Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

tricky D · 21-03-2017 03:15PM

tricky D wrote: »

Folks can we please knock off the whinging about moderation off this thread. It just keeps on derailing an already difficult thread which under the circumstances is impossible to moderate to everyone's satisfaction. Cheers.

billie1b wrote: »

Oh, expect an infraction or ban for that!

billie1b wrote: »

You could say the exact same about your post. You're not understanding here, the feedback forum was closed to shut us up because we we're moaning about the mods/modding of the forum. Nobody is taking heed of it, so this is the only way to get it noticed. One mod in particular has started handing out bans and infractions to people for no reason, quoting posts from months ago to try justify their behaviour. Thats how pety they have gotten!

I couldn't have been clearer. Take a day off.

wexandproud · 21-03-2017 03:15PM

irish steve

have been following this thread with interest and as i am a commercial fisherman i am stunned by the tragic event . I would just like to say how disappointing it is to see people talking about human error , before the full facts are known .
I feel it would be far more appropriate to commend these crews on the thousands of successful rescues and missions of all types that they have done.

however i was just wondering , would there be any form of a beacon or 'racon' on the lighthouse that would be used as a reference point in poor visability or some type of waypoint reference that the pilots would use in planning a track while approaching blacksod .

21-03-2017 03:17PM

smurfjed wrote: »

@ GVHOT the IF for DUB RWY 16 is 12.5 nms north of the runway.

Exactly my point they have gone out as far as ERUDA to join the approach on occasion. I guess we will see what their internal procedure is when the report is published and an explanation there of.

21-03-2017 03:17PM

wexandproud wrote: »

irish steve

have been following this thread with interest and as i am a commercial fisherman i am stunned by the tragic event . I would just like to say how disappointing it is to see people talking about human error , before the full facts are known .
I feel it would be far more appropriate to commend these crews on the thousands of successful rescues and missions of all types that they have done.

however i was just wondering , would there be any form of a beacon or 'racon' on the lighthouse that would be used as a reference point in poor visability or some type of waypoint reference that the pilots would use in planning a track while approaching blacksod .

GPS waypoint that possibly corresponds with its location.

cosanostra · 21-03-2017 03:18PM

Listening to ATC archives at approx 0035

Rescue 116 "passing 4000ft now in the descent making our way into Blacksod for refueling"

This was roughly 10mins before they reached blackrock

Mech1 · 21-03-2017 03:23PM

When telling the aircraft where you want to fly to, would it be like a car type GPS with destinations preprogrammed, in alphabetical order? Could you mistakenly select the wrong destination and not notice?

Irish Steve · 21-03-2017 03:23PM

wexandproud wrote: »

irish steve

have been following this thread with interest and as i am a commercial fisherman i am stunned by the tragic event . I would just like to say how disappointing it is to see people talking about human error , before the full facts are known .
I feel it would be far more appropriate to commend these crews on the thousands of successful rescues and missions of all types that they have done.

however i was just wondering , would there be any form of a beacon or 'racon' on the lighthouse that would be used as a reference point in poor visability or some type of waypoint reference that the pilots would use in planning a track while approaching blacksod .

I'm not aware of any radio aids on Blackrock, but with the other systems that they have on board, they wouldn't as such need one, the standard navigation systems based on GPS (among other things) give them accurate fixes to about +/- 5 meters in horizontal and vertical mode, and there are then things like Radio alitimeters, that give clearance above ground below, and DME, which gives distance from a radio station, so 2 or 3 of these can be used to derive positions. Blackrock is about 12 miles off Shore, so may have been used as a point for fixing the procedure, at times it would be visible, especially from the air, there's nothing to indicate that the procedure they were using on Monday was anything out of the ordinary, given that Blacksod is a regular fuel stop, they probably have their "standard" approach pre programmed into their systems to make it easier and quicker to manage the flights.

ProfessorPlum · 21-03-2017 03:24PM

Every pilot makes mistakes. Because they are human. Certain errors can be reduced by training. Many can not. That's why we rely on other error trapping systems - SOPs, cross monitoring, design features etc. The SAR pilots will tell you that themselves. SAR pilots train properly and fully for the situations they fly in. Commercial pilots do the same. You have got to drop this notion that just because they're SAR they don't make mistakes. Its not helpful.

