Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Buffman · 22-03-2017 02:41AM

Just on the full report timescales, as an example, Rescue 111 was lost on 1st July, 1999, and the final report was issued on 21st August, 2000. As Irish Steve said above, I would expect a preliminary report sooner if it's deemed necessary.

Slightly off topic, but regarding Rescue 111, I just want to say I'm also thinking of it's crew and their families at this time. The R116 tragedy may be reminding the R111 families and colleagues of that tragedy.

Air-Corps-Dauphin-248-at-Finner-Camp-Frank-Grealish-620x350.jpg

Air-Corps-Dauphin-248-at-Finner-Camp-Frank-Grealish-620x350.jpg

For younger people here who may not be fully aware of the loss of R111/DH248, this article has a synopsis.

Gadgetman496 · 22-03-2017 02:52AM

Psychlops wrote: »

No registration equates to the callsigns. What you had before this horrible incident was 5 Sikorsky S92's in Ireland. 1 at Sligo, 1 at Shannon, 1 at Waterford & 1 at Dublin & a spare S92 either in Shannon or Waterford ready to go to any base to act as the duty helicopter at any base that required the based one of the S92's to head to Shannon for heavy maintenance. Effectively with one spare they always had 4 S92's available 24/7/365.

When training they use their everyday callsign EG EI-ICG would be heard as that but if tasked and based at Sligo would change callsign to RESCUE118.

RESCUE115 is the callsign used by the operational aircraft based at Shannon when on a tasking.

RESCUE116-Dublin
RESCUE117-Waterord
RESCUE118-Sligo.

RESCUE115 was the first C/sign as Shannon was the 1st SAR base, then Dublin, then Waterford & lastly Sligo.

They have also been heard using the C/Sign "MEDEVAC".

Cheers,

I was unable to track any of the craft on marine traffic when entering the crafts Reg numbers or call signs and it was only when another poster pointed me towards these numbers that I was able to find them

SAR 250002897 Vessel SAR Aircraft [IE]
SAR 250002898 Vessel SAR Aircraft [IE]
SAR 250002899 Vessel SAR Aircraft [IE]
SAR 250002902 Vessel SAR Aircraft [IE]
SAR 250002901 Vessel SAR Aircraft [IE]
SAR 250000806 Vessel SAR Aircraft [IE]
SAR 250002900

I think Those numbers are MMSI numbers and I wouldn't have had a clue what they were if the user here today hadn't posted them.

I suppose what I'm saying is, how would a rookie search marine traffic for a particular SAR craft if they didn't have those numbers?

At least with a ship you have a name.

Shamrock841 · 22-03-2017 03:56AM

Psychlops wrote: »

No registration equates to the callsigns. What you had before this horrible incident was 5 Sikorsky S92's in Ireland. 1 at Sligo, 1 at Shannon, 1 at Waterford & 1 at Dublin & a spare S92 either in Shannon or Waterford ready to go to any base to act as the duty helicopter at any base that required the based one of the S92's to head to Shannon for heavy maintenance. Effectively with one spare they always had 4 S92's available 24/7/365.

When training they use their everyday callsign EG EI-ICG would be heard as that but if tasked and based at Sligo would change callsign to RESCUE118.

RESCUE115 is the callsign used by the operational aircraft based at Shannon when on a tasking.

RESCUE116-Dublin
RESCUE117-Waterord
RESCUE118-Sligo.

RESCUE115 was the first C/sign as Shannon was the 1st SAR base, then Dublin, then Waterford & lastly Sligo.

They have also been heard using the C/Sign "MEDEVAC".

Just on your last point there, I was under the assumption that the MEDEVAC callsign was the aer corps AW139 and not associated with the CG S92. I am of course completely open to correction

jetfiremuck · 22-03-2017 03:56AM

The other issue dependent on the final report is regarding insurance payout for the helicopter loss. When all is said and done it can only be Mech failure or cfit.

