Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Irish Steve · 18-03-2017 07:06PM

Reati wrote: »

Not speculation to cause or what happen just a technical question for that Sar heli.

Are the comms systems tied to the electrical systems in such a way that a serious electrical failure could take out comms?

This seems a unlikely design to me but I'd be interested in knowing either way.

At this point, we can't include or exclude anything, but it's unlikely, if the S92 is similar to other types, there will be at least 3 electrical systems, one powered by the left engine, the other by the right engine, and a third system, the essential electrics bus, which is powered by either engine, and in the unlikely but possible failure of both generators, the essential bus is then kept alive by the aircraft batteries, and they have to provide power for a minimum period of time.

The S92 also has an auxiliary power unit that can be used on the ground and in the air, which can provide electrical power.

In some cases, and I don't have detailed S92 technical information, there can also be a ram air turbine that can be used to provide emergency hydraulic power, and possibly limited electrics even if all other power sources have been lost.

The radios are split across the electrical buses, so it would require a massive failure to render all 3 inoperative.

siobhan08 · 18-03-2017 07:09PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

There is an Air Corps facility there, with suitable hangar space that can be used by AAIU to lay out the pieces as required

Thanks never knew that.

Such a shame the France vs Wales games over ran and missed the Minutes Silence. Wonder if it will included in the replay when it uploaded to RTE player

Reati · 18-03-2017 07:14PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

At this point, we can't include or exclude anything, but it's unlikely, if the S92 is similar to other types, there will be at least 3 electrical systems, one powered by the left engine, the other by the right engine, and a third system, the essential electrics bus, which is powered by either engine, and in the unlikely but possible failure of both generators, the essential bus is then kept alive by the aircraft batteries, and they have to provide power for a minimum period of time.

The S92 also has an auxiliary power unit that can be used on the ground and in the air, which can provide electrical power.

In some cases, and I don't have detailed S92 technical information, there can also be a ram air turbine that can be used to provide emergency hydraulic power, and possibly limited electrics even if all other power sources have been lost.

The radios are split across the electrical buses, so it would require a massive failure to render all 3 inoperative.

Thx. That's pretty much what I'd expect of such a heli.

sjb25 · 18-03-2017 07:16PM

siobhan08 wrote: »

Thanks never knew that.

Such a shame the France vs Wales games over ran and missed the Minutes Silence. Wonder if it will included in the replay when it uploaded to RTE player

Here you go https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/videos/1822546031328925/

smurfjed · 18-03-2017 07:29PM

ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS
Two 75 KVA, 115V, 400 hz 3-phase, transmission-driven oil cooled main generators
Two 400 amp AC/28VDC convertors
35 KVA air-cooled APU-driven backup generator
100 amp AC/DC backup convertor
28VDC, 15 amp-hour battery
No RAT.

Gaoth Laidir · 18-03-2017 07:48PM

Just regarding the activation of the personal emergency beacons on contact with water, this is an excerpt from an AAIU Incident report on a S-92 SAR mission off Hook Head in December 2015. In this case the beacon activated automatically, however I wonder if there is a difference depending on whether the mission is SAR or just Top Cover.

The Winchman was deployed at 14.14 hrs via the winch with two Rescue Strops; one a Helicopter Rescue Strop and the other a Hypothermic Rescue Strop. He entered the water less than one minute later. This event was captured on the CVR by the sound of the Winchman’s SARBE* beacon, which activated on immersion.

* SARBE: Search & Rescue Beacon Equipment is a water activated beacon that transmits a radio signal on the emergency frequency when immersed.

Discodog · 18-03-2017 07:49PM

Why is comms really an issue ? A catastrophic issue would probably not allow enough time for comms. Even if the aircraft is still flying the focus is to fly. It's why I asked whether the two non flyers have access to comms ?

What seems to be lacking is a system where a fail safe buoy is ejected maybe linked or even tethered that issues an immediate distress signal & provides radio location.

AndyBoBandy · 18-03-2017 07:58PM

Discodog wrote: »

What seems to be lacking is a system where a fail safe buoy is ejected maybe linked or even tethered that issues an immediate distress signal & provides radio location.

