14,500 traffic convictions to be quashed over Garda error

armchaircoach · 23-03-2017 09:48PM

sdanseo wrote: »

Separating the issues for a second, and focusing on the number of breath tests. The Assistant Commissioner on the news today gave an explanation which made a good bit of sense. Each guard who took part in a checkpoint estimated at the end of the shift how many vehicles were stopped, and there were 400,000 checkpoints. Hence the 937,000 error was really only a difference in 2 or 3 per checkpoint - an easy error when you're asked to guess.

What I don't get is how they arrived at the conclusion that all these guesses were wrong?

As for the convictions - proper order. If a FCPN isn't issued and you aren't given the chance to pay it then you shouldn't be convicted. The thing that again, I don't get, is how it took 14,500 people being convicted before someone copped or challenged the fact that they hadn't been given a ticket.

Only in ireland. We really are piss poor at any sort of planning or administration.

One thing I would feel strongly about though is tarring every guard with the brush. This was clearly established practice. It is a management failure. The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

I don't know why this is only hitting the mainstream news today. this exact issue was brought up on newstalk breakfast a couple of weeks ago, and by whom you might ask? well by the company that supplies the gardai with the single use mouthpieces for each breath test. They were wondering why the number of tests recorded was far in excess of the number of mouthpieces ordered.

that would be a far more accurate method of measuring tests administered, but you know accountability isn't exactly in vogue with the powers that be in this state.

SEPT 23 1989 · 23-03-2017 10:03PM

Not a mention on the headlines on the nine o clock news or primetime

Surprise surprise

exaisle · 23-03-2017 10:03PM

Does anybody think that this came to light on the one day when it was guaranteed not to make the front page?

Why the person responsible hasn't fallen on their sword is a mystery to me.

Grow a pair, Mr Assistant Commissioner!

ChikiChiki · 23-03-2017 10:08PM

Does anyone even bother auditing these cowboys?

Donal55 · 23-03-2017 10:15PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Not a mention on the headlines on the nine o clock news or primetime

Surprise surprise

The same crowd that are looking for 100% increase in the licence fee.
Public service broadcasting??

Boaty · 23-03-2017 10:16PM

1 million breath tests over 5 years is still a massive amount.
Why do we want Gardai to be bogged down in paperwork when there's not even enough of them to effectively patrol the streets.
I'm only concerned with the amount that are caught not the amount that are tested.

Dionysius2 · 23-03-2017 10:16PM

There's something very odd about the number of mobile phone prosecutions whilst driving too. Hard to find them in the courts yet the conviction numbers are way up there. Go figure.

Icemancometh · 23-03-2017 10:18PM

sdanseo wrote: »

Separating the issues for a second, and focusing on the number of breath tests. The Assistant Commissioner on the news today gave an explanation which made a good bit of sense. Each guard who took part in a checkpoint estimated at the end of the shift how many vehicles were stopped, and there were 400,000 checkpoints. Hence the 937,000 error was really only a difference in 2 or 3 per checkpoint - an easy error when you're asked to guess.

What I don't get is how they arrived at the conclusion that all these guesses were wrong?

As for the convictions - proper order. If a FCPN isn't issued and you aren't given the chance to pay it then you shouldn't be convicted. The thing that again, I don't get, is how it took 14,500 people being convicted before someone copped or challenged the fact that they hadn't been given a ticket.

Only in ireland. We really are piss poor at any sort of planning or administration.

One thing I would feel strongly about though is tarring every guard with the brush. This was clearly established practice. It is a management failure. The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

If it was just error from guessing, shouldn't it be much lower. For every guard guessing 2 or 3 over shouldn't one guess 2 or 3 under? If its just errors in estimation after all

Heisenberg1 · 23-03-2017 10:33PM

It would make you laugh that they were threatening strike for increased pay turns out they were doing 50% less work and got the pay increase.

Going Forward · 23-03-2017 10:56PM

sdanseo wrote: »

The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

You won't get too many ordinary motorists opening their mouth about anything at a checkpoint for obvious reasons. They have far too much respect.

It'll be in the back of their minds though.

You'll only get the sort that has built up a certain rapport with gardai, the sort that has 60 previous convictions mouthing off at a checkpoint or anywhere else.

please helpThank YOU · 23-03-2017 10:56PM

My Grandmother she was 98 when she passed away. and she all ways told me never trust an Garda Siochana . I said Grandma but why your Father was Garda.? your three brothers where Garda ? she made me think? did she know something at the time? now as time has past we have Garda Scandals one after another.

