Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Peregrine · 18-03-2017 5:56pm

Someone PM me when Louise O'Neill posts about rape culture again and there's something on-topic for this thread to discuss.

Edit: Re-opened but if the thread goes off topic again then I'm closing it for good.

JRant · 19-03-2017 11:01am

Well it seems that all it requires for rape culture to be present is a supposed accusation of harassment.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-o39neill-powerful-men-accused-of-crimes-against-women-should-fail-at-the-box-office-445543.html

RabbleRouser2k · 19-03-2017 11:05pm

JRant wrote: »

Well it seems that all it requires for rape culture to be present is a supposed accusation of harassment.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-o39neill-powerful-men-accused-of-crimes-against-women-should-fail-at-the-box-office-445543.html

She's blinded too-it's always 'the straight white man'-yet she ignores non-white folks, as well as women.

Michael Jackson-yep, everybody knows that case. Rebecca Gayheart-went to jail for manslaughter (killed a kid with her car), picked up quite a few gigs afterwards. Don King shot a guy, and stomped another guy to death over money owed.Laura Bush drove through a stop sign, and killed a classmate. Snoop dog killed a rival gang member.Charles S. Dutto killed a guy when he was 17. He's now a famous actor.

And the examples she uses are flawed-Ryder, yes the shoplifting thing was sad. But it didn't impact her career that severely, if anything it helped it-look at the movies she made before the arrest. Heigl is difficult because she insults or mocks the projects that got her noticed.

Folks get away with horrible crimes all the time-Kobe Bryant was accused of rape, stood trial for it, and yet the case collapsed because his alleged victim didn't want to testify. Bryant is far from white, yet he walked away from the case, with an unblemished, untarnished reputation. Look at Mike Tyson-same story (tho Tyson's is more questionable than Bryant's case). R. Kelly-statutory rape-yet the guy is celebrated.

And then we look at so-called 'feminists'-Paula Poundstone-accused of molesting a foster child. Amy Schumer jokes about the time she 'raped a guy' while Lena Dunham talks about how she 'forced a gay guy to make out with her'-it's in her book. Then complained when a black basketball player didn't hit on her (never mind she has a boyfriend).
And with the Depp case-she ignores how Amber Heard attacked an ex girlfriend-while Depp has not had any violence with previous girlfriend(s). And yet Heard got many high profile gigs after. Victor Salvas is a convicted paedophile, and yet he still gets work. And Singer, an openly gay man, has had numerous allegations of impropriety with young men. Yet he still makes the x-men movies.

Who is she to say we 'boycott' these people based on allegations? Rape, domestic violence, and so forth are horrible crimes-horrible. But we cannot have a trial by media/ public opinion. It's a metaphorcal flogging in public, which is all kinds of wrong.

Though I did laugh at her 'what if everyone conciously boycotted them' angle-this is the same woman who couldn't be bothered to march for 'a day without women'. She's the last person who would lead a boycott.

Widdershins · 19-03-2017 11:29pm

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

She's blinded too-it's always 'the straight white man'-yet she ignores non-white folks, as well as women.

Michael Jackson-yep, everybody knows that case. Rebecca Gayheart-went to jail for manslaughter (killed a kid with her car), picked up quite a few gigs afterwards. Don King shot a guy, and stomped another guy to death over money owed.Laura Bush drove through a stop sign, and killed a classmate. Snoop dog killed a rival gang member.Charles S. Dutto killed a guy when he was 17. He's now a famous actor.

Folks get away with horrible crimes all the time-Kobe Bryant was accused of rape, stood trial for it, and yet the case collapsed because his alleged victim didn't want to testify. Bryant is far from white, yet he walked away from the case, with an unblemished, untarnished reputation. Look at Mike Tyson-same story (tho Tyson's is more questionable than Bryant's case). R. Kelly-statutory rape-yet the guy is celebrated.

And then we look at so-called 'feminists'-Paula Poundstone-accused of molesting a foster child. Amy Schumer jokes about the time she 'raped a guy' while Lena Dunham talks about how she 'forced a gay guy to make out with her'-it's in her book. Then complained when a black basketball player didn't hit on her (never mind she has a boyfriend).
And with the Depp case-she ignores how Amber Heard attacked an ex girlfriend-while Depp has not had any violence with previous girlfriend(s). And yet Heard got many high profile gigs after. Victor Salvas is a convicted paedophile, and yet he still gets work. And Singer, an openly gay man, has had numerous allegations of impropriety with young men. Yet he still makes the x-men movies.

Who is she to say we 'boycott' these people based on allegations? Rape, domestic violence, and so forth are horrible crimes-horrible. But we cannot have a trial by media/ public opinion. It's a metaphorcal flogging in public, which is all kinds of wrong.

Though I did laugh at her 'what if everyone conciously boycotted them' angle-this is the same woman who couldn't be bothered to march for 'a day without women'. She's the last person who would lead a boycott.

''What if everyone else consciously boycotted them''

20-03-2017 12:05am

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/842772226164310017/photo/1
Cries about rape culture and this Wow

hatrickpatrick · 20-03-2017 12:20am

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/842772226164310017/photo/1
Cries about rape culture and this Wow

"Privilege" denotes that only men can be demonised for expressing their sexuality. Women can do anything they want without being criticised for it. </LoN logic>

hatrickpatrick · 20-03-2017 12:22am

LoN has a new article out in the Irish Examiner:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/powerful-men-accused-of-crimes-against-women-should-fail-at-the-box-office-445543.html

It's behind a paywall, but the headline is enough: "LOUISE O'NEILL: Powerful men, accused of crimes against women, should fail at the box office"

Key word here is "accused". Apparently the concepts of due process and innocent until proven guilty are concepts LoN hasn't come across, or just doesn't ideologically agree with.

