"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

14-03-2017 05:38PM

tigger123 wrote: »

The RCC had a stranglehold on this country for a long long time. They set the tone, and the morals by which communities judged themselves and in this instance each other.

It did. Having said that, did the Catholic Church run the protestant homes, too, then?
And the County homes, and the private homes?

Because, according to the survivors, every one of those places were not fit for purpose.

That's not excusing any mistreatment women received in Tuam, (though that link I posted earlier poses a few questions about that, though it would need validation from the women and children concerned, for an objective judgement to be made.)

Nor does it excuse the method of burial.

But it is stating the truth.
These women and their babies were mistreated by every last aspect of Institutional Ireland.

The good old days could safely be re-named the god-awful days, instead...

tigger123 wrote: »

Because the Church took such a negative, damning view of the women and their situation. No one family had the standing or the courage to take against the local priest and bishop.

Think for a second how different the lives of these women, and their children would have been if the Church had of supported, loved, celebrated and cherished them. Think about how they would have been treated and received by the local communities.

See above for the bolded section.

As to the rest - given the puritanical attitude society at large had toward these women, in various Countries, not just Catholic ones, there's no need to think about how they would have been received.

They would have been looked down on, at best, ostracised, at worst.

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 05:39PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

that is how it seems. And if you think the concern over this is faux concern then that says more about you than anything.

OK then. As you're so concerned for them, what have you done in the last two weeks about it?
In fact, what have you done to help any of the vulnerable in our society within the last two weeks?
Apart from waffle on the internet, that is!

ohnonotgmail · 14-03-2017 05:41PM

kbannon wrote: »

OK then. As you're so concerned for them, what have you done in the last two weeks about it?
In fact, what have you done to help any of the vulnerable in our society within the last two weeks?
Apart from waffle on the internet, that is!

pathetic.

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 05:45PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

pathetic.

Well then, show us how you're not just grandstanding!

Boggy Turf · 14-03-2017 05:52PM

kbannon wrote: »

Which shows how un-Christian the RCC is.
And given that they haven't changed their contempt towards women, children and the state are we to think that they are any different now?

Spot on, it has been so for a very long time. And it has not changed. It cannot.

Jelle1880 · 14-03-2017 06:05PM

kbannon wrote: »

Educate me then seeing as you believe you have all the answers!
While you're at it, let me know exactly how the nuns killed them all before fecking the bodies into the mass grave.

mass grave
noun
noun: mass grave; plural noun: mass graves
a pit dug in the ground to receive a large number of dead bodies.
"2,800 civilians were massacred and buried in mass graves"

Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

As to how they died: That's for the commission to determine. My guess would be that they simply didn't care for them, so if they got sick then that was that.
I have no idea why you're being so defensive about this.

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 06:13PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

[/LIST]
Are you being deliberately obtuse ?

As to how they died: That's for the commission to determine. My guess would be that they simply didn't care for them, so if they got sick then that was that.
I have no idea why you're being so defensive about this.

I'm just tired of people stretching the facts. The reality is that we don't have all the facts but that doesn't seem to be stopping people's imaginations.

Anyhow, even going by your definition, it's not a mass grave.

Boggy Turf · 14-03-2017 06:27PM

I just watched the Late Late inteview with Catherine Corless.

What a woman. I have huge admiration for her and her hard gotten research. Incredible courage and bravery.

How can we as a country repay this woman?

FA Hayek · 14-03-2017 07:07PM

volchitsa wrote: »

If a "legitimate government" is deliberately ignoring abuse of whole groups of women and children, the most vulnerable in its society, leading to huge death rates and terrible suffering, to what extent are the rest of society responsible if they don't try to overthrow the government?

Do you think that only the church has any responsibility here?

Or are you trying to have it both ways - you admit no right for ordinary people to take effective individual action, but they still get the blame for not stopping it all the same?

You can use quotes all you want but the Irish state from the Free State era of 1923 were the legitimate government. The only way to change this was by democratic means, or by the use of the gun, which as we have seen is never a fix to issues.

People are of course free to take action, but they are not free to use violent means like killing people because they disagree with them, which is what Fuaranach was advocating, mass executions for anyone right-wing.

As I asked in this thread, where did these people go before 1920? Unwed mothers didn't suddenly appear in 1920, they were there long before. The thing is we have very little stats on the mortality rates or other information because these people were often homeless, destitute, ended up on the streets or in workhouses with criminals, lunatics, drunks and everything in between.

nhunter100 · 14-03-2017 07:24PM

Deleted User wrote:

Well, someone has to! A lot of hysteria out there. Just trying to calm the situation a bit. Thankfully, we have come a long way over the last 100 years and babies born out of wedlock are as welcome as ones born within a marriage. Just teasing out the possibility that the burial chamber might have been blessed and the infants given a christian burial. A lot of blame is being laid at the Churches door, but these poor babies had more than mothers. Surely the extended families must take some share of the blame for these sad losses.

