm asking what exactly is known about these unofficial courts in England. Or are they something else.
What are they investigating & what sanctions do they impose? Where do they get the authority to impose sanctions on anyone & what happens if they ate ignored.
No, it won't become the law of the land, & I would need to be shown proof that they exist, other than someone on the internet just saying it.
If anyone, anyone at all, thinks they can bypass the legal system of the country they live in, then they should be dealt with in accordance of law.

And what does my job have to do with anything?

Depp · 24-03-2017 04:12PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Well I doubt very much the 52 1/2 million other people are gonna let it become law.

Fine, ignore rapidly changing population demographics all you like and forget that it could be a problem in the future, people in the uk already live under sharia law, are you ok with this in any modern society? cause I'm not!

24-03-2017 04:14PM

Depp wrote: »

Fine, ignore rapidly changing population demographics all you like and forget that it could be a problem in the future, people in the uk already live under sharia law, are you ok with this in any modern society? cause I'm not!

I don't believe anyone said they are OK with people living under Sharia law in the UK.
Stop making up stuff

Depp · 24-03-2017 04:17PM

bubblypop wrote: »

I don't believe anyone said they are OK with people living under Sharia law in the UK.
Stop making up stuff

ignoring it is condoning it by ommission

24-03-2017 04:21PM

Depp wrote: »

ignoring it is condoning it by ommission

Who's ignoring anything?
I'm not saying there isn't Sharia courts operating in the UK, I'm asking where I find out about them?

Christy42 · 24-03-2017 04:23PM

Depp wrote: »

I listed several actual real sharia laws, by definition if someone supports sharia or enforces it they support these laws. Theres no need for the mental gymnastics and im sure you don't need my help to use google for yourself.

Its all well and good to state the legal definition and insist its some ''voluntary'' scheme, but try saying that to the countless young girls and boys born into muslim families who practice sharia, think to yourself is it voluntary for them?

I'm not here to convince you or teach you about it, I'm not going to post links only for them to be sneered at as fake news or alt-right propoganda, (go through the thread, this has happened to me and several others). You're an adult you're well able to research this and come to your own conclusions.

You are being asked if these councils are actually chopping off people's hands for stealing or if they are a glorified confessional box telling people to go off and say their prayers s bit more often.

Depp · 24-03-2017 04:24PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Who's ignoring anything?
I'm not saying there isn't Sharia courts operating in the UK, I'm asking where I find out about them?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=sharia+law+in+the+uk

Widdershins · 24-03-2017 04:27PM

Christy42 wrote: »

You are being asked if these councils are actually chopping off people's hands for stealing or if they are a glorified confessional box telling people to go off and say their prayers s bit more often.

No, because they operate in the UK where there is an existing legal system that would make sure they never do it a second time. That you could compare sharia to a confessional, indicates you're not very aware. Or that you value womens rights very little.

robinph · 24-03-2017 04:29PM

• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.

Wherever this is copy and pasted from it is probably a bit out of date, by a thousand years or so. I doubt that the Sharia councils are expecting Muhammad to come and see them to check that he can have more than 4 wives, unless it is referring to anyone called Muhammad?

Or maybe they don't actually follow that list of items when making their decisions?

Theboinkmaster · 24-03-2017 04:30PM

Depp wrote: »

This is a short summary of some of the tenets of sharia law taken from the quran...regardless of the dilution when you have a rapidly increasing 600000 people practicing and promoting this in a civilized country you definitely do have a problem, and its absolutely a huge one.

How many actually follow sharia law though?

Is it like Catholics not working the Sabbath etc.

ScumLord · 24-03-2017 04:30PM

Depp wrote: »

I listed several actual real sharia laws, by definition if someone supports sharia or enforces it they support these laws. Theres no need for the mental gymnastics and im sure you don't need my help to use google for yourself.

Listing some excerpts from the Koran isn't the same thing as proving these councils are actually enforcing these laws or even using them exclusively as a form of resolution when they mediate between two parties. your making very generalized statements that you seem to have difficulty backing up. Where is the evidence these councils in the UK are enforcing sharia law over simple mediation?

Its all well and good to state the legal definition and insist its some ''voluntary'' scheme, but try saying that to the countless young girls and boys born into muslim families who practice sharia, think to yourself is it voluntary for them?

If you're saying it's not I'll again ask for some sort of proof. I visit London about once a year, I see what I assume is Muslim women walking the streets dressed exactly the same as indigenous women. even when I go to Birmingham which has a big Islamic population I don't see too many women walking around dressed as ninjas. In my experience british Muslims are pretty moderate.

You're an adult you're well able to research this and come to your own conclusions.

I did a search and can't really find anything concrete, there are stories and rumors, both positive and negative. Going to religious leaders for help on these issues is a waste of time in my opinion, especially if your female, religion has no respect for women but if you're a believer it's going to have meaning to you and your local community. It's likely there are different levels, some are probably very good, some are awful, the rest are just promoting religious dogma.

I wouldn't be totally against shutting them down however. They should be heavily monitored, the "mediators" should be properly trained and fully aware of the local law and any conflicts. If it's to do with religious interpretation the legal courts can't help. Depending on the scope of the councils I don't really have a problem with them in theory.

Depp · 24-03-2017 04:31PM

robinph wrote: »

• A woman can have 1 husband, who can have up to 4 wives; Muhammad can have more.

Wherever this is copy and pasted from it is probably a bit out of date, by a thousand years or so. I doubt that the Sharia councils are expecting Muhammad to come and see them to check that he can have more than 4 wives, unless it is referring to anyone called Muhammad?