Honestly, this is exactly the kind of "privilege" feminists go on about - of course she can advocate for taking away a guy's happiness and livelihood based on an unproven allegation, because as a woman it will never happen to her. Society only throws due process out the window when men are accused of doing something wrong.

20-03-2017 12:27am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

LoN has a new article out in the Irish Examiner:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/powerful-men-accused-of-crimes-against-women-should-fail-at-the-box-office-445543.html

It's behind a paywall, but the headline is enough: "LOUISE O'NEILL: Powerful men, accused of crimes against women, should fail at the box office"

Key word here is "accused". Apparently the concepts of due process and innocent until proven guilty are concepts LoN hasn't come across, or just doesn't ideologically agree with.

Honestly, this is exactly the kind of "privilege" feminists go on about - of course she can advocate for taking away a guy's happiness and livelihood based on an unproven allegation, because as a woman it will never happen to her. Society only throws due process out the window when men are accused of doing something wrong.

On her show about rape, she looked horrified when the (I think it was) barrister was explaining basically your innocent till proven guilty and she basically wanted it the opposite way - This doesn't surprise me

hatrickpatrick · 20-03-2017 12:30am

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

On her show about rape, she looked horrified when the (I think it was) barrister was explaining basically your innocent till proven guilty and she basically wanted it the opposite way - This doesn't surprise me

I honestly wonder how she would react if somebody put it to her that the majority of teachers in Ireland are women, and that her policies would mean that they would instantly and automatically lose their jobs if somebody who didn't like them or had a personal grudge against them accused them of sexual assault. I have absolutely no doubt that she couldn't give a bollocks about innocent men's lives being ruined (to an SJW, there's no such thing as an innocent man - we're all guilty of rape and oppression by demographic association, after all) but would she also be willing to throw women under the bus for the sake of her toxic ideology?

red ears · 20-03-2017 12:31am

I never read her articles and at this stage i'm a bit sick of the attention she is getting. She is clearly a troll and we are all helping with the clicks and therefore with her livelihood. Its Louise herself who should be getting boycotted.

hatrickpatrick · 20-03-2017 12:35am

red ears wrote: »

I never read her articles and at this stage i'm a bit sick of the attention she is getting. She is clearly a troll and we are all helping with the clicks and therefore with her livelihood. Its Louise herself who should be getting boycotted.

I've been debating this. Fundamentally I wholeheartedly disagree with no-platforming and denying people a right to air those opinions - better IMO than threatening the Irish Times and others with a lack of readership if they publish her, would be to demand that for every anti-male article they publish from a pseudo-feminist, they publish an anti-feminist article by an MRA. And the key word here is anti-feminist, not anti-woman - show these peoples' hypocrisy for what it is by playing entirely the ball and never the woman, even though they will play the man literally every time they write anything. They cannot possibly sustain any credibility once this hypocrisy has been exposed in this blatant manner.

RabbleRouser2k · 20-03-2017 12:38am

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/842772226164310017/photo/1
Cries about rape culture and this Wow

You missed the article about her saying 'it's impossible for women to be sexist against men'...

Never mind, that in the court of law, it's all too possible.

I wonder if LoN has made any statement regarding how the UK courts will no longer allow rape victims to be cross-examined.
Now they will be allowed to give a pre-recorded statement.
I find this troubling-tbh-for both the defendant and the plaintiff/ prosecution. If the testimony is pre-recorded, a rape accuser (sorry if that language is too strong, I just mean someone who accuses another of the crime of rape-I'm not saying they are lying) will obviously forget details of the crime. It's just human error, our memory's aren't perfect. One unmentioned/ forgotten detail, and the accused can leap on that, and thus create questions as to whether the person is lying or not. Likewise, if the accuser is lying, but the defendant cannot question them-then one can claim that the trial is clearly biased. I see it causing more problems than good, tbh.

osarusan · 20-03-2017 12:58am

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I wonder if LoN has made any statement regarding how the UK courts will no longer allow rape victims to be cross-examined.
Now they will be allowed to give a pre-recorded statement.

Not correct, they will still be cross-examined by the defence lawyer. It will not happen in the courtroom - instead, the video of the cross-examination will be played for the jury.

Outlaw Pete · 20-03-2017 1:21am

ivytwine wrote: »

I take your point but I think we're at risk of overstating LON etc and the NWCI's actual influence on society.

Are we? Cause I think if anything their influence is understated.

You initially said:

..most women who I know who identify as feminists are actually fairly normal people..

..which I don't doubt for a second by the way. Indeed most women that I know that identify as a feminist would be the same..... but they are not the feminists that people like Camile Paglia (and others) are complaining about.

You suggest that we might be overstating the influence of NWCI and LON (etc) but I don't agree, as they are the ones with the floor, the ear of the Government, and that are regularly being given platforms (paid for by the tax payer). Your friends are not (nor mine) and so it's neither here nor there that most women who identify as feminist are moderate as they're not the ones trying (and oftentimes succeeding) to poison the well. Which is precisely what the Christina Hoff Sommers' book 'Who Stole Feminism?' is all about.

What has changed really? The consent classes have been a flop.

The fact that they put them on is enough. Don't you think that being able to get even that far, given that they are a minority, shows that they have a disproportionate amount of leverage?

As for young women... yes that's definitely a factor. But most I think, are like myself, able to separate the wheat from the chaff, and the minority of those who can't are just immature IMO. When I was 18 I used to believe the most ridiculous things about gender and I was terribly cynical and black and white. I'm glad twitter wasn't around! Life happened and I grew up.

True, but some don't evolve and mature when it comes to their outlook. There are lots that hold tight to the views they formed in their teens and 20's. You only have to look around at western society today to see how much radical feminism in the 70's, 80's and 90's effected society and so why should we think any different about the so called feminism of today having any less of an effect?