Noddyholder · 23-03-2017 11:08PM

please helpThank YOU wrote: »

My Grandmother she was 98 when she passed away. and she all ways told me never trust an Garda Siochana . I said Grandma but why your Father was Garda.? your three brothers where Garda ? she made me think? did she know something at the time? now as time has past we have Garda Scandals one after another.

My grandfather said never trust your grandmother

:P

please helpThank YOU · 23-03-2017 11:10PM

Noddyholder wrote: »

My grandfather said never trust your grandmother :P

ahahaha very funny ahahah but what I am a

:)saying is true

FishOnABike · 24-03-2017 02:31AM

whoopsadoodles wrote: »

Holy sh*t.

I got a court summons a few years ago after being stopped by a garda for speeding. I never received the notice in the post. I had followed up with the garda station but they said it would follow in a month or so.

On the day in court I was absolutely bricking it, and the judge really didn't want to believe that I'd never received the notice. He asked me "has any other post gone missing?" and I thought to myself "well how the hell would I know?" but obviously just said not that I was aware of.

The garda present on the day said he believed me and that's the only reason it ended up being struck out.

Thank fcuk I didn't get someone like that guy above

As the saying goes - power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

While the independence of the judiciary is important I think it has gone too far. Unfortunately some judges have an arrogant belief in their own infallibility, propped up by an almost complete lack of accountability for their conduct or misconduct.

diomed · 24-03-2017 02:43AM

Makes you wonder about the accuracy of Garda overtime hours if they are not very good at recording stuff.

Mr.Micro · 24-03-2017 03:44AM

When I was growing up, some of the biggest trouble makers in the community got to join An Garda. In hindsight they clearly had all the right credentials, rough, thuggish, disrespectful, bordering on criminal. They are probably at the top of the Garda hierarchy by now. That's the standard.

suicide_circus · 24-03-2017 06:41AM

They're some lads for exaggerated figures. Their valuations for the "street value" of drug hauls have always been ridiculous.

Noddyholder · 24-03-2017 09:07AM

And in relation to one period, it was discovered that the figures for roadside breath tests alleged to have been carried out was bigger than the total number of mouthpieces available to the force at that time.

As a result of the investigation, gardai said, the system used to record the roadside tests had now been tightened up and personnel had been warned to be more careful in putting the figures together.

That's comical reading.

From Irish Independent

suicide_circus · 24-03-2017 09:50AM

^^^^ trying to make out it thousands upon thousands of clerical errors rather than systematic and deliberate massaging of the numbers. They really have no respect for the intelligence of the public.

Cee-Jay-Cee · 24-03-2017 10:24AM

skankkuvhima wrote: »

I wonder if this judge feels a bit stupid now

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/district-court/nothing-as-appalling-as-a-liar-driver-committed-perjury-judge-1.2928295

That story has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. The story being reported by the OP is where someone was prosecuted and did not receive a FCPS fine in the post before hand, ie the case went straight to court without the person being given an opportunity to pay a fine.

In the story you linked to, an FCPS fine was issued but the defendant claimed they never received it and was subsequently prosecuted.

Do you feel a bit stupid now?

Noddyholder · 24-03-2017 10:31AM

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

That story has absolutely nothing to do with this issue. The story being reported by the OP is where someone was prosecuted and did not receive a FCPS fine in the post before hand, ie the case went straight to court.

In the story you linked to, an FCPS fine was issued but the defendant claimed they never received it and was subsequently prosecuted.

Do you feel a bit stupid now?

Mr Sutton was one of two motorists Judge Durcan banned from driving for one year after not accepting evidence they did not receive the fixed charge penalty notice in the post.

The judge didn't accept that the defendant did not receive it, yet there were over 14,700 people convicted in the courts were prosecuted without a fixed-charge notice first being issued.

I don't understand the point your making, You believe the judge & you don't believe the defendant ?

Cee-Jay-Cee · 24-03-2017 10:37AM

Noddyholder wrote: »

Mr Sutton was one of two motorists Judge Durcan banned from driving for one year after not accepting evidence they did not receive the fixed charge penalty notice in the post.

The judge didn't accept that the defendant did not receive it, yet there were over 14,700 people convicted in the courts were prosecuted without a fixed-charge notice first being issued.

