Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

tritium · 09-03-2017 08:13PM

danganabu wrote: »

The game has evolved so much in the last 10-15 years but some people simply can't or won' accept it, it's like when I'm at a hurling match and a keeper takes a short puck out and everyone to a man over the age of 50 starts groaning and bitching about the stupidness of it all, always gives me a good laugh, they just don't get it!!

If i could thank this more than once i would! Sports evolve, largely because teams find ways to use the broad ruleset to the best advantage of what they have. Fast kick outs are an example and ruling that teams should suddenly be allowed to re-set themselves against every play only goes against that evolution and supports blanket defence and a move to a play based gridiron style game.

Someone else will evolve another part of the rules soon enough and profit handsomely from it. Eventually other teans will try to copy them and be less successful as the game evolves past them. Pretty much true in every team sport.

seligehgit · 09-03-2017 08:40PM

Really good review of the contest with the lads on OTB.

http://cdn.radiocms.net/media/001/audio/000028/182286_media_player_audio_file.mp3

Audioslaven · 09-03-2017 10:42PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

It's not that simple.

No one suggested that Hennelly "had a vastly superior kickout".

The reasoning was that part of the Dublin game plan was to traget the Clarke kickout.

If you take Clarke's kickout away (alter the kickout strategy) then you take part of Dublin's game plan away.
Making them come up with an alternative.

That's what we are dealing with in 21st century football, minute levels of analysis of where you can find an advantage.

The only person that counted did think this. He removed him from the replay and made a complete arse of it.

Its a complete load of manure this criticism of the goalie when there are so many issues further out the field that have a bigger impact on the success or failure of the team, yet over the last few days everyone is on about Clarke.

If Dublin's plan was to target Clarke's kickouts, does this mean we just lie down and let them do this!!! Where are Clarke's team mates to make the runs for him to take the pressure off his kick outs... because this didn't happen everyone blames Clarke.

It was like a complete systems failure the last day across the complete team but there could be one valid reason for this as Mayo look tired.

Fr Tod Umptious · 09-03-2017 11:50PM

Audioslaven wrote: »

The only person that counted did think this. He removed him from the replay and made a complete arse of it.

Its a complete load of manure this criticism of the goalie when there are so many issues further out the field that have a bigger impact on the success or failure of the team, yet over the last few days everyone is on about Clarke.

If Dublin's plan was to target Clarke's kickouts, does this mean we just lie down and let them do this!!! Where are Clarke's team mates to make the runs for him to take the pressure off his kick outs... because this didn't happen everyone blames Clarke.

It was like a complete systems failure the last day across the complete team but there could be one valid reason for this as Mayo look tired.

Looked tired as in the proverbial "heavy weeks training" or looked tried as in worn down after years at this crack, Clarke, Higgins, Boyle, Vaughan, McLoughlin, Cillian, Andy, all guys on the road a long time.

The thing about it is that every league game gets analysed to death at this stage, and this game featured a goal from a kick out mistake so it's obvious that goalkeepers and kick-outs would be the talk of the week.

MayoAreMagic · 10-03-2017 07:51AM

charlie14 wrote: »

I did see how they were set up and to me that was because Jim Gavin had his homework done by going for a full press.
Had Mayo tried what Donegal did in 2014, Dublin would have reverted to having half-backs in that area in jig time.
They are not going to be caught like that again with that tactic.
Imo to beat Dublin nowadays needs accurate kicking from a keeper with players knowing where that kick is going and creating the space for who it is intended for. Try running the ball from your own end line you will find that these Dubs hit hard and with 15 mins to go and they bring on the cavalry up front your midfield and six backs will be out on their feet.

Im sure they would. But like ourselves reverting to cafferkey at fb in 2012, the damage was done. And rejigging means you have to change your gameplan.

You mention guys creating space but dublin werent tracking bodies for them to be able to create it, they were set up zonaly with big numbers squeezing up on one half of the field, so they blocked up all the space.

Short kickouts to the end line can be done, dublin do it themselves. It isnt