Also the reason LON etc are given their platform in the media is because newspapers are desperate for readers and clicks. They know these articles will get people talking, and reasonable positions just don't. It's unfortunately a complete mess media wise at the moment. I used to edit for a website and some of my favourite writers who were measured and reasonable (on all sorts of topics, not just politics) didn't draw engagement the way more controversial articles did. Even if they were often not as well written.

Well, obviously editors are giving LON a platform to garner readers, but I don't see how that somehow means that her views are not been taken seriously, or that she is not having an influence with how young girls see themselves and young men. Of course they are. That she is click bait doesn't negate that. Click bait is just another way to shove propaganda down people's throats as anything that has gone before it. Perhaps one of the most powerful today in fact given that young people tend to have the attention span of a goldfish.

hatrickpatrick · 20-03-2017 1:43am

One only has to look at issues such as introduction of mandatory consent classes in universities, the blatantly and revoltingly one sided approach Twitter is taking towards harassment and hate speech, and the number of people whose reputations are being destroyed and who are being singled out for condemnation by allegation, in the total absence of conviction, to understand just how serious the SJW influence on society has become.

A rather laughable example is 2016. 2016 began with a man convicted f sexual assault (Steven Avery) being widely acquitted by social media because the liberal establishment told people to, while at the same time a man who has never been convicted of anything (Dr Luke) was pronounced guilty all over social media and demanded that part of his livelihood (his contractual entitlement to some of Kesha's musical royalties) be torn up and thrown out all because he had been accused - by somebody with an j virus monetary interest in such an accusation - of sexual assault.

Whether you're male or female, put yourself in the position of being innocent of that crime, but told that you should have millions of dollars which you have worked hard for taken away even though a judge has specifically found the allegations against you to be without merit. That's the reality of the society people like LoN are attempting to create.

RabbleRouser2k · 20-03-2017 5:54am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

One only has to look at issues such as introduction of mandatory consent classes in universities, the blatantly and revoltingly one sided approach Twitter is taking towards harassment and hate speech, and the number of people whose reputations are being destroyed and who are being singled out for condemnation by allegation, in the total absence of conviction, to understand just how serious the SJW influence on society has become.

A rather laughable example is 2016. 2016 began with a man convicted f sexual assault (Steven Avery) being widely acquitted by social media because the liberal establishment told people to, while at the same time a man who has never been convicted of anything (Dr Luke) was pronounced guilty all over social media and demanded that part of his livelihood (his contractual entitlement to some of Kesha's musical royalties) be torn up and thrown out all because he had been accused - by somebody with an j virus monetary interest in such an accusation - of sexual assault.

Whether you're male or female, put yourself in the position of being innocent of that crime, but told that you should have millions of dollars which you have worked hard for taken away even though a judge has specifically found the allegations against you to be without merit. That's the reality of the society people like LoN are attempting to create.

True, that is the society they are trying to create-but then again, it's a society that is clearly being shown to be without merit.
And more and more individuals are fighting back against it.

I'll use the analogy of Scientology, even though I know feminism is not a cult/ religion (not yet, anyways). Scientology, even up until the late 90s/ early 2000's, I would argue, was seemingly untouchable. Like, you could not make a joke or a comment about it for fear of getting sued/ harassed etc. And then slowly but surely, it's power greatly waned-their poster boys, Tom Cruise and John Travolta, were mocked and derided-the South Park episode absolute tore shreds out of them, and more and more people left the cult-we saw folks like Paul Haggis, Jason Lee, and Nicole Kidman, to name a few, leaving-and many of them saw their lives get considerably better. And this is an organisation where people were afraid to even joke about em, to an organisation where jokes about em are commonplace. They were once the power players in hollywood, and are now that annoying rash that you rub cream to once in a while.

Feminism is much the same-when studios have catered to the SJW's (Ghostbusters) the films get absolutely no traction. None. Yet shows, and films, that don't cater to feminists-they gather traction over, and over, again. Game of Thrones gets all the 'feminists' complaining-yet every time, the ratings increase, the audiences grow-and no matter the complaining, nothing they say changes the show.
Also note, there are many female celebrities who are like 'no, I am not a feminist' such as Shailene Woodley, Carrie Underwood, Katy Perry, and Sarah Jessica PArker.
It's important to note that the 'consent' classes were pushed by the student union-the colleges gave no support to the classes whatsoever-it was SJW's at work.

When genuine rapes have occurred-within countries where there is a rape culture-nay, rape crisis-the feminists stay quiet. LoN said nothing about a few recent cases-and that says so much, tbh. There are genuine countries where we NEED to tackle the culture, genuinely. Yet feminists will not. And that's shocking, tbh. Yet when people do go there to actually challenge, and try to change the rape cultures of those countries, LoN and co will sit on their chairs and claim 'it was all their work'...yet they never left their keyboards.

deaddonkey15 · 20-03-2017 1:20pm

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

On her show about rape, she looked horrified when the (I think it was) barrister was explaining basically your innocent till proven guilty and she basically wanted it the opposite way - This doesn't surprise me

Ched Evans sat in jail for 2 years and had his name dragged through the mud before being found not guilty of rape. His alleged victim didn't even accuse him of rape apparently. Just goes to show how dangerous the "guilty until proven innocent" mindset is for someone that actually is falsely accused of rape.

RabbleRouser2k · 20-03-2017 10:09pm

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Ched Evans sat in jail for 2 years and had his name dragged through the mud before being found not guilty of rape. His alleged victim didn't even accuse him of rape apparently. Just goes to show how dangerous the "guilty until proven innocent" mindset is for someone that actually is falsely accused of rape.

