Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

Henry Ford III · 16-03-2017 01:19PM

TallGlass wrote: »

Henry, I get what your saying but you've to remember this is a discussion site after all. Alot of people on here would much rather read something here than a newspaper. I don't think anyone is saying 'x brought it down' more so it could have been this or that. People are in shock and the main question on everyone's mind I think is 'how could this have happened', the sooner it's known the better, what ever way the report finishes be it a fault with aircraft/policy/regulation/training we may be able to stop another accident from happening.

Discussion is fine, but unhelpful guesswork is still unhelpful, particularly in this context.

Avoiding another accident would be wonderful, but we'll have to wait for official confirmation of what actually happened to even be in a position to see how to do so.

I appreciate folk are shocked at these events but quick answers to what happened will simply not be available.

Alkers · 16-03-2017 01:26PM

roadmaster wrote: »

i hope this will not come across bad. But who now covers the East coast. Is it as simple and cold that CHC have a contact with the Dept of transport and the spare S92 will be sent to Dublin to take up station or due to the awful events would the Air corps AW139 that is fitted out for SAR would now cover the east coast until the coastguard can get back up and running at Dublin?

It would be my opinion that CHC have the contract and should have business contingency plans in place to cover eventualities including the loss of an aircraft.

How mission-ready are the AC to slot into the role covering the East Coast? As I mentioned above, they have not got the skills and experience in maritime rescue since CHC were awarded the Contract.

sjb25 · 16-03-2017 01:29PM

Simona1986 wrote: »

It would be my opinion that CHC have the contract and should have business contingency plans in place to cover eventualities including the loss of an aircraft.

How mission-ready are the AC to slot into the role covering the East Coast? As I mentioned above, they have not got the skills and experience in maritime rescue since CHC were awarded the Contract.

Coastguard helicopter in Waterford would be providing cover and possibly a spare one in Dublin also coast gaurs helicopters from UK could cover us if required I'd say

spookwoman · 16-03-2017 01:30PM

They have a spare helicopter http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/backup-helicopter-available-to-coast-guard-1.3012198

Discodog · 16-03-2017 01:31PM

According to an interview on the radio, the search area for the black box is "about the size of a football pitch". I am sure that they will do everything possible to recover it before the weather becomes impossible. Or at least get it's position secured.

They won't want it being battered & possibly lost during the incoming weather.

STB. · 16-03-2017 01:32PM

roadmaster wrote: »

i hope this will not come across bad. But who now covers the East coast. Is it as simple and cold that CHC have a contact with the Dept of transport and the spare S92 will be sent to Dublin to take up station or due to the awful events would the Air corps AW139 that is fitted out for SAR would now cover the east coast until the coastguard can get back up and running at Dublin?

The contract is for 5 S92's.

The Westlands are not configured for SAR.

spookwoman wrote: »

They have a spare helicopter http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/backup-helicopter-available-to-coast-guard-1.3012198

I think the point the poster was making is that there is no spare S92 to rotate as one has been lost to this awful tragedy.

skallywag · 16-03-2017 01:37PM

I worked with IHL at a time when we were providing SAR cover via 61s. There was still a heavy AC link though at the time considering that a huge percentage of both the flying and engineering staff at IHL were ex-AC. It was also the case that it was very normal to have AC choppers in the hangar at the time for overhaul or other heavy maintenance.

The coverage provided at this time was of course much limited though, with one 61 fully operational out of Shannon, and another available as backup.

My heartfelt condolences to the crew of 116 and to those closely connected to the crew and aircraft at CHC. It's something which you really hope that you never have to deal with during a career in aviation.

Gadgetman496 · 16-03-2017 01:38PM

spookwoman wrote: »

They have a spare helicopter http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/backup-helicopter-available-to-coast-guard-1.3012198

Does that spare helicopter have a crew or will a new crew need to be arranged also?

Lady is a tramp · 16-03-2017 01:49PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Does that spare helicopter have a crew or will a new crew need to be arranged also?