Or maybe they don't actually follow that list of items when making their decisions?

look up sharia divorces, this seems to be common practice for men to have several marriages recognised by the mosque but not by british law to be fair.

Richard Hillman · 24-03-2017 04:31PM

bubblypop wrote: »

Well I doubt very much the 52 1/2 million other people are gonna let it become law.

Firstly, it already is law in certain neighbourhoods of the country. It will be a long time until they fully take Britain though.

However, it won't be too long until they have the capability to take Belgium or Nederlands. With the divisiveness of European Politics, and the leftists willingness to die or over admitting they were wrong, it will only take an organised voting block to take a government role. The leftists would probably enable them with coalition's if need be.

The population of Netherlands is 17million. There are roughly 1m Muslims in the Netherlands. The biggest party in the last elections got 2.3 million votes. You need roughly 4m votes to get a majority.

The population of Belgium is 11m. The Muslim population is roughly 900k. The biggest party in the last election got 1.3m votes. You'll need about 2m to get a majority.

When do we take the problem seriously? When the population is 10%? 20%? 30%, oh wait it would be too late then.

As long as they are organised and the leftists enable them, there could be a European Country under an Islamic led government within 25 years. They don't need a population majority, they just need a voting block.

Christy42 · 24-03-2017 04:32PM

Widdershins wrote: »

No, because they operate in the UK where there is an existing legal system that would make sure they never do it a second time. That you could compare sharia to a confessional, indicates you're not very aware. Or that you value womens rights very little.

I didn't compare to anything. I asked a question. The fact that the people against them seem to be attempting to withhold facts about these things is making me suspicious though. It seems more like hinting at the worst possible case without having to back anything up.

I mean I feel like it would help your argument to show exactly what they are doing and yet there seems to be a lot of dodging around the specifics of how these things operate.

I mean the basic idea behind is pretty terrible but a few facts might help your discussion a bit.

24-03-2017 04:35PM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Firstly, it already is law in certain neighbourhoods of the country.

No it's not.
England has its own legal system & it is not based on Sharia law.

Depp · 24-03-2017 04:35PM

ScumLord wrote: »

Listing some excerpts from the Koran isn't the same thing as proving these councils are actually enforcing these laws or even using them exclusively as a form of resolution when they mediate between two parties. your making very generalized statements that you seem to have difficulty backing up. Where is the evidence these councils in the UK are enforcing sharia law over simple mediation?

If you're saying it's not I'll again ask for some sort of proof. I visit London about once a year, I see what I assume is Muslim women walking the streets dressed exactly the same as indigenous women. even when I go to Birmingham which has a big Islamic population I don't see too many women walking around dressed as ninjas. In my experience british Muslims are pretty moderate.

I did a search and can't really find anything concrete, there are stories and rumors, both positive and negative. Going to religious leaders for help on these issues is a waste of time in my opinion, especially if your female, religion has no respect for women but if you're a believer it's going to have meaning to you and your local community. It's likely there are different levels, some are probably very good, some are awful, the rest are just promoting religious dogma.

I wouldn't be totally against shutting them down however. They should be heavily monitored, the "mediators" should be properly trained and fully aware of the local law and any conflicts. If it's to do with religious interpretation the legal courts can't help. Depending on the scope of the councils I don't really have a problem with them in theory.

I agree, I'm not in favour of banning it people should be free to practice their religion. What I'd really like to see is better protection from the government for women and children living in these communities. The sharia divorce rules and the power they seem to have as often the marriages are not state recognised I find are particularly disgusting.

Depp · 24-03-2017 04:38PM

Good Doc from the bbc if you have 20 minutes spare.

Widdershins · 24-03-2017 04:40PM

Christy42 wrote: »

I didn't compare to anything. I asked a question. The fact that the people against them seem to be attempting to withhold facts about these things is making me suspicious though. It seems more like hinting at the worst possible case without having to back anything up.

I mean I feel like it would help your argument to show exactly what they are doing and yet there seems to be a lot of dodging around the specifics of how these things operate.

I mean the basic idea behind is pretty terrible but a few facts might help your discussion a bit.

Which people are against them? Have you considered researching campaigns against sharia and reading about personal experiences etc? I think the campaign is more or less worldwide so I find it extremely hard to believe that you're genuinely in ignorance.
What do you think people are hinting at?
The worst case is where people are put to death and I've personally said that's not part of sharia law in Britain because sharia is not the law of the land and it wouldn't be tolerated. Having said that there have been honour killings and acid attacks on British women.

Assuming you understand divorce and inheritance outcomes for women can be very different to those who go through the British legal system and that coercive control is exerted over women in some strict families, or at least have some knowledge of sharia (you admit the idea behind it is terrible) then why are you asking for people to convince you of? It's a bit contradictory-almost like saying, the idea is terrible but what's so bad about it?

No, on reflection, nobody's witheld facts, it's yourself and a garda of all people,claiming to need it explained and feigning total ignorance that is suspicious and very hard to take seriously.

Widdershins · 24-03-2017 04:41PM

Depp wrote: »

Good Doc from the bbc if you have 20 minutes spare.

Interested to see if anyone watches it or automatically reverts back to ''oh but it'll never be the law of the land''.

Will I Am Not · 24-03-2017 04:43PM

bubblypop wrote: »

So?

In an ideal world with equal opportunity there wouldn't be a problem with nationals being outnumbered by foreign nationals in their own towns. Except maybe the loss of culture, history and identity but they are not guaranteed anyway regardless of nationality.
But we don't live in an ideal world unfortunately and large scale multiculturalism comes with problems.

Attack outside UK Houses Of Parliament — No speculation — Read 1st post

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