Yeah, apparently googled 'was I raped'-which is disturbing that was not called into question.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2149462/Brian-Banks-One-time-football-star-rape-charge-dismissed-years-prison-accuser-contacts-Facebook-say-happened.html

There was also this incident-a student who spent 6 years in prison for rape. When he was released, his accuser messaged him on facebook and added him as a friend-then said she wanted 'bygones to be bygones' and admitted he never raped her. She was caught on video saying the same thing, and thus his conviction was overturned. But his life is ruined-nay, destroyed. No matter what, people will say stuff like 'oh, he lied or claim 'internalised misogyny made her feel like he was innocent'. The accuser, Wanetta Gibson, said she wouldn't testify it was a lie, because her mom had sue his school, won 1.5 million, and didn't want to pay the money back...(a court case since has ruled she must repay 2.6 million dollars to the school).
Now, if we compare it to the Brock Turner case-Banks was given ALL the wrong advice by his lawyers, while Turner was wealthy and availed of a class based system.
Interestingly, Banks didn't cry 'white privilege'-and he could, oh golly he could have. But he did cite privliege-as in wealth based privilege.

“I would say it’s a case of privilege,” Banks said. “It seems like the judge based his decision on lifestyle. He’s lived such a good life and has never experienced anything serious in his life that would prepare him for prison. He was sheltered so much he wouldn’t be able to survive prison. What about the kid who has nothing, he struggles to eat, struggles to get a fair education? What about the kid who has no choice who he is born to and has drug-addicted parents or a non-parent household? Where is the consideration for them when they commit a crime?”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4233902/Inmates-rape-conviction-overturned-days-hes-killed.html

Or this case, where a guy was killed in prison due to a very disturbing method of conviction-an officer lied in order to gain a testimony out of him (claimed dna had been found, when it had not). And a nurse gave a testimony that 'a rape can occur without showing any signs of brusing or tearing'-she wasn't qualified to give testimony.
The person in question had his conviction overturned-but it was 4 days after he was beaten to death in prison. Now, I will admit-he wasn't exactly the nicest guy, he was on the sex offenders register, but it seems like they wanted a convction, even if he was innocent.

pumpkin4life · 20-03-2017 10:47pm

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-cruel-summer-ahead-with-no-female-festival-headliners-1.3016414

20-03-2017 11:09pm

pumpkin4life wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-cruel-summer-ahead-with-no-female-festival-headliners-1.3016414

Will she/LON have a meltdown as there's no women in the Champions Leauge (I know theres a womens soccer one but id guess theyd hardly care or notice there is one)..ffs they really are reaching for problems

It is a sad life, and it leading to bitterness, and Mullally is on about gender quotas for a music festival if there were ever first world problems this is it. The process of music festivals such as this is to appeal to those who will pay big prices to go to acts they want to see, not what Una forces them to see.

deaddonkey15 · 20-03-2017 11:27pm

pumpkin4life wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-cruel-summer-ahead-with-no-female-festival-headliners-1.3016414

Wasn't Mullaly beating that drum last summer as well?

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yeah, apparently googled 'was I raped'-which is disturbing that was not called into question.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2149462/Brian-Banks-One-time-football-star-rape-charge-dismissed-years-prison-accuser-contacts-Facebook-say-happened.html

There was also this incident-a student who spent 6 years in prison for rape. When he was released, his accuser messaged him on facebook and added him as a friend-then said she wanted 'bygones to be bygones' and admitted he never raped her. She was caught on video saying the same thing, and thus his conviction was overturned. But his life is ruined-nay, destroyed. No matter what, people will say stuff like 'oh, he lied or claim 'internalised misogyny made her feel like he was innocent'. The accuser, Wanetta Gibson, said she wouldn't testify it was a lie, because her mom had sue his school, won 1.5 million, and didn't want to pay the money back...(a court case since has ruled she must repay 2.6 million dollars to the school).
Now, if we compare it to the Brock Turner case-Banks was given ALL the wrong advice by his lawyers, while Turner was wealthy and availed of a class based system.
Interestingly, Banks didn't cry 'white privilege'-and he could, oh golly he could have. But he did cite privliege-as in wealth based privilege.

“I would say it’s a case of privilege,” Banks said. “It seems like the judge based his decision on lifestyle. He’s lived such a good life and has never experienced anything serious in his life that would prepare him for prison. He was sheltered so much he wouldn’t be able to survive prison. What about the kid who has nothing, he struggles to eat, struggles to get a fair education? What about the kid who has no choice who he is born to and has drug-addicted parents or a non-parent household? Where is the consideration for them when they commit a crime?”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4233902/Inmates-rape-conviction-overturned-days-hes-killed.html

Or this case, where a guy was killed in prison due to a very disturbing method of conviction-an officer lied in order to gain a testimony out of him (claimed dna had been found, when it had not). And a nurse gave a testimony that 'a rape can occur without showing any signs of brusing or tearing'-she wasn't qualified to give testimony.
The person in question had his conviction overturned-but it was 4 days after he was beaten to death in prison. Now, I will admit-he wasn't exactly the nicest guy, he was on the sex offenders register, but it seems like they wanted a convction, even if he was innocent.

Regarding the false rape accusations, it sounds like this poor guy is getting well and truly shafted. It's a longish read, but some shocking stuff in there.

http://watchdog.org/291268/father-fired-defending-disabled-son-campus-kangaroo-court/

It's quite possible that he did rape her, but if the story is to be believed he isn't even getting a fair chance to defend himself. The fact that he was technically raped by his accuser is completely ignored too. This is what happens when "feminists" like Louise O'Neill keep pushing this rape culture nonsense.

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

Will she/LON have a meltdown as there's no women in the Champions Leauge (I know theres a womens soccer one but id guess theyd hardly care or notice there is one)..ffs they really are reaching for problems

It is a sad life, and it leading to bitterness, and Mullally is on about gender quotas for a music festival if there were ever first world problems this is it. The process of music festivals such as this is to appeal to those who will pay big prices to go to acts they want to see, not what Una forces them to see.

