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Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

sparrowcar

Contact lost just before 0100 off the west coast of Achill island on a rescue mission.
Search in progress including all available ships and Rescue 115.

Hopefully a positive outcome to this.

Please keep replies civil, and respectful of the crew and their families.

Please do not speculate as to any cause unless you have a factual basis to do so (and can back it up with information released to the public).

There will be zero tolerance for troublemakers or those that choose to ignore these guidelines.

There are other moderator messages in the thread, as a result of issues that have arisen, and we will be less forgiving going forward, due to the ongoing sensitivity of this incident

As per normal boards guidance, any comments on moderation are off topic and should be addressed directly to mods or cmods by PM. Any part of posts which are off topic in such a manner may be edited or removed, with possible sanction. Non news posts will be moved to the parallel R116 Non news and discussion thread

Should any new reports, updates or news stories come out, posts which can be boiled down to "I Told You So" or other triumphalism about previous commentary will result in significant punishment.

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Irish Steve

Reati wrote: »

Not speculation to cause or what happen just a technical question for that Sar heli.

Are the comms systems tied to the electrical systems in such a way that a serious electrical failure could take out comms?

This seems a unlikely design to me but I'd be interested in knowing either way.

At this point, we can't include or exclude anything, but it's unlikely, if the S92 is similar to other types, there will be at least 3 electrical systems, one powered by the left engine, the other by the right engine, and a third system, the essential electrics bus, which is powered by either engine, and in the unlikely but possible failure of both generators, the essential bus is then kept alive by the aircraft batteries, and they have to provide power for a minimum period of time.

The S92 also has an auxiliary power unit that can be used on the ground and in the air, which can provide electrical power.

In some cases, and I don't have detailed S92 technical information, there can also be a ram air turbine that can be used to provide emergency hydraulic power, and possibly limited electrics even if all other power sources have been lost.

The radios are split across the electrical buses, so it would require a massive failure to render all 3 inoperative.

siobhan08

Irish Steve wrote: »

There is an Air Corps facility there, with suitable hangar space that can be used by AAIU to lay out the pieces as required

Thanks never knew that.

Such a shame the France vs Wales games over ran and missed the Minutes Silence. Wonder if it will included in the replay when it uploaded to RTE player

Reati

Irish Steve wrote: »

At this point, we can't include or exclude anything, but it's unlikely, if the S92 is similar to other types, there will be at least 3 electrical systems, one powered by the left engine, the other by the right engine, and a third system, the essential electrics bus, which is powered by either engine, and in the unlikely but possible failure of both generators, the essential bus is then kept alive by the aircraft batteries, and they have to provide power for a minimum period of time.

The S92 also has an auxiliary power unit that can be used on the ground and in the air, which can provide electrical power.

In some cases, and I don't have detailed S92 technical information, there can also be a ram air turbine that can be used to provide emergency hydraulic power, and possibly limited electrics even if all other power sources have been lost.

The radios are split across the electrical buses, so it would require a massive failure to render all 3 inoperative.

Thx. That's pretty much what I'd expect of such a heli.

sjb25

siobhan08 wrote: »

Thanks never knew that.

Such a shame the France vs Wales games over ran and missed the Minutes Silence. Wonder if it will included in the replay when it uploaded to RTE player

Here you go https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/videos/1822546031328925/

smurfjed

ELECTRICAL SYSTEMS
Two 75 KVA, 115V, 400 hz 3-phase, transmission-driven oil cooled main generators
Two 400 amp AC/28VDC convertors
35 KVA air-cooled APU-driven backup generator
100 amp AC/DC backup convertor
28VDC, 15 amp-hour battery
No RAT.

Gaoth Laidir

Just regarding the activation of the personal emergency beacons on contact with water, this is an excerpt from an AAIU Incident report on a S-92 SAR mission off Hook Head in December 2015. In this case the beacon activated automatically, however I wonder if there is a difference depending on whether the mission is SAR or just Top Cover.

The Winchman was deployed at 14.14 hrs via the winch with two Rescue Strops; one a Helicopter Rescue Strop and the other a Hypothermic Rescue Strop. He entered the water less than one minute later. This event was captured on the CVR by the sound of the Winchman’s SARBE* beacon, which activated on immersion.

* SARBE: Search & Rescue Beacon Equipment is a water activated beacon that transmits a radio signal on the emergency frequency when immersed.

Discodog

Why is comms really an issue ? A catastrophic issue would probably not allow enough time for comms. Even if the aircraft is still flying the focus is to fly. It's why I asked whether the two non flyers have access to comms ?

What seems to be lacking is a system where a fail safe buoy is ejected maybe linked or even tethered that issues an immediate distress signal & provides radio location.