I'd say this would be very difficult to implement on a helicopter due to the potential of spinning rotors fouling such a device.

The system would need some sort of delayed release mechanism, only releasing once the rotors have either stopped, or been shed. Or even set to release on a 5/10 minute delay (OT but a system like this could have helped locate MH370, and perhaps AF447 sooner than it was).

Discodog · 18-03-2017 08:01PM

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Just regarding the activation of the personal emergency beacons on contact with water, this is an excerpt from an AAIU Incident report on a S-92 SAR mission off Hook Head in December 2015. In this case the beacon activated automatically, however I wonder if there is a difference depending on whether the mission is SAR or just Top Cover.

Strangely I inquired about epirbs as I was thinking of getting a kayak. I asked the harbourmaster because all the locals said that you get fined for triggering one so you can't risk getting it wet.

The harbourmaster said "rubbish". He said if you trigger it then just make a quick call & say that it's a false alarm. He said that we would much rather have a few of those than people drowning.

Discodog · 18-03-2017 08:04PM

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I'd say this would be very difficult to implement on a helicopter due to the potential of spinning rotors fouling such a device.

The system would need some sort of delayed release mechanism, only releasing once the rotors have either stopped, or been shed. Or even set to release on a 5/10 minute delay (OT but a system like this could have helped locate MH370, and perhaps AF447 sooner than it was).

Horizontal ejection rearwards from the tail rotor assembly. The same system should be in aircraft. Maybe even a break away pod rather than an ejector.

Steve · 18-03-2017 08:14PM

Just a polite reminder that you are veering into speculation again. Please stay on topic and respect the thread terms of discussion.

Please feel free to start a new thread to discuss the above

Simon Gruber Says · 18-03-2017 08:53PM

I hear the moment of silence to Rescue 116 at the rugby game wasn't broadcast on TV because the previous game went long. Unfortunate, it was very nice, they had pictures of the four crew members on the big screens.

cram1971 · 18-03-2017 08:57PM

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

I hear the moment of silence to Rescue 116 at the rugby game wasn't broadcast on TV because the previous game went long. Unfortunate, it was very nice, they had pictures of the four crew members on the big screens.

Rescue 115 Shared a video on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/videos/1822546031328925/

Cloudio9 · 18-03-2017 08:58PM

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

I hear the moment of silence to Rescue 116 at the rugby game wasn't broadcast on TV because the previous game went long. Unfortunate, it was very nice, they had pictures of the four crew members on the big screens.

It was broadcast on ITV. I usually watch rugby on the UK channels as I'm not a big Ryle Nugent fan.

Bazzy · 18-03-2017 09:53PM

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

I hear the moment of silence to Rescue 116 at the rugby game wasn't broadcast on TV because the previous game went long. Unfortunate, it was very nice, they had pictures of the four crew members on the big screens.

It was shown on the 6 o clock news the full minute

I'm sure they'll show it on the 9 o clock one as well

Nice to see them being respected in such a fashion

The gutter journalism around this whole thing has been ridiculous from the main stream tabloids.

Irish Steve · 18-03-2017 11:29PM

Enough is enough. I have spent most of the day monitoring posts on this thread, and now people have had chance to come home from a few jars (or so it seems) the aggravations are starting again. I am not prepared to spend the rest of this evening dealing with people who choose to ignore the very simple guidelines that have been put into place. On that basis, the thread is yet again being closed for now, and I am not going to reopen it without some clear guidance from the Boards.ie admins about what is, or is not, acceptable conduct. It is unfortunately very clear that a number of people on here are not prepared to accept or recognise the significant commitment that the moderators make to keeping the threads here in some sort of order. So be it

Irish Steve · 19-03-2017 10:50AM

The thread is back, and while the rules have not changed from the basis rules that are outlined in the forum charter, and the various moderation messages and guidelines that have already been posted in this thread, I am going to restate them so that there is no confusion.

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Cianmcliam · 19-03-2017 11:00AM

Granuaile was stopped just off Black Rock this morning, now making its way to Blacksod.