I find it ironic that a lot of the male headliners for music festivals are acts which, in my opinion, have a predominantly female fan base. Ed Sheeran headlining Glastonbury this year for example. Muse and Coldplay headlining last year. Funnily enough Adele headlined Glastonbury last year also despite being a woman, and a curvy one (fat shaming?) at that. It's almost as though if you're talented and popular enough you'll be asked to headline regardless of what's between your legs.

Like you said though, it must be sad looking at everything in life in terms of gender quotas.

ancapailldorcha · 20-03-2017 11:40pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

True.

It's a pity that there isn't a clever catchy group word for people who are skeptical of feminists, MRAs, internet agenda pushers etc without having to allign themselves with another group. Basically anyone who wants to look at the world reasonably has no place on the internet anymore it seems.

I always liked "Moderate" or "Centrist".

hatrickpatrick · 20-03-2017 11:50pm

Widdershins wrote: »

I hadn't seen your edited part. Well I don't think circumcision is looked on like that.

It's legal in the West, FGM isn't. That's the issue. Infant female genitalia are afforded the protection of the state, infant male genitalia are not. This is an example of male disposability (women matter, men not so much) and is something which boys growing up are exposed to repeatedly, both from outdated sources (seeing men being left to drown in the film "Titanic") and from current sources (hearing a discrepancy of female underachievement being condemned as sexist discrimination, eg corporate ladder imbalances, while male underachievement is hailed as female accomplishment, eg exam results). Add this to the LoN brand of "feminism" which convicts all men simply by gender association and demands that every accusation ruin somebody's career (see the article I linked to over the page). Hear enough of that sh!te during your childhood and of course it's going to piss you off - how could it not?

Widdershins · 20-03-2017 11:56pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

It's legal in the West, FGM isn't. That's the issue. Infant female genitalia are afforded the protection of the state, infant male genitalia are not. This is an example of male disposability (women matter, men not so much) and is something which boys growing up are exposed to repeatedly, both from outdated sources (seeing men being left to drown in the film "Titanic") and from current sources (hearing a discrepancy of female underachievement being condemned as sexist discrimination, eg corporate ladder imbalances, while male underachievement is hailed as female accomplishment, eg exam results). Add this to the LoN brand of "feminism" which convicts all men simply by gender association and demands that every accusation ruin somebody's career (see the article I linked to over the page). Hear enough of that sh!te during your childhood and of course it's going to piss you off - how could it not?

Fair points.

Mountainsandh · 21-03-2017 12:10am

pumpkin4life wrote: »

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/una-mullally-cruel-summer-ahead-with-no-female-festival-headliners-1.3016414

I couldn't finish the article, got overwhelmed with the narrow mindedness of it.

No wonder no one wants to engage in a "conversation" with her, when she calls obvious facts and arguments "excuses".

I'd rather not have any woman featured in a festival line up, but have quality acts, than ****ty female acts because, quotas.

hatrickpatrick · 21-03-2017 12:20am

I'm pretty dismayed by the direction Una Mullally has gone in recent years, much like outlets such as The Guardian and the Huffington Post - she's incredibly nice in person and there was a time when she was fighting for everyone against the establishment. Somehow a vast number of outlets and journalists managed to get swept up into this SJW thing and now spend more time attacking people on the basis of demographic than doing what they should be doing, which is gathering ordinary people together to take on the power structures which are actually destroying our society and the planet we live on. There was a time when people like Una Mullally championed the internet as an anarchistic space untouchable by government and therefore usable by activists, whistleblowers, journalists etc to check those institutions without fear of repercussions - now, she would probably take the view that internet regulation is worth losing these incredible tools in the fight against government and corporate power, if it prevents men from making lewd remarks about celebrities and ensures that people with right wing opinions cannot air them without reprisal.

It's genuinely incredible. The transformation many of the biggest voices against injustice have undergone over the last 3-4 years - so incredible, indeed, that a conspiratorially minded person would wonder whether this is being orchestrated by those formerly the target of accountability. Set those opposed to power against one another, sow discord and mistrust, and watch them battle it out while the bankers, politicians and lobbyists of the world walk away from the mess they created unpunished.

No matter whose side you're on in this, it's incredibly depressing.

mzungu · 21-03-2017 12:53am

Mountainsandh wrote: »

I couldn't finish the article, got overwhelmed with the narrow mindedness of it.

No wonder no one wants to engage in a "conversation" with her, when she calls obvious facts and arguments "excuses".

I'd rather not have any woman featured in a festival line up, but have quality acts, than ****ty female acts because, quotas.

Aye, there wasn't much of an argument put forth in the article at all. Essentially, she would prefer a different soundtrack to a few glorified boozeups in random muddy fields during the summer months that the vast majority won't be attending anyway. Proper finger on the pulse stuff there!

Of course, if festivals had chart music, there would be a mix of both male and female acts. But, then you would have articles slamming the quality of music on the line up. There are women in music, but not in the genres that the festival crowd are into.

please helpThank YOU · 21-03-2017 1:04am

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Wasn't Mullaly beating that drum last summer as well?

Regarding the false rape accusations, it sounds like this poor guy is getting well and truly shafted. It's a longish read, but some shocking stuff in there.

http://watchdog.org/291268/father-fired-defending-disabled-son-campus-kangaroo-court/

It's quite possible that he did rape her, but if the story is to be believed he isn't even getting a fair chance to defend himself. The fact that he was technically raped by his accuser is completely ignored too. This is what happens when "feminists" like Louise O'Neill keep pushing this rape culture nonsense.