Yeah, but you're not playing Devils Advocate. You are not unbiased.

nhunter100 · 14-03-2017 07:32PM

Deleted User wrote:

Yep. It's always someone elses fault!

Isn't that what defenders of the church are saying throughout this thread?

14-03-2017 07:35PM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Yeah, but you're not playing Devils Advocate. You are not unbiased.

I am offering a contentious view in order to generate debate.

nhunter100 · 14-03-2017 07:35PM

Deleted User wrote:

I am offering a contentious view in order to generate debate.

You're not as evident in several of your posts.

tara73 · 14-03-2017 08:00PM

why do people still argue with someone like this kbbannon or whatever is his username. I wish people would just ignore this sort of posts, they are so troll-like, don't feed the troll!!

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 08:10PM

tara73 wrote: »

why do people still argue with someone like this kbbannon or whatever is his username. I wish people would just ignore this sort of posts, they are so troll-like, don't feed the troll!!

What exactly made you think I was a troll? Was it that although I loathe the RCC I can still believe in a fact based discussion or is it because I don't believe that the bodies were thrown anywhere (given witness claims on what they saw) or is it because I don't believe that the place they are found was in any way a septic tank but the name.
Am I a troll because I don't subscribe to the hysteria like we're on Facebook (u ok hun, x)? Am I a troll because I don't subscribe to the claims of murder given the lack of evidence to back this up?

As for others arguing with me, that's their choice but if people cannot debate with facts and less emotive terms then again that's them, not me.

14-03-2017 08:13PM

kbannon wrote: »

What exactly made you think I was a troll? Was it that although I loathe the RCC I can still believe in a fact based discussion or is it because I don't believe that the bodies were thrown anywhere (given witness claims on what they saw) or is it because I don't believe that the place they are found was in any way a septic tank but the name.
Am I a troll because I don't subscribe to the hysteria like we're on Facebook (u ok hun, x)? Am I a troll because I don't subscribe to the claims of murder given the lack of evidence to back this up?

As for others arguing with me, that's their choice but if people cannot debate with facts and less emotive terms then again that's them, not me.

Contrary opinions seem to be frowned upon. Hysteria seems to rule the waves. No one will ever know what went on. The poor mites should be left Rest In Peace.

14-03-2017 08:15PM

FA Hayek wrote: »

As I asked in this thread, where did these people go before 1920? Unwed mothers didn't suddenly appear in 1920, they were there long before. The thing is we have very little stats on the mortality rates or other information because these people were often homeless, destitute, ended up on the streets or in workhouses with criminals, lunatics, drunks and everything in between.

They were institutionalised long, long, before 1920.

https://www.academia.edu/23498855/Mother Reference guide and Timeline of Mother and Baby homes adoption and the treatment of single mothers and their children in Ireland from 1739 to 2015

TIMELINE

1739. The Foundling Hospital is set up in London for abandoned babies and children. Single mothers could give birth in the hospital but were not allowed to see their babies afterwards and discharged as soon as possible. Children stayed on in theHospital and were cared for and educated. http://www.foundlingmuseum.org.uk/collections/the-foundling-hospital- collection/thomas-coram-and-the-foundling-hospital/

1758. The first Magdalene Laundry is founded in Whitechapel, England http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

1765 or 1767.
(both dates are used and cited and may represent the time it took from inception to the opening of the Institution)
Ireland’s first Magdalene Laundry was set
up in a large, terraced Georgian house at 8 Lower Leeson Street, Dublin 2, by Lady Arabella Denny née Fitzmaurice (1707 – 1792), a Protestant widow living in Blackrock,
south county Dublin. It housed Protestant “fallen women” and single mothers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabella_Denny

19th Century.
Brief summary: over the next 100 years, civil society in the newly formed United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (1801) can be partly characterised by
a ’cold war’ between the now divided Christian churches of Europe. . . . pe Both the Protestants and Roman Catholics were energised by their respective Reformation and Counter-Reformation.

You would be forgiven for thinking that Mother and Baby homes, or indeed, the process of forcibly removing babies from their Mothers were a uniquely Irish invention, if you were to rely on the information in this thread, though.

B_Wayne · 14-03-2017 08:20PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Yep. It's always someone elses fault!

You're the individual who literally proposed keeping it all buried, literally. You seem intent on no further investigation. That's hardly the position of a devil's advocate.

Colser · 14-03-2017 08:46PM

kbannon wrote: »

What exactly made you think I was a troll? Was it that although I loathe the RCC I can still believe in a fact based discussion or is it because I don't believe that the bodies were thrown anywhere (given witness claims on what they saw) or is it because I don't believe that the place they are found was in any way a septic tank but the name.
Am I a troll because I don't subscribe to the hysteria like we're on Facebook (u ok hun, x)? Am I a troll because I don't subscribe to the claims of murder given the lack of evidence to back this up?

As for others arguing with me, that's their choice but if people cannot debate with facts and less emotive terms then again that's them, not me.