Gaoth Laidir · 22-03-2017 05:40AM

Shamrock841 wrote: »

If you listen to the atc recording 2 or 3 pages back you will hear the crew quite clearly state their intent (twice) to land on Blacksod and refuel

Yes, I listened to the recording. I was just wondering about the refuellers expecting them bit. I hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere.

Wanderer78 · 22-03-2017 06:05AM

Buffman wrote:

Slightly off topic, but regarding Rescue 111, I just want to say I'm also thinking of it's crew and their families at this time. The R116 tragedy may be reminding the R111 families and colleagues of that tragedy.

It's one of the first things that came to my mind when I heard of this, I regularly walk through the crash site of 111.

Tenger · 22-03-2017 08:28AM

Oscar Bravo wrote: »

R118 now heading to the search area,just airborne from Sligo

Tabnabs wrote: »

Could well be just a normal day at the office for them and SAR work continuing as usual.

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

It's business as usual for these guy's and when they can they assist in the search. It was probably 115's turn to head up from Shannon but got diverted to an unrelated call from Aran, as it was so near it took that task and I'd imagine R118 took it's place and headed to the search area.

Storm 10 wrote: »

The Air Corps Air Ambulance has been in and out a few times this week and to see people stopping their cars to watch her land and lift has certainly opened up peoples minds as to what the emergency services do and we take for granted

Ive been quite reticent to post personally on this thread. This incident has hit me a little harder than I would have expected. I didnt have any personal connection to the crew but perhaps its an artifact of the number of times I took for granted that I would always get home safely from a flight in the past.
SAR (and fire/rescue) crews go to work each shift not knowing what will happen that day. They face scenarios that others avoid. One thing that resonates with me is that fact that every day since R116 when down the other SAR heli crews have still been at their station. They are still doing their role around the country having buried 1 of their own and while still searching for 3 more.
At some point soon we will have some more info on the reason for their loss and can have a less restrained debate. And hopefully as with most aviation incidents,that info can prevent further loss of life.

Tenger · 22-03-2017 08:31AM

Shamrock841 wrote: »

Just on your last point there, I was under the assumption that the MEDEVAC callsign was the aer corps AW139 and not associated with the CG S92. I am of course completely open to correction

"MEDEVAC" can also be used by commercial airliners if they are transporting organs. It allows priority over other traffic in most cases.
ie. "Ryanair 372 Medevac" or "Shamrock 105 Medevac"

TheChizler · 22-03-2017 09:20AM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

I suppose what I'm saying is, how would a rookie search marine traffic for a particular SAR craft if they didn't have those numbers?

At least with a ship you have a name.

Generally they're the only "ship" moving over land or doing 100 knots. Very easy to find on the map if you know the general area they're operating in.

poker--addict · 22-03-2017 09:30AM

Reati wrote: »

Ireland has lost a very experienced and dedicated SAR crew. Who have saved countless lives. There is no win to be had in being "right" on this. All that matters is they figure it out and hopefully prevent it happening again.

Very true. I hope the mods could tighten up. They say no speculation but this thread is full of speculation, what is more disappointing is that the speculation seems completely uneducated for the most part- with barely a shard of evidence for the theories repeated in every second posting.

It's a shame that radar tracking and ATC associated with an event remains in the public domain following an event as it seems to fuel too much misinformation.

As someone with commercial flying experience I can tell you even the professionals tend to steer away from speculation and wait for initial and full AAIU reports. The media for the most part have been relatively ok on this matter but on high profile international aviation events they constantly push ATC recordings and write uneducated and disrectful and unhelpful content and it often stems from forum talk they read, from people proclaiming to know a think or two and putting the jigsaw together incorrectly.

Respectfully, leave the jigsaw and reciting possible scenarios to the people that know how to do it.