I don't understand the point your making, You believe the judge & you don't believe the defendant ?

The two stories are completely different and not linked.

In the OP story, 14700 people were summonsed to court without being given a chance to pay a fine first, ie there was no fine issued and the case proceeded straight to court where they were fined/convicted.

In the other case a FCPS fine was issued, that is not being disputed as there will be a record of it having been issued. In the case of the 14700, no fine was ever issued. The judge didn't believe that the person didn't receive the fine saying it was lost in the post.

How is that so difficult to understand?

I suspect many people who tried the 'I never got the FCPS fine' defence line will think they are one of the 14700 people, theyre not and will not be included in any reversal of the fines or penalty points.

Noddyholder · 24-03-2017 10:49AM

Cee-Jay-Cee wrote: »

The two stories are completely different and not linked.

In the OP story, 14700 people were summonsed to court without being given a chance to pay a fine first, ie there was no fine issued and the case proceeded straight to court where they were fined/convicted.

In the other case a FCPS fine was issued, that is not being disputed as there will be a record of it having been issued. In the case of the 14700, no fine was ever issued. The judge didn't believe that the person didn't receive the fine saying it was lost in the post.

How is that so difficult to understand?

I suspect many people who tried the 'I never got the FCPS fine' defence line will think they are one of the 14700 people, theyre not and will not be included in any reversal of the fines or penalty points.

Well maybe if you explained it like that in your first post before you edit it,

Folks might know were your coming from.

Its a right mess the Garda have gotten themselves in again don't you think ?

24-03-2017 10:57AM

sdanseo wrote: »

Separating the issues for a second, and focusing on the number of breath tests. The Assistant Commissioner on the news today gave an explanation which made a good bit of sense. Each guard who took part in a checkpoint estimated at the end of the shift how many vehicles were stopped, and there were 400,000 checkpoints. Hence the 937,000 error was really only a difference in 2 or 3 per checkpoint - an easy error when you're asked to guess.

What I don't get is how they arrived at the conclusion that all these guesses were wrong?

As for the convictions - proper order. If a FCPN isn't issued and you aren't given the chance to pay it then you shouldn't be convicted. The thing that again, I don't get, is how it took 14,500 people being convicted before someone copped or challenged the fact that they hadn't been given a ticket.

Only in ireland. We really are piss poor at any sort of planning or administration.

One thing I would feel strongly about though is tarring every guard with the brush. This was clearly established practice. It is a management failure. The lad who stops you next week doesn't deserve a smart remark over it.

Haha, nice bit of a sneak with the "2 or 3%" stat there. They almost doubled the number so the "error" across the board was over 90%, not 2 or 3%.

Theboinkmaster · 24-03-2017 11:02AM

Have to say I have absolutely ZERO respect for the traffic core Gards in this country. Am lucky enough to only ever encounter the traffic core and think they're a bunch of absolute PIGS. Zero interest in saving lives and getting people to drive correctly - just shooting fish in a barrel collecting money.

I wouldn't tarnish the other Gardaí as never had any dealing with them, they could all be really hard working and honest people. Am in the UK a good bit and comparing their police force to ours, it's like chalk and cheese - have the utmost respect for the UK police and their professionalism.

Releasing this story on Thursday, being a hectic news day with McGuinness funeral and London attack really sums them up them up as an organisation - thinking they'd get minimal media coverage :rolleyes:

How the fvck is Noreen O'Sullivan still in her job

osarusan · 24-03-2017 11:03AM

Bossman guardface: Ok lads, ye 3 were on drink-driving checkpoints last night, and I need to get some numbers from ye. Fergal?

Fergal: 22 boss.

Bossman guardface: Grand. Joe?

Joe: 19 boss. Slow night.

Bossman guardface: 19. Tom?

Tom: 37,000 boss.

Bossman guardface: Great shtuff lads.

RustyNut · 24-03-2017 11:15AM

Going Forward wrote: »

You won't get too many ordinary motorists opening their mouth about anything at a checkpoint for obvious reasons. They have far too much respect.

It's a pity the Guards don't show the public the same respect.

Noddyholder · 24-03-2017 11:31AM

On RTE radio 1 now.

Your Face · 24-03-2017 11:31AM

Sound !

Noddyholder · 24-03-2017 11:34AM

Your Face wrote: »

Sound !

Yes, They don't do subtitles on the radio.:D

14,500 traffic convictions to be quashed over Garda error

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