How can you debate as you've said a few times that you won't form an opinion until an investigation is completed?Or maybe you actually do have an opinion and care to share it with us?I've never heard of someone debating something that they supposedly have no opinion on..how's that even possible?

Colser · 14-03-2017 08:53PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Contrary opinions seem to be frowned upon. Hysteria seems to rule the waves. No one will ever know what went on. The poor mites should be left Rest In Peace.

The women who were in the homes know how they were treated and many are alive and sharing their horrific stories.Babies can't survive without food,medical attention ect.Do you honestly believe that the babies in question got the best care that was available?Can you understand how anyone who thinks that their baby ended up buried in a chamber designed for sewerage purposes might feel it added insult to injury?

Seth Brundle · 14-03-2017 09:02PM

Colser wrote: »

How can you debate as you've said a few times that you won't form an opinion until an investigation is completed?Or maybe you actually do have an opinion and care to share it with us?I've never heard of someone debating something that they supposedly have no opinion on..how's that even possible?

I've already given my opinion on this matter in a number of threads in boards. However, seeing as you want this to be about me...
The fact that children died so young is inexcusable. But we don't know why they died despite the hysterics.
The fact that society shunned unmarried mothers simply because an uncaring church told them to is inexcusable.
Do I think the children were murdered? No, there's no evidence to support this despite people claiming they were.
Do I think the bodies were dumped? No, there's no evidence to support this despite people claiming they were.
Do I think they were disposed of in a septic tank? It was unlikely to be one that contained any sh*te. I'll await confirmation otherwise from the commission.
Do I think the RCC have questions to answer? Yes but given how they couldn't give a crap what people think, why would this change their view?
Do I think plenty of people are expressing faux outrage over this and despite their waffle will do absolutely nothing and will idly sit on their arses whilst we hear about other abuses of vulnerable people today? Definitley! There's plenty of evidence to support this!

Zebra3 · 14-03-2017 09:16PM

Boggy Turf wrote: »

I just watched the Late Late inteview with Catherine Corless.

What a woman. I have huge admiration for her and her hard gotten research. Incredible courage and bravery.

How can we as a country repay this woman?

We could start by refunding her all those fees she paid for accessing certs/documents, etc.

Colser · 14-03-2017 09:16PM

Kbannon...why is in inexcusable if they died from natural causes?

A septic tank is OK as long as there's no ****e?

Faux outrage? From whom?There are people alive who experienced the homes,who don't know what happened to their children,whose lives were ruined because they became pregnant regardless of how it happened..I find it outrageous as do many others..nothing faux about it I can assure you.

14-03-2017 09:43PM

Colser wrote: »

The women who were in the homes know how they were treated and many are alive and sharing their horrific stories.Babies can't survive without food,medical attention ect.Do you honestly believe that the babies in question got the best care that was available?Can you understand how anyone who thinks that their baby ended up buried in a chamber designed for sewerage purposes might feel it added insult to injury?

100 years ago, infant mortality was 81.3/1,000. In 2014 it was 3.7/1,000. Illnesses like whooping cough and TB were rife even in well to do families.

Ireland now is a vastly different country to that of the early 1900's. Actually it is vastly different from the 1960s! I can remember in national school having a Rang naAmadan the class of fools for the slow learners! Imagine that happening now?

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/births/

Colser · 14-03-2017 09:45PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

100 years ago, infant mortality was 81.3/1,000. In 2014 it was 3.7/1,000. Illnesses like whooping cough and TB were rife even in well to do families.

Ireland now is a vastly different country to that of the early 1900's. Actually it is vastly different from the 1960s! I can remember in national school having a Rang naAmadan the class of fools for the slow learners! Imagine that happening now?

I'm well aware of all of that...do you believe that those babies were looked after in the best possible way that was available at that time?

14-03-2017 09:49PM

Colser wrote: »

I'm well aware of all of that...do you believe that those babies were looked after in the best possible way that was available at that time?

Do you think they were all murdered?

tigger123 · 14-03-2017 10:03PM

Would love to know what the infant mortality rate was within those homes, when compared to outside.

end of the road · 14-03-2017 10:06PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think they were all murdered?[
/QUOTE]
rather then deflecting, can you tell us if you believe that those babies were looked after in the best possible way that was available at that time?

Zebra3 · 14-03-2017 10:08PM

Deleted User wrote: »

100 years ago, infant mortality was 81.3/1,000. In 2014 it was 3.7/1,000. Illnesses like whooping cough and TB were rife even in well to do families.

Ireland now is a vastly different country to that of the early 1900's. Actually it is vastly different from the 1960s! I can remember in national school having a Rang naAmadan the class of fools for the slow learners! Imagine that happening now?

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-1916/1916irl/bmd/births/

How those babies were treated in death doesn't bode well for how they were treated in life.

gctest50 · 14-03-2017 10:14PM

tigger123 wrote: »

Would love to know what the infant mortality rate was within those homes, when compared to outside.

4 times higher ?

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/death-rates-in-mother-and-baby-homes-similar-to-concentration-camps-1.3007096

.

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

Comments