Storm 10 · 22-03-2017 09:32AM

Tenger wrote: »

"MEDEVAC" can also be used by commercial airliners if they are transporting organs. It allows priority over other traffic in most cases.
ie. "Ryanair 372 Medevac" or "Shamrock 105 Medevac"

I have heard Coastguard Helicopters use the call sign Medevac 115 or Medevac 118 on several occasions. Air Corps don't use the Medevac call sign any more it's now Air Corps 112

smurfjed · 22-03-2017 09:51AM

As someone with commercial flying experience I can tell you even the professionals tend to steer away from speculation and wait for initial and full AAIU reports

I have to respectfully disagree with you, professionals are more likely to initiate discussions based on knowledge based speculation. Most that i know would never read AAIU/NTSB reports unless they came up as part of CRM.

poker--addict · 22-03-2017 09:56AM

Smurf, where you are right, the key is it is knowledge based speculation.

22-03-2017 09:56AM

smurfjed wrote: »

Most that i know would never read AAIU/NTSB reports unless they came up as part of CRM.

Not in my experience, I find the ones I know reading them in depth.

22-03-2017 09:57AM

Storm 10 wrote: »

I have heard Coastguard Helicopters use the call sign Medevac 115 or Medevac 118 on several occasions.

When they have been called to an RTA or other coastguard unrelated incident they will use Medevac but also use Rescue as well.

irishgeo · 22-03-2017 10:01AM

Looks like Granuaile is in position off Blackrock. Let's hope they can get in the water today and retrieve the missing crewmen and the blackbox.

Tenger · 22-03-2017 10:46AM

smurfjed wrote: »

I have to respectfully disagree with you, professionals are more likely to initiate discussions based on knowledge based speculation. Most that i know would never read AAIU/NTSB reports unless they came up as part of CRM.

poker--addict wrote: »

Smurf, where you are right, the key is it is knowledge based speculation.

On another online source I have seen a very good "knowledge based speculation" over the last 36 hours between a VERY small number of experienced commercial pilots. (all who I know personally) It touched on technical issues, rescue efforts, personal impact, the media interest, international attention, the dangers of inference of evidence from media articles.
I could have have entered that conversation but I refrained. I typed a comment, re-read it then deleted it. I felt my contribution was not needed. What needed to be said had been said. It wasnt the forum for point scoring.

My point being that we can talk and talk, but we still have 3 brave souls lying in cold water near Blackrock, and we still have people doing their best to solve a mystery. We can debate when we have information to debate.

Macca07 · 22-03-2017 10:50AM

irishgeo wrote: »

Looks like Granuaile is in position off Blackrock. Let's hope they can get in the water today and retrieve the missing crewmen and the blackbox.

What is the sea like this morning? Is it after calming?

Veloce · 22-03-2017 11:00AM

Must not be too bad - based on MarineTraffic - the Grainuaile looks to be about 300mtrs from Blackrock at the moment.

TheBlaaMan · 22-03-2017 11:20AM

Buffman wrote: »

Slightly off topic, but regarding Rescue 111, I just want to say I'm also thinking of it's crew and their families at this time. The R116 tragedy may be reminding the R111 families and colleagues of that tragedy.

Image of R111 snipped to make quote smaller

For younger people here who may not be fully aware of the loss of R111/DH248, this article has a synopsis.

The memorial to R111 is on the main promenade in Tramore for anyone who is in the area. They are not forgotten in this part of the world anyway.

There's a blog post here with info on the tragedy and the young crew:
https://socialbridge.wordpress.com/tag/irish-air-corps-helicopter-tragedy-july-1999/

challengemaster · 22-03-2017 11:32AM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Yes, I listened to the recording. I was just wondering about the refuellers expecting them bit. I hadn't seen that mentioned anywhere.

Irish Independent article from a few days ago, but I question the integrity of their quotes from the refuellers because it doesn't fit with the timeline.

Vincent Sweeney, the principal keeper at Blacksod lighthouse, was expecting the same two helicopters to refuel. As was usual, his son Simon and nephew, Fergus, helped him to lay out the cable for a swift operation expected to take 15 minutes.

Vincent told Simon and Fergus to head home, as it would be 11pm at least before he was expecting them.
But at around 1.20am, Simon roused Fergus with an urgent message: R116 had gone down.

They had got the call that two helicopters were expected, the first at about 11pm, with the second one, from Dublin, arriving soon after. Vincent had told Fergus and Simon that the helicopter would be "another while" and so Fergus left.