I find it ironic that a lot of the male headliners for music festivals are acts which, in my opinion, have a predominantly female fan base. Ed Sheeran headlining Glastonbury this year for example. Muse and Coldplay headlining last year. Funnily enough Adele headlined Glastonbury last year also despite being a woman, and a curvy one (fat shaming?) at that. It's almost as though if you're talented and popular enough you'll be asked to headline regardless of what's between your legs.

Like you said though, it must be sad looking at everything in life in terms of gender quotas.

very sad your post but all true. what has happened to society? I would say 90 per cent of Men would see Mr nice guy as Weakness and the will back stab you. and that figure for Women I could not answer as I am Man maybe a Women could give us that figure in percentages? My Mother all ways told us we where very good natured people . evil people take that as a Weakness. there is very evil Men/Women on this earth watch people like me and you. and try to destroy your kindness . Deceitful Toxic Men/Women who are tell evil lies like false rape reports for money notice etc They have a total lack of empathy and false rape reports is the perfect crime as you are all ways believed and very rare there is people Jailed for this crime in Ireland.

mzungu · 21-03-2017 1:04am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm pretty dismayed by the direction Una Mullally has gone in recent years, much like outlets such as The Guardian and the Huffington Post - she's incredibly nice in person and there was a time when she was fighting for everyone against the establishment. Somehow a vast number of outlets and journalists managed to get swept up into this SJW thing and now spend more time attacking people on the basis of demographic than doing what they should be doing, which is gathering ordinary people together to take on the power structures which are actually destroying our society and the planet we live on. There was a time when people like Una Mullally championed the internet as an anarchistic space untouchable by government and therefore usable by activists, whistleblowers, journalists etc to check those institutions without fear of repercussions - now, she would probably take the view that internet regulation is worth losing these incredible tools in the fight against government and corporate power, if it prevents men from making lewd remarks about celebrities and ensures that people with right wing opinions cannot air them without reprisal.

It's genuinely incredible. The transformation many of the biggest voices against injustice have undergone over the last 3-4 years - so incredible, indeed, that a conspiratorially minded person would wonder whether this is being orchestrated by those formerly the target of accountability. Set those opposed to power against one another, sow discord and mistrust, and watch them battle it out while the bankers, politicians and lobbyists of the world walk away from the mess they created unpunished.

No matter whose side you're on in this, it's incredibly depressing.

Funny and all as IT, Guardian and Huffington Post opinion pieces are, they certainly don't have the power to do that.

Besides, those bankers, politicians and lobbyists have been getting away with stuff long before clickbait came along.

RabbleRouser2k · 21-03-2017 1:09am

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Wasn't Mullaly beating that drum last summer as well?

Regarding the false rape accusations, it sounds like this poor guy is getting well and truly shafted. It's a longish read, but some shocking stuff in there.

http://watchdog.org/291268/father-fired-defending-disabled-son-campus-kangaroo-court/

It's quite possible that he did rape her, but if the story is to be believed he isn't even getting a fair chance to defend himself. The fact that he was technically raped by his accuser is completely ignored too. This is what happens when "feminists" like Louise O'Neill keep pushing this rape culture nonsense.

I think that showing he couldn't gain an erection would possibly rule out sex-but then again, that's just me. From the article tho, where it notes she 'texted from the bed of another fraternity' as well as ruling out a rape kit-she may very well have had sex that night, just not with him. Ruling out the rape kit would make me question every aspect of her story.

It seems like he is getting shafted immensely. I genuinely hope he gets justice-this seems like a horrendous case of 'guilty, until proven innocent'.

I find it ironic that a lot of the male headliners for music festivals are acts which, in my opinion, have a predominantly female fan base. Ed Sheeran headlining Glastonbury this year for example. Muse and Coldplay headlining last year. Funnily enough Adele headlined Glastonbury last year also despite being a woman, and a curvy one (fat shaming?) at that. It's almost as though if you're talented and popular enough you'll be asked to headline regardless of what's between your legs.

Like you said though, it must be sad looking at everything in life in terms of gender quotas.

The last time an irish act headlined any concert-it was Amanda Brunker-and it was so bad, rte went and edited it to make her sound like she could sing.
(Brunker then proceeded to cry victim when folks genuinely criticised her).

Yes, Una doesn't seem to understand that talent gets you these gigs, not your gender-and one has to appeal to both.
Florence and the machine headlined in 2015, for example. As did Paloma Faith. But Paloma is out on maternity leave now, and Florence is prepping a new album. So it's not all bad.

I would imagine if the festival were all women, Um and co would decry it for 'too many white chicks' or 'not enough trans women' or 'no woc'.
You can't win.

I've listened to the acts Una 'recommends' some of them are so awful...it's the reason she's not allowed present music shows (she did, once, and yeah...less said).

hatrickpatrick · 21-03-2017 1:22am

mzungu wrote: »

Funny and all as IT, Guardian and Huffington Post opinion pieces are, they certainly don't have the power to do that.

Besides, those bankers, politicians and lobbyists have been getting away with stuff long before clickbait came along.

I'm not so sure, they do have the power to fracture powerful social movements. Look at what happened in America after the primaries - people I know personally (and I've seen similar stories hundreds of times over the last year so it's not just a tiny minority) who would always have identified as left wing voted for feckin' Trump just because the SJW media and its incessant, inflammatory preaching pissed them off so much that it seemed worth putting up with him just to piss them off. And I fully believe that Brexit in the UK was affected by a similar movement - people voted for Brexit not in spite of the talking heads on the TV telling them not to, but BECAUSE they were telling them not to.