AndyBoBandy

Discodog wrote: »

What seems to be lacking is a system where a fail safe buoy is ejected maybe linked or even tethered that issues an immediate distress signal & provides radio location.

I'd say this would be very difficult to implement on a helicopter due to the potential of spinning rotors fouling such a device.

The system would need some sort of delayed release mechanism, only releasing once the rotors have either stopped, or been shed. Or even set to release on a 5/10 minute delay (OT but a system like this could have helped locate MH370, and perhaps AF447 sooner than it was).

Discodog

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Just regarding the activation of the personal emergency beacons on contact with water, this is an excerpt from an AAIU Incident report on a S-92 SAR mission off Hook Head in December 2015. In this case the beacon activated automatically, however I wonder if there is a difference depending on whether the mission is SAR or just Top Cover.

Strangely I inquired about epirbs as I was thinking of getting a kayak. I asked the harbourmaster because all the locals said that you get fined for triggering one so you can't risk getting it wet.

The harbourmaster said "rubbish". He said if you trigger it then just make a quick call & say that it's a false alarm. He said that we would much rather have a few of those than people drowning.

Discodog

AndyBoBandy wrote: »

I'd say this would be very difficult to implement on a helicopter due to the potential of spinning rotors fouling such a device.

The system would need some sort of delayed release mechanism, only releasing once the rotors have either stopped, or been shed. Or even set to release on a 5/10 minute delay (OT but a system like this could have helped locate MH370, and perhaps AF447 sooner than it was).

Horizontal ejection rearwards from the tail rotor assembly. The same system should be in aircraft. Maybe even a break away pod rather than an ejector.

Steve

Just a polite reminder that you are veering into speculation again. Please stay on topic and respect the thread terms of discussion.

Please feel free to start a new thread to discuss the above

Simon Gruber Says

I hear the moment of silence to Rescue 116 at the rugby game wasn't broadcast on TV because the previous game went long. Unfortunate, it was very nice, they had pictures of the four crew members on the big screens.

cram1971

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

I hear the moment of silence to Rescue 116 at the rugby game wasn't broadcast on TV because the previous game went long. Unfortunate, it was very nice, they had pictures of the four crew members on the big screens.

Rescue 115 Shared a video on Facebook

https://www.facebook.com/SAR115/videos/1822546031328925/

Cloudio9

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

I hear the moment of silence to Rescue 116 at the rugby game wasn't broadcast on TV because the previous game went long. Unfortunate, it was very nice, they had pictures of the four crew members on the big screens.

It was broadcast on ITV. I usually watch rugby on the UK channels as I'm not a big Ryle Nugent fan.

Bazzy

Simon Gruber Says wrote: »

I hear the moment of silence to Rescue 116 at the rugby game wasn't broadcast on TV because the previous game went long. Unfortunate, it was very nice, they had pictures of the four crew members on the big screens.

It was shown on the 6 o clock news the full minute

I'm sure they'll show it on the 9 o clock one as well

Nice to see them being respected in such a fashion

The gutter journalism around this whole thing has been ridiculous from the main stream tabloids.

Irish Steve

Enough is enough. I have spent most of the day monitoring posts on this thread, and now people have had chance to come home from a few jars (or so it seems) the aggravations are starting again. I am not prepared to spend the rest of this evening dealing with people who choose to ignore the very simple guidelines that have been put into place. On that basis, the thread is yet again being closed for now, and I am not going to reopen it without some clear guidance from the Boards.ie admins about what is, or is not, acceptable conduct. It is unfortunately very clear that a number of people on here are not prepared to accept or recognise the significant commitment that the moderators make to keeping the threads here in some sort of order. So be it

Irish Steve

The thread is back, and while the rules have not changed from the basis rules that are outlined in the forum charter, and the various moderation messages and guidelines that have already been posted in this thread, I am going to restate them so that there is no confusion.

At this time, while the remains of the rest of the crew of R116 have not been recovered, there will be NO speculation in this thread about how or why the accident occurred. It is disrespectful and inappropriate while the family and relatives of the crew are suffering the pain that they are.

If you must speculate, there are other places where you can continue that speculation, if they let you, I have seen some of the parallel posts that have been made here and elsewhere, we cannot regulate what other sites will or will not accept, we can and will moderate this thread in line with the guidelines already laid down, and confirmed by the site administrators overnight.

This thread is for discussion of the R116 accident. While some leeway will be given for off topic posts, that leeway will be less than it was, and that is partly to ensure that the vast number of visitors to the site (they outnumber members by at least a 4 to 1 ratio) find the information they are looking for.

Several posts have been made about information that is not in the public domain. If you post information that is not in the public domain, you can expect to be asked to validate the source, and that is to ensure that we do not become the Irish equivalent of Wikileaks, and to ensure that we do not become the source of "False News", which is an unfortunate result of the vacuum of real news, and the desperation of some people for instant news gratification. To the best of our ability, this site will not facilitate such false news.