At about 1.20am, he was awoken by Simon, who told him that Rescue 116 had gone down.

When the helicopter had failed to materialise, Simon and Vincent had noticed it was "very quiet", said Fergus.

"They knew what it meant and what was going to happen," he said.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/piece-by-piece-the-tragic-fate-of-rescue-116-is-confirmed-35532675.html

I find it remarkable that they "knew" so long before everyone else. As I've said previously on this thread - Shannon ATC was still trying to establish contact with R116 at 1.35am. R118 had no contact with R116 and were 100 miles west at that point. The Casa and R115 had not been dispatched at that point either, or for quite some time after I believe.

R116 also tracked 5nm south of blacksod. They clearly didn't see it with the poor visibility that night. Can you even hear a helicopter 10km away?

Anyway - This is (AFAIK) where the information about the staff at blacksod expecting them is coming from. I just find their timeline very questionable.

Sterling Archer · 22-03-2017 11:43AM

challengemaster wrote: »

Can you even hear a helicopter 10km away?

With the right wind conditions, low ambient noise, and are familiar with the aircraft sound, you could pick it out and hear it approaching from some distance out, think like Radar from "Mash"

Tabnabs · 22-03-2017 11:45AM

challengemaster wrote: »

Anyway - This is (AFAIK) where the information about the staff at blacksod expecting them is coming from. I just find their timeline very questionable.

You do realise that this is taken from a random journalist in the Indo and not a Court of Inquiry. I think you need to calm down on the amateur sleuthing and let the investigation take its proper course of action.

Mr Velo · 22-03-2017 12:04PM

Granuaile appears to be sitting to the south east of Black Rock all morning. I thought it was the west side that was the area of interest.

Storm 10 · 22-03-2017 12:20PM

Mr Velo wrote: »

Granuaile appears to be sitting to the south east of Black Rock all morning. I thought it was the west side that was the area of interest.

Taking shelter from the strong North West winds

Mr Velo · 22-03-2017 12:31PM

Storm 10 wrote: »

Mr Velo wrote: »

Granuaile appears to be sitting to the south east of Black Rock all morning. I thought it was the west side that was the area of interest.

Taking shelter from the strong North West winds

Right - well supposedly they launched the ROV at approx 9.30am this morning.

LynnGrace · 22-03-2017 12:38PM

Buffman wrote: »

Just on the full report timescales, as an example, Rescue 111 was lost on 1st July, 1999, and the final report was issued on 21st August, 2000. As Irish Steve said above, I would expect a preliminary report sooner if it's deemed necessary.

Slightly off topic, but regarding Rescue 111, I just want to say I'm also thinking of it's crew and their families at this time. The R116 tragedy may be reminding the R111 families and colleagues of that tragedy.

For younger people here who may not be fully aware of the loss of R111/DH248, this article has a synopsis.

Thanks for posting this. That incident was nagging in the back of my mind over the last few days. I am glad to see that those brave guys are commemorated thus.

I am hoping and praying that these guys can soon be returned to their families. Such a tragic loss of life, and this waiting must be agony on top of that. R.I.P. I am in awe of each and every person who literally risk their very lives to save others.

Gadgetman496 · 22-03-2017 12:39PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Generally they're the only "ship" moving over land or doing 100 knots. Very easy to find on the map if you know the general area they're operating in.

And if you don't know the general area?

I'm sure many people have an interest in SAR generally and it would be nice to be able to pinpoint them easily outside of known incidents.

Now that I have worked out which one is which, I have them setup as a fleet so can locate them handy enough. Initially though as a rookie I found it awkward enough to get the gist of it.

Sterling Archer · 22-03-2017 12:56PM

It can often be a terrible assumption (like any area really) of anyone in or interested in aviation that visitors or posters here would have a little bit of knowledge and could work out things like that out.

TheChizler post is still amusing tho

weisses · 22-03-2017 01:04PM

Storm 10 wrote: »

Taking shelter from the strong North West winds

Area of Interest is of the east of blackrock

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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