Wow ... that's incredibly insensitive, considering three people haven't even been recovered yet.

spookwoman · 16-03-2017 01:50PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Does that spare helicopter have a crew or will a new crew need to be arranged also?

I don't know I presume they would have a standby crew for holidays etc. I don't know their setup or how they rotate.

Calina · 16-03-2017 01:57PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Does that spare helicopter have a crew or will a new crew need to be arranged also?

Wow ... that's incredibly insensitive, considering three people haven't even been recovered yet.

I don't think I agree. Given the business they are in they have to be and are practical. It is not as if the crew of 118 went into a decline. They got on and did their jobs despite the fact it was their own cover they were looking for.

The wider population benefits by understanding how these things work. So yes, it is a reasonable query to try and understand the contingency planning involved. We have professional people doing it and they will have plans to deal with the loss of an aircraft or a crew. It is good for people to understand that even if the worst happens, our rescue services still have our back. And to understand how.

ED E · 16-03-2017 01:57PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Wow ... that's incredibly insensitive, considering three people haven't even been recovered yet.

Its not really.

One S92 can get several shouts per day, and for them a shout is pretty much a life. Their value is so huge even after a tragedy we cant do without them.

ThisRegard · 16-03-2017 01:59PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Wow ... that's incredibly insensitive, considering three people haven't even been recovered yet.

It's not at all insensitive.

Negative_G · 16-03-2017 02:16PM

The AC still maintain a, albeit quite limited, SAR capability. They often conduct both wet and dry winching exercises which are publicised via social media. While they have lost many pilots and aircrew to retirements since the SAR era, it would be incorrect to say they cannot provide that function.

The AW139 can be equipped at short notice with a full winching system. The Air Corps have this equipment at their disposal and again it can be seen on social media.

I would imagine that the AC are providing a limited service to the east coast until such time as normal service resumes.

There was a case, several years ago where a 139 happened to be training in Dublin bay and was tasked to a live rescue which it completed successfully. I can't find a link at this time unfortunately.

The capability is there but the reality is that SAR is not a primary role for heli wing.

I would agree with other posters that given the size of the contract a fixed wing asset should be provided by CHC to cover all eventualities. I am not sure whether CHC have anything like this in place globally though.

nelly17 · 16-03-2017 02:20PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Wow ... that's incredibly insensitive, considering three people haven't even been recovered yet.

Its a question I was wondering too - as much as recovering these heroes is important so is the ability to continue to save lives

The Black Oil · 16-03-2017 02:27PM

Is the call sign retired after a tragedy like this?

skallywag · 16-03-2017 02:33PM

Negative_G wrote: »

I would agree with other posters that given the size of the contract a fixed wing asset should be provided by CHC to cover all eventualities. I am not sure whether CHC have anything like this in place globally though.

I would be very surprised if any private helicopter company that offers SAR services would also actively maintain and operate fixed-wing assets for the sole purpose of providing cover. If such a service was to be provided I would imagine that it would be outsourced, with the most suitable candidate for taking it up possibly being the military. Who knows, perhaps CHC are paying each time the AC provides cover?

Irish Steve · 16-03-2017 02:39PM

I have just deleted a significant number of posts relating to the costs of rescuing non nationals. I do not want to see this subject raised again in this thread, and (more) bans will be issued if there is a repeat.

If someone posts something inappropriate, please DO NOT respond in thread, but report the post. We may not be able to deal with it instantly as we are thin on the ground at the moment, and there is this unfortunate issue of the day job that has to be dealt with, but we WILL respond to posts that are inappropriate.

I should perhaps remind the members that post here that there is a much higher number of visitors reading the threads, and the posts here will be being read by the press, and others, and I for one do not want a post from this thread to become the basis of a report in a wider media stream if we cannot be sure that the information provided is accurate and genuine.

Raging_Ninja · 16-03-2017 02:42PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Wow ... that's incredibly insensitive, considering three people haven't even been recovered yet.