Any pilot who can't entertain the notion that he makes mistakes has no business flying.

vicwatson · 21-03-2017 03:27PM

Granuaile nearly at Blackrock

21-03-2017 03:28PM

Mech1 wrote: »

When telling the aircraft where you want to fly to, would it be like a car type GPS with destinations preprogrammed, in alphabetical order? Could you mistakenly select the wrong destination and not notice?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdOmqWfz0aI&app=desktop

Hopefully a useful video that is explains it far better than words will.

21-03-2017 03:30PM

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Every pilot makes mistakes. Because they are human. Certain errors can be reduced by training. Many can not. That's why we rely on other error trapping systems - SOPs, cross monitoring, design features etc. The SAR pilots will tell you that themselves. SAR pilots train properly and fully for the situations they fly in. Commercial pilots do the same. You have got to drop this notion that just because they're SAR they don't make mistakes. Its not helpful.

Any pilot who can't entertain the notion that he makes mistakes has no business flying.

Certainly would be one hole in the Swiss cheese model.

Irish Steve · 21-03-2017 03:34PM

ProfessorPlum wrote: »

Every pilot makes mistakes. Because they are human. Certain errors can be reduced by training. Many can not. That's why we rely on other error trapping systems - SOPs, cross monitoring, design features etc. The SAR pilots will tell you that themselves. SAR pilots train properly and fully for the situations they fly in. Commercial pilots do the same. You have got to drop this notion that just because they're SAR they don't make mistakes. Its not helpful.

Any pilot who can't entertain the notion that he makes mistakes has no business flying.

I am not saying that they don't make mistakes, what I am trying to keep in focus for the benefit of non aviation visitors is that the SAR community because of the very specialised nature that they operate in are training to a much higher level and much more often than any other part of the aviation community, so the potential for mistakes is significantly less than for other areas of aviation. Yes, it's still there, if this eventually turns out to be CFIT with no other factors involved, I for one will be very shocked.

eagerv · 21-03-2017 03:34PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

I'm not aware of any radio aids on Blackrock, but with the other systems that they have on board, they wouldn't as such need one, the standard navigation systems based on GPS (among other things) give them accurate fixes to about +/- 5 meters in horizontal and vertical mode, and there are then things like Radio alitimeters, that give clearance above ground below, and DME, which gives distance from a radio station, so 2 or 3 of these can be used to derive positions. Blackrock is about 12 miles off Shore, so may have been used as a point for fixing the procedure, at times it would be visible, especially from the air, there's nothing to indicate that the procedure they were using on Monday was anything out of the ordinary, given that Blacksod is a regular fuel stop, they probably have their "standard" approach pre programmed into their systems to make it easier and quicker to manage the flights.

AFAIK There is a land based AIS Beacon on the rock.

Means Of Escape · 21-03-2017 03:43PM

Reati wrote: »

A broken clock is right twice a day. Doesn't prove anything and doesn't mean it's of any use to anyone.

There is no proof either way. It's still speculation to say it was pilot error vs mechanical fault. All that they have said is some wreckage has consistency with making contact with rocks.

I'm one of the posters who didn't (and atm still don't) believe it was CFIT but admitted in posts that they likely hit / clipped the island for one reason or another.

My views will change as more evidence comes out. That's the thing that seems to be lacking here. People are more worried about how they were right with speculation than wanting to understand what went wrong and learning from it.

If it was CFIT due it disorientation I won't be making excuses for what I believed at the time. I'll be happy they found the cause and can work to make the system safer for other SAR teams and pilots in general.

Ireland has lost a very experienced and dedicated SAR crew. Who have saved countless lives. There is no win to be had in being "right" on this. All that matters is they figure it out and hopefully prevent it happening again.

Exactly. The AAIU piece is as vague as it is detailed but the AAIU have not said "they crashed into Blackrock".

Because the aviation industry is built on learning and transparency. They didn't tell "us" anything. They are detailing out some early observations about some of the wreckage found.