RabbleRouser2k · 21-03-2017 4:05am

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I'm not so sure, they do have the power to fracture powerful social movements. Look at what happened in America after the primaries - people I know personally (and I've seen similar stories hundreds of times over the last year so it's not just a tiny minority) who would always have identified as left wing voted for feckin' Trump just because the SJW media and its incessant, inflammatory preaching pissed them off so much that it seemed worth putting up with him just to piss them off. And I fully believe that Brexit in the UK was affected by a similar movement - people voted for Brexit not in spite of the talking heads on the TV telling them not to, but BECAUSE they were telling them not to.

Yes, the SJW's put all their cards into 'Hillary for president' then cried 'sexism' when she lost (LoN is ALWAYS going on about TRump-every second article-jebus!).
What they didn't even stop to look at was how she came across terribly on television, how she looked awkward, how they were trying to portray her as warm and friendly-when in fact there was too much evidence to show the contrary. And when folks were crying 'she's more open and honest than Trump'-we got the pneumonia thing...and that 'secretiveness' that has been a Clinton staple emerged again'-so much so that people bought into the conspiracy theories about her suffering from alzheimers, dementia etc.
The media cried sexism, yet when McCain ran for president-those who opposed him, despite his military record, cited things like 'he's 72 now, in a few years, he might DIE! (He's still alive, but that didn't stop the media hypothesizing).
Clinton looked far more unhealthy than him, Trump was older but looked in better shape (despite his MacDonald's diet).
I don't know why people cannot get over the fact 'she lost'. LoN in particular-it's been almost six months, she's still whining.

johnnyskeleton · 21-03-2017 11:21am

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

I find it ironic that a lot of the male headliners for music festivals are acts which, in my opinion, have a predominantly female fan base. Ed Sheeran headlining Glastonbury this year for example. Muse and Coldplay headlining last year. Funnily enough Adele headlined Glastonbury last year also despite being a woman, and a curvy one (fat shaming?) at that. It's almost as though if you're talented and popular enough you'll be asked to headline regardless of what's between your legs.

Like you said though, it must be sad looking at everything in life in terms of gender quotas.

Electric Picnic have sold out before they have even announced their lineup. I think it is a perfect opportunity to book as many female bands as possible because they are low demand acts and will work for 79c in the euro compared to male bands.

The festival organisers can not only stand up for equality, they can also make an extra 21% profit margin! It's a win win!

Una Mullally wrote:

An easy test to show how ludicrous the exclusion of women is from any arena is to ask yourself what it would be like if things were the other way around. If all major music festivals in Ireland had female headliners across the board, this would be seen as remarkable.

Not really no. If the most popular bands were all female then I would think it perfectly normal for this to occur.

Ultimately, the fact that the most popular bands and musicians are male is mostly a demand issue rather than supply. Both male and female music fans generally prefer male musicians it seems. Whether this is internalised misogyny or simply personal preferences is unanswerable really.

mzungu · 21-03-2017 12:50pm

So, ABBA got the whole gender equality thing bang on. I think Fleetwood Mac deserve "right on" brownie points for going from the all male ensemble of the Peter Green era, to the 3 man 2 women classic Rumours line-up. They probably should have been forward thinking enough to level it out at three of each, but it may have been the remnants of "toxic masculinity" from the Peter Green days that put the kibosh on this.

silverharp · 21-03-2017 1:18pm

its a teaser all right , why would teenage boys make it their goal to become rock stars? the opportunity to travel? they dont like office jobs?...there must be a better reason?

johnnyskeleton · 21-03-2017 4:10pm

mzungu wrote: »

So, ABBA got the whole gender equality thing bang on. I think Fleetwood Mac deserve "right on" brownie points for going from the all male ensemble of the Peter Green era, to the 3 man 2 women classic Rumours line-up. They probably should have been forward thinking enough to level it out at three of each, but it may have been the remnants of "toxic masculinity" from the Peter Green days that put the kibosh on this.

Dont forget that one of the guys was called Lyndsey. That must make them 2.5:2.5!

goose2005 · 21-03-2017 5:22pm

I know it isn't directly LON related but this Guardian critique of Beauty and Beast seemed bizarre to me

I do, however, feel bound to point out that Belle’s invention is a washing machine, a contraption she rigs up to a horse, to do her domestic work while she teaches another, miniature feminist how to read. The underlying message baked into this pie is that laundry is women’s work, which the superbly clever woman will delegate to a horse while she spreads literacy. It would be better if she had used her considerable intellect to question why she had to wash anything at all, while her father did nothing more useful than mend clocks. It’s unclear to me why anyone in this small family needs to know the time.

It seems to send the message that women, rather than solving problems, should get women's studies degrees and complain that men won't fix everything for them. I mean, the washing machine liberated more women than any number of marches or pamphlets

RabbleRouser2k · 21-03-2017 6:07pm

goose2005 wrote: »

I know it isn't directly LON related but this Guardian critique of Beauty and Beast seemed bizarre to me

It seems to send the message that women, rather than solving problems, should get women's studies degrees and complain that men won't fix everything for them. I mean, the washing machine liberated more women than any number of marches or pamphlets

Read a review in the IRish times which noted that Watson would be better served putting down a book 'on feminism' and picking up a book 'on acting'.

Many folks are noting that Watson, despite the hype, is just not that good an actress-she's the best out of the harry potter trio, but that's not saying a lot-it's not as if Radcliffe was ever that good an actor.

As far as the washing machine-where are the MRA's saying 'they are trying to rewrite history-a MAN invented the washing machine'...

But yes, seems like screaming for the sake of screaming. Wonder what she would make of discovering it was a man that invented tampons. (I found that out from a female comedienne).

21-03-2017 9:42pm

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Dont forget that one of the guys was called Lyndsey. That must make them 2.5:2.5!

Yeah but one of the women was called Stevie so it's back to 3-2.

RabbleRouser2k · 22-03-2017 12:08am

I forgot to notice how thejournal.ie has now gotten rid of their 'thumbs down' vote-leaving the thumbs up one, naturally. The reason being-actual reason?