People are not going to stop getting into difficulty because a SAR crew has been lost. It's a desperately sad set of circumstances but the service has to be maintained and a new crew will have to be brought on board as soon as possible.

Gadgetman496 · 16-03-2017 02:43PM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Wow ... that's incredibly insensitive, considering three people haven't even been recovered yet.

Ah, get off you moral horse will you.

These people are highly trained devoted professionals and their vocation is to save lives even if it means putting their own at risk.

The service is of critical importance and needs to be available regardless of the current tragic circumstances.

The existence of a spare craft is testament to that.

My question was not in anyway insensitive, It's a life saving service and if it has a spare craft, that craft needs a crew.

So it is very reasonable to ask if a full highly trained crew is available to man the spare craft. They are so specialised in what they do, I'd imagine it might be difficult to pull a full crew out of thin air at very short notice?

Remember, a spare craft designed to replace a craft scheduled for maintenance would not normally need a crew, the crew from the craft due for service would be ready to man the spare craft. Unfortunately this is not the case in this situation.

There may well be individuals available to cover vacations or sick leave etc but a full crew is a big ask so my question is very relevant.

You can be sure that the dedicated crew of 116 would want the service to continue.

Negative_G · 16-03-2017 02:47PM

skallywag wrote: »

I would be very surprised if any private helicopter company that offers SAR services would also actively maintain and operate fixed-wing assets for the sole purpose of providing cover. If such a service was to be provided I would imagine that it would be outsourced, with the most suitable candidate for taking it up possibly being the military. Who knows, perhaps CHC are paying each time the AC provides cover?

You are quite possibly right, as I said I don't know of any other example whereby a private operator utilises a fixed wing aircraft solely for top cover.

I cant think of many nations who have such a large maritime area of responsibility who lack proper adequate levels of dedicated naval and air assets. The naval service have gotten several new ships in recent times but they are just replacing the fleet so while they are upgrading with more capable modern vessels they they are not increasing the fleet size.

The Casa's were purchased in 1994 with the help of the EU. At this stage you would have to think they are starting to show their age after spending 23 years slugging it around over the Atlantic. Having two is entirely unsuitable for the area we are responsible for as well.

Their upgrade is mentioned in the White Paper but then again, so is the Cessna replacement and there has been no movement on that front either it seems.

As for who pays for it, I have no idea. I can't envisage CHC paying for the service. I would imagine that it is an agreement between Dept of Transport and Defence and was included in the contract as such.

The lack of a Casa is definitely gaining traction in the media. But like everything else, the Dept of Defence will put their heads in the sand and wait for it to blow over. Just like they did with the same issue a few weeks ago regarding organ transplants/harvests.

sjb25 · 16-03-2017 02:51PM

Gadgetman496 wrote: »

Ah, get off you moral horse will you.

These people are highly trained devoted professionals and their vocation is to save lives even if it means putting their own at risk.

The service is of critical importance and needs to be available regardless of the current tragic circumstances.

The existence of a spare craft is testament to that.

My question was not in anyway insensitive, It's a life saving service and if it has a spare craft, that craft needs a crew.

So it is very reasonable to ask if a full highly trained crew is available to man the spare craft. They are so specialised in what they do, I'd imagine it might be difficult to pull a full crew out of thin air at very short notice?

Remember, a spare craft designed to replace a craft scheduled for maintenance would not normally need a crew, the crew from the craft due for service would be ready to man the spare craft. Unfortunately this is not the case in this situation.

There may well be individuals available to cover vacations or sick leave etc but a full crew is a big ask so my question is very relevant.

It is a relevant question and I'm sure a big company like CHC will be able to pull a crew from somewhere to cover shifts in the meantime even if an Irish crew is not available the would be able to pull in one of the UK crews (they provide some of the UK coastguard helicopters aswell) if required I'm sure it's all sorted out

Calina · 16-03-2017 02:53PM

Current Minister for Defence is Enda Kenny.