Couldn't care less if I'm right nor could others but you seemed to be certain that you were correct from the offset regarding the impossibility of pilot error due to SD and were crowing about it
Include Irish Steve in that with his pontifical stance and arrogant dismissal of other people's theories .

wexandproud · 21-03-2017 03:43PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

I'm not aware of any radio aids on Blackrock, but with the other systems that they have on board, they wouldn't as such need one, the standard navigation systems based on GPS (among other things) give them accurate fixes to about +/- 5 meters in horizontal and vertical mode, and there are then things like Radio alitimeters, that give clearance above ground below, and DME, which gives distance from a radio station, so 2 or 3 of these can be used to derive positions. Blackrock is about 12 miles off Shore, so may have been used as a point for fixing the procedure, at times it would be visible, especially from the air, there's nothing to indicate that the procedure they were using on Monday was anything out of the ordinary, given that Blacksod is a regular fuel stop, they probably have their "standard" approach pre programmed into their systems to make it easier and quicker to manage the flights.

thanks

I know how good the gps is as i have 2 in my own boat and i know how ais works as i have a receiver . Sometimes it seems a lot of planes are using tusker rock lighthouse as some sort of a waypoint as a lot of them change direction in the area . I just wondered if there was some sort of cross checking at a fixed point if you know what i mean

Irish Steve · 21-03-2017 03:47PM

wexandproud wrote: »

thanks

I know how good the gps is as i have 2 in my own boat and i know how ais works as i have a receiver . Sometimes it seems a lot of planes are using tusker rock lighthouse as some sort of a waypoint as a lot of them change direction in the area . I just wondered if there was some sort of cross checking at a fixed point if you know what i mean

Very possible, as I'm pretty sure they have full AIS on board, to assist with finding the specific vessel they are interested in, they for sure have AIS transmitters, as they show up on marine radar tracking. Standard procedure with all navigation systems is to whenever possible have a cross check from another system to confirm position.

21-03-2017 03:47PM

wexandproud wrote: »

thanks

I know how good the gps is as i have 2 in my own boat and i know how ais works as i have a receiver . Sometimes it seems a lot of planes are using tusker rock lighthouse as some sort of a waypoint as a lot of them change direction in the area . I just wondered if there was some sort of cross checking at a fixed point if you know what i mean

Tusker for VFR aircraft is a VRP visual reference point to turn for the UK. Above or near to it is an IFR point called DIMUS.

vicwatson · 21-03-2017 03:52PM

vicwatson wrote: »

Granuaile nearly at Blackrock

Granuaile turning away from Blackrock

wexandproud · 21-03-2017 03:55PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Tusker for VFR aircraft is a VRP visual reference point to turn for the UK. Above or near to it is an IFR point called DIMUS.

thanks for that . i thought as much , was just wondering if helicopter was doing something similar . I know how good the electronics are in even the most modest boat , can only imagine the systems used in aviation , but its hard to beat seeing some fixed reference point every so often

21-03-2017 03:56PM

vicwatson wrote: »

Granuaile turning away from Blackrock

Turned back track 243

21-03-2017 03:57PM

wexandproud wrote: »

thanks for that . i thought as much , was just wondering if helicopter was doing something similar . I know how good the electronics are in even the most modest boat , can only imagine the systems used in aviation , but its hard to beat seeing some fixed reference point every so often

You can input any LAT/LONG very easily into any FMS.

Tabnabs · 21-03-2017 04:02PM

She'll be manoeuvring quite a bit, Marine Traffic also has delays and is not "real time" (although not far out) so don't read too much into what direction she is travelling in.

ProfessorPlum · 21-03-2017 04:03PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

I am not saying that they don't make mistakes, what I am trying to keep in focus for the benefit of non aviation visitors is that the SAR community because of the very specialised nature that they operate in are training to a much higher level and much more often than any other part of the aviation community, so the potential for mistakes is significantly less than for other areas of aviation. Yes, it's still there, if this eventually turns out to be CFIT with no other factors involved, I for one will be very shocked.