Safe space-the journal wants to make their forums a 'safe space'... Oh dear lord.

So SJW's don't want to be thumbed down????

RabbleRouser2k · 22-03-2017 3:12am

As many have probably heard, there has been another leak of images of female celebrities-I wonder if LoN and co will find a way to tie this into the 'rape culture' myth-though many have remained quiet on the subject, at the moment.

I know the last time folks were decrying it as 'ownership of women's bodies'...never mind that those are images, not 'actual' bodies.

22-03-2017 3:13am

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I forgot to notice how thejournal.ie has now gotten rid of their 'thumbs down' vote-leaving the thumbs up one, naturally. The reason being-actual reason?

Safe space-the journal wants to make their forums a 'safe space'... Oh dear lord.

So SJW's don't want to be thumbed down????

You can also mute posters and hide comments now.

RabbleRouser2k · 22-03-2017 3:47am

511 wrote: »

You can also mute posters and hide comments now.

That's just wrong-won't be using that page again-what's the point? Discourse is important, completely.
I could understand it if the messages were of the 'I hate....insert ethnic, religious, minority group here'-but if you have an opinion you disagree with-shouldn't you be allowed challenge it?

I knew the site was going downhill-but that badly is just a joke, tbh. Wonder if this will apply to posters who criticise the Journal's owner, Denis O'Brien?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/jj-barnes/the-world-needs-angry-mot_b_15294434.html

I found this article to be quite disturbing-not for the elements she included, but for certain quotes from within-notably.

Of course we can acknowledge the men who suffer too. I hear you, I get it, and it is true that men are also abused and protecting our little boys should be as important in our lives. But men are not abused based purely on their biology in the same way as women. They are not cut, raped, sold, abused as routinely as women. And not only are men not as regularly victims of the evils of the world, they’re the ones primarily perpetrating the crimes in the first place, both against women and against other men.

Besides being article she, the author, uses to promote her work-this paragraph leapt out at me like a hot dagger.
Really? So circumcision does not count as being 'cut'? It's carried out in so-called civilised society. Boys are routinely abused, on a daily basis-even teachers who see a boy beating beaten the hell out of will just look at it and say 'oh, that's just boys being boys' (I even know a few current folks teaching who have said this to me). Girls, on the other hand...
And I don't care how many children are sold as prostitutes-primarily because one is too much. If it's more boys than girls, or more girls than boys-that is still far too many. And abuse is pretty even, tbqh. The rate of sexual abuse is higher among girls, yes, but the rate of physical abuse is higher among boys. And the statistics about 'men being more evil'...yeah, I call BS on that. We know the domestic violence rates are even keel among men and women, women being more likely to seek help.

There are more statistics in that article-but her 'anger' made me angry-for all the opposite reasons. Her statistics were haphazard at best, loose at worst.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/daniel-cieslak-walks-free-from-court-after-admitting-raping-girl-12_uk_58cbd5bbe4b0be71dcf3c3dd

This article I find troubling. For one thing, the accused believe the girl, a minor, was at least 16 (legal consenting age in the uk)-others noted she seemed closer to 20. So to completely put blame on him is a tad unfair, to say the least. The headline, 'man accused of rape walks free' is a misnomer-no force was used, there wasn't an element of danger involved. He genuinely believed she was of the age to consent (and she consented, despite her age), as did others, such as the taxi driver. In fact, he completely broke down crying when he learned she was underage. He met her at 4am that morning, in a taxi bay-most of us would assume a minor would not be out past that time.
I have no doubt that in this situation, both were victims. But for different reasons.

goose2005 · 22-03-2017 9:29pm

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I forgot to notice how thejournal.ie has now gotten rid of their 'thumbs down' vote-leaving the thumbs up one, naturally. The reason being-actual reason?

Safe space-the journal wants to make their forums a 'safe space'... Oh dear lord.

So SJW's don't want to be thumbed down????

The journal's comment sections are notoriously cancerous and are a turnoff to advertisers

Richard Hillman · 22-03-2017 10:08pm

Una Mullaly wrote: »

Story from Australia today about a man competing in a women's weightlifting competition because he identities as a woman. He of course destroyed the competition.

I think this will become a major issue in the near future (transgenders in women's sport) and it will be interesting to see how feminists deal with it.

It happened at an American amateur wrestling competition too recently. Its ridiculousness will only get highlighted by the mainstream media when it gets to the Olympics.

red ears · 22-03-2017 10:16pm

Una Mullaly wrote: »

Story from Australia today about a man competing in a women's weightlifting competition because he identities as a woman. He of course destroyed the competition.

Its absolutely ridiculous. Some balding man more masculine looking than most other men lifting a big heavy weight claiming to be a woman.

22-03-2017 10:28pm

Is Mullaley finally seeing some things are finally ridiculous

JRant · 22-03-2017 11:26pm

The National Women's Council of Ireland should be ashamed of themselves for retweeting this nonsense

https://twitter.com/nwci/status/843058871140794369

pumpkin4life · 22-03-2017 11:30pm

JRant wrote: »

The National Women's Council of Ireland should be ashamed of themselves for retweeting this nonsense

https://twitter.com/nwci/status/843058871140794369

200x200px-ZC-fdfa81f2_Jerry-Seinfeld-No-Thanks-and-Leave.gif

PhuckHugh · 22-03-2017 11:35pm

JRant wrote: »

The National Women's Council of Ireland should be ashamed of themselves for retweeting this nonsense

https://twitter.com/nwci/status/843058871140794369

Christ, that's some tripe - Does this lady actually believe what she writes or is it a pisstake? It can't be serious?

The people giving these screaming snowflakes the time and space to spew this ****e are the real problem... It's clickbait.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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