Irish Steve · 16-03-2017 02:58PM

The SAR service is 24/7/365, so there are a number of crews operating at each base, as there are very specific limits on just about every aspect of duty times and the like. I don't know the shift pattern that they operate, I do know it's one of the reasons why 116 was in the air every day, as from comments made to me by people closer to the operation, at each crew change, the first thing they do is a complete pre flight check so that if a call comes in, they can literally start and go with just a turn round check, rather than having to perform the (much longer) full pre flight check. In addition, they also carry out check flights and training flights,

Given employment working time directives and similar legislation, I would anticipate that each station has at least 4 full time crews, and there may then also be some "floating" crews, who can provide cover for illness, scheduled training and holidays,

jetfiremuck · 16-03-2017 03:00PM

116 has a range of 500 miles or so. why would they need to go towards scene then turn back for fuel as the trawler wasn't that far off shore.. They were after all providing cover only

jetfiremuck · 16-03-2017 03:02PM

Irish Steve wrote: »

The SAR service is 24/7/365, so there are a number of crews operating at each base, as there are very specific limits on just about every aspect of duty times and the like. I don't know the shift pattern that they operate, I do know it's one of the reasons why 116 was in the air every day, as from comments made to me by people closer to the operation, at each crew change, the first thing they do is a complete pre flight check so that if a call comes in, they can literally start and go with just a turn round check, rather than having to perform the (much longer) full pre flight check. In addition, they also carry out check flights and training flights,

Given employment working time directives and similar legislation, I would anticipate that each station has at least 4 full time crews, and there may then also be some "floating" crews, who can provide cover for illness, scheduled training and holidays,

It's also run as a business model and not state run as a body like the air corps

Calina · 16-03-2017 03:06PM

jetfiremuck wrote: »

116 has a range of 500 miles or so. why would they need to go towards scene then turn back for fuel as the trawler wasn't that far off shore.. They were after all providing cover only

Dublin to Blacksod is ca 170 miles. I am not familiar with how cover works but if they had to travel to where 118 was tasked, that was I think 300 miles return. Not sure what hovering and waiting would do but yeah, I think I would have been refuelling before heading out past Blacksod too. There wasn't much margin.

Calina · 16-03-2017 03:08PM

jetfiremuck wrote: »

Irish Steve wrote: »

The SAR service is 24/7/365, so there are a number of crews operating at each base, as there are very specific limits on just about every aspect of duty times and the like. I don't know the shift pattern that they operate, I do know it's one of the reasons why 116 was in the air every day, as from comments made to me by people closer to the operation, at each crew change, the first thing they do is a complete pre flight check so that if a call comes in, they can literally start and go with just a turn round check, rather than having to perform the (much longer) full pre flight check. In addition, they also carry out check flights and training flights,

Given employment working time directives and similar legislation, I would anticipate that each station has at least 4 full time crews, and there may then also be some "floating" crews, who can provide cover for illness, scheduled training and holidays,

It's also run as a business model and not state run as a body like the air corps

So are most airlines and they have to adhere to the rules and have some slack for those reasons.

Sterling Archer · 16-03-2017 03:19PM

sjb25 wrote: »

It is a relevant question and I'm sure a big company like CHC will be able to pull a crew from somewhere to cover shifts in the meantime even if an Irish crew is not available the would be able to pull in one of the UK crews (they provide some of the UK coastguard helicopters aswell) if required I'm sure it's all sorted out

If need I can see CHC having a crew they can pull in and I'd be sure they're would be no shortage of volunteers, they would likely split a existing crew eg. 2 current + 2 temporary so there wouldn't be a crew unfamiliar with the area, but like you said this is likely all worked out.

I'd Also be fairly sure the IAC are available to assist if needed

greenspurs · 16-03-2017 03:24PM

Irish Air corps plane sweeping the area (according to the data from MarineTraffic )

Rescue 116 Crash at Blackrock, Co Mayo(Mod note in post 1)

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