Oscar Bravo · 19-03-2017 11:01AM

R118 en route to the area now following an improvement in the weather this morning

Storm 10 · 19-03-2017 12:03PM

Just a thought here guys would a Royal Navy Merlin that carry equipment to locate a submarine that they lower into the sea be any use in Blacksod , it would not be weather dependent as they could hover around the Island with the device lowered into the sea, any thoughts on this

Cianmcliam · 19-03-2017 12:27PM

Storm 10 wrote: »

Just a thought here guys would a Royal Navy Merlin that carry equipment to locate a submarine that they lower into the sea be any use in Blacksod , it would not be weather dependent as they could hover around the Island with the device lowered into the sea, any thoughts on this

They sound confident enough about where the main wreckage is, the Celtic Explorer was there a few days ago. They need to map all obstacles before sending down divers or an ROV to inspect it.

Storm 10 · 19-03-2017 01:15PM

Eithne and a two small boats near Blackrock now

martinsvi · 19-03-2017 01:26PM

faoiarvok wrote: »

The IRCG S92s are fitted with EGPWS (Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System) which scans below and in front of the aircraft using a radar to warn pilots that they are approaching terrain, even if the terrain is not recorded in the navigation database.

The EGPWS system uses a high resolution digital database within the navigation system of the aircraft and the current GPS position to confirm that the aircraft is not flying into danger, but unless the specification of EGPWS has changed in recent times, it is NOT radar based

My mistake, I misread the Skybrary page: http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Terrain_Avoidance_and_Warning_System_(TAWS)

you were not far from truth, ICG S92s are fitted with Honeywell Primus 701A radar which incorporates weather and ground/sea mapping functions. They are also equipped with FLIR cameras that can be used to see through the weather. I think we can safely put the "Blackrock missing on map" speculation to bed.

Also, let's keep in mind that its a lighthouse. I feel that some posters have missed the fact that those things emit light during night time to make sailors/aviators aware of impeding terrain. I know the visibility wasn't the best at the time of incident, but those things can still penetrate through quite a lot of fog - that's how they're designed, that's their purpose.

faoiarvok · 19-03-2017 02:03PM

martinsvi wrote: »

you were not far from truth, ICG S92s are fitted with Honeywell Primus 701A radar which incorporates weather and ground/sea mapping functions.

Thanks, just saw that on this Flying in Ireland article: https://flyinginireland.com/2015/03/irish-coast-guard-enhancing-capabilities/

It also details that the moving map displayed is by Euronav

murphaph · 19-03-2017 02:03PM

martinsvi wrote: »

Also, let's keep in mind that its a lighthouse. I feel that some posters have missed the fact that those things emit light during night time to make sailors/aviators aware of impeding terrain. I know the visibility wasn't the best at the time of incident, but those things can still penetrate through quite a lot of fog - that's how they're designed, that's their purpose.

Blackrock seems to have a 24s period with nominal range of 24 miles (in clear visibility). In fog it's quite conceivable the crew did not see it. Lighthouses are not for aviation at all. They are for relatively slow moving sea vessels that can go nowhere near as fast as an aircraft and are generally looking out for a specific lighthouse on their chart (much less so nowadays with GPS however) to get their bearings. I did a pleasure craft operators license course/test and we learned basic navigation, which involves looking out for landmarks like lighthouses and buoys and using triangulation to work out where you are.

Edit: it's 12s but I think the point still stands.

smurfjed · 19-03-2017 02:07PM

Also considering that the landing site on Blackrock isn't apparently large enough for the S92, it leads to multiple questions that at this stage can only be answered by speculation !

Irish Steve · 19-03-2017 02:12PM

Right now, they can't be answered in the absence of the data from the flight data recorder, which should provide some clarity, albeit not for some considerable time.

coillsaille · 19-03-2017 02:23PM

Rescue 118 called away from search area and tasked to a capsized dive boat near Sligo.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eight-rescued-off-sligo-coast-after-dive-boat-capsizes-1.3016344

Water John · 19-03-2017 02:36PM

That seems to have been resolved, safely thankfully. 2 taken to hospital.

JCX BXC · 19-03-2017 02:44PM

Weather is quite severe still, hope all rescue crews keep themselves safe first of all before attempting anything else.