I'm not so sure about your stats there. Any research I've read on human error in safety critical industries puts the incidence at roughly the same across the board. A recent look at SAFA audits showed that on audited flights, pilots still made that same number of errors - even when they knew they were being audited. The idea that SAR pilots are so well trained its unlikely that they could make errors is a dangerous fallacy. I think I've made my point, and I don't think that you're open to being persuaded on this, so I'll leave it at that. I don't know what caused this accident, but Ill not be shocked if it turns out to be CFIT. And the reputations and good standing of the crew of R116 won't be tarnished in my eyes - not one bit. Maybe the non aviation visitors to this thread are able to appreciate that too?

Reati · 21-03-2017 04:04PM

Means Of Escape wrote: »

Couldn't care less if I'm right

Sure you do but that's ok

Your edit makes that clear.

Means Of Escape wrote: »

you seemed to be certain that you were correct from the offset regarding the impossibility of pilot error due to SD and were crowing about it

I have a view, which I still have, that it wasn't a CFIT due to pilot error. I wouldn't call a post at the start "crowing" about it.

Here's the post for you where I said they didn't crash into the lighthouse, which based on the public information is still true

)

Reati wrote: »

No, because they didn't hit the lighthouse. I'm very sure the lighthouse would have a fair bit of damage if a craft of that size hit it at 175km/h.

They certainly, I'm my view, did not crash into blackrock due to human error. Something on the craft failed and took R116 down. Again as pointed out before helicopters are super vulnerable to living parts failing like a gearbox failure and have no real redundancy. If a key part of system went them the craft goes.

and

Reati wrote: »

Anyway, back down here off the high horse. I never said they couldn't make a mistake. I said it's highly unlikely and it's more likely the craft failed. Is it possible there was a pilot error due to a system failure? Of course. Is it possible they crashed due to pilot error? Of course but it's still unlikely.

Anyway, If the crew fly into Blackrock by mistake, I'd be surprised. it would be an opportunity to learn why and how to prevent it in future.

I've actively updated my views as new information goes public. Still don't buy CFIT right now but still it is of course be a possibility and no doubt the AAIU will cover it and no rule it out because I don't buy it. I'm still open to learning from it, no matter the cause as it's how we learn.

challengemaster · 21-03-2017 04:22PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

I am not saying that they don't make mistakes, what I am trying to keep in focus for the benefit of non aviation visitors is that the SAR community because of the very specialised nature that they operate in are training to a much higher level and much more often than any other part of the aviation community, so the potential for mistakes is significantly less than for other areas of aviation. Yes, it's still there, if this eventually turns out to be CFIT with no other factors involved, I for one will be very shocked.

Honestly Steve, this is just my opinion as a non-aviation visitor, but the more attention you keep bringing to the infallibility of the crew and training (especially as someone who has experience in the area) - It's like Fr. Ted trying to fix the car with the hammer. In the end you just make it worse than it ever was in the first place. And it starts to become the focus of peoples thoughts where it never was in the first place.

You know what comes up when you google CFIT? (Because I had to) Directly after the definition of it?

The pilots are generally unaware of the danger until it is too late

To me, that doesn't describe lack of training or professionalism. To me, as a non-aviation visior, my first thought is that the on-board navigation and/or warning systems failed the pilot in conditions where they were relying on them, or some other unfortunate series of events unfolded. Take into account what we already know about the cloud base @300ft, and the height of Blackrock being similar... None of it leads me to question their training or ability to fly the aircraft. I'm just left wondering what failed them and how it can be prevented again.

I can't speak for every non-aviator that visits this forum or thread, and I hope you understand I mean no offence by any of this. I think we all understand you're just trying your best to protect their legacy on this most public of forums.

Mr Velo · 21-03-2017 04:34PM

LE Eithne on her way back out now again.... must have had to go back in for something?

livedadream · 21-03-2017 05:03PM

Mr Velo wrote: »

LE Eithne on her way back out now again.... must have had to go back in for something?

perhaps picking up divers?

Storm 10 · 21-03-2017 05:14PM

Rescue 115 was heading for the search area but has diverted to the Aran Islands, now heading to Galway Hospital.

Oscar Bravo · 21-03-2017 05:16PM

R118 now heading to the search area,just airborne from Sligo

cosanostra · 21-03-2017 05:16PM

Storm 10 wrote: »

Rescue 115 was heading for the search area but has diverted to the Aran Islands, now heading to Galway Hospital.

118 on route to Blacksod bay now

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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