Comments about moderation in this thread will get a ban. Simple, and straightforward, and within Boards.ie rules. If you are not happy with the way that this thread is being moderated, there are 2 ways to deal with that. The first is to send a private message to one of the category moderators, or to post a message in the feedback forum.

In the last few days, 3 people have received temporary bans as a result of posts here, and one person has been site banned for a month by Boards.ie administration {not me) for a number of breaches of the rules that he agreed to when he signed up, after he came to their attention following a 1 week ban from me for inappropriate activity in this thread.

None of the above is new, or onerous, and is only restating the rules that you agreed to when you signed up to use the Boards.ie site.

Bluntly, if you don't like it, then I suggest you use the door and find a site where your attitude will be acceptable, if you can.

Cianmcliam

Granuaile was stopped just off Black Rock this morning, now making its way to Blacksod.

Oscar Bravo

R118 en route to the area now following an improvement in the weather this morning

Storm 10

Just a thought here guys would a Royal Navy Merlin that carry equipment to locate a submarine that they lower into the sea be any use in Blacksod , it would not be weather dependent as they could hover around the Island with the device lowered into the sea, any thoughts on this

Cianmcliam

Storm 10 wrote: »

Just a thought here guys would a Royal Navy Merlin that carry equipment to locate a submarine that they lower into the sea be any use in Blacksod , it would not be weather dependent as they could hover around the Island with the device lowered into the sea, any thoughts on this

They sound confident enough about where the main wreckage is, the Celtic Explorer was there a few days ago. They need to map all obstacles before sending down divers or an ROV to inspect it.

Storm 10

Eithne and a two small boats near Blackrock now

martinsvi

faoiarvok wrote: »

The IRCG S92s are fitted with EGPWS (Enhanced Ground Proximity Warning System) which scans below and in front of the aircraft using a radar to warn pilots that they are approaching terrain, even if the terrain is not recorded in the navigation database.

The EGPWS system uses a high resolution digital database within the navigation system of the aircraft and the current GPS position to confirm that the aircraft is not flying into danger, but unless the specification of EGPWS has changed in recent times, it is NOT radar based

My mistake, I misread the Skybrary page: http://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Terrain_Avoidance_and_Warning_System_(TAWS)

you were not far from truth, ICG S92s are fitted with Honeywell Primus 701A radar which incorporates weather and ground/sea mapping functions. They are also equipped with FLIR cameras that can be used to see through the weather. I think we can safely put the "Blackrock missing on map" speculation to bed.

Also, let's keep in mind that its a lighthouse. I feel that some posters have missed the fact that those things emit light during night time to make sailors/aviators aware of impeding terrain. I know the visibility wasn't the best at the time of incident, but those things can still penetrate through quite a lot of fog - that's how they're designed, that's their purpose.

faoiarvok

martinsvi wrote: »

you were not far from truth, ICG S92s are fitted with Honeywell Primus 701A radar which incorporates weather and ground/sea mapping functions.

Thanks, just saw that on this Flying in Ireland article: https://flyinginireland.com/2015/03/irish-coast-guard-enhancing-capabilities/

It also details that the moving map displayed is by Euronav

murphaph

martinsvi wrote: »

Also, let's keep in mind that its a lighthouse. I feel that some posters have missed the fact that those things emit light during night time to make sailors/aviators aware of impeding terrain. I know the visibility wasn't the best at the time of incident, but those things can still penetrate through quite a lot of fog - that's how they're designed, that's their purpose.

Blackrock seems to have a 24s period with nominal range of 24 miles (in clear visibility). In fog it's quite conceivable the crew did not see it. Lighthouses are not for aviation at all. They are for relatively slow moving sea vessels that can go nowhere near as fast as an aircraft and are generally looking out for a specific lighthouse on their chart (much less so nowadays with GPS however) to get their bearings. I did a pleasure craft operators license course/test and we learned basic navigation, which involves looking out for landmarks like lighthouses and buoys and using triangulation to work out where you are.

Edit: it's 12s but I think the point still stands.

smurfjed

Also considering that the landing site on Blackrock isn't apparently large enough for the S92, it leads to multiple questions that at this stage can only be answered by speculation !

Irish Steve

Right now, they can't be answered in the absence of the data from the flight data recorder, which should provide some clarity, albeit not for some considerable time.

coillsaille

Rescue 118 called away from search area and tasked to a capsized dive boat near Sligo.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/eight-rescued-off-sligo-coast-after-dive-boat-capsizes-1.3016344

Water John

That seems to have been resolved, safely thankfully. 2 taken to hospital.

JCX BXC

Weather is quite severe still, hope all rescue crews keep themselves safe first of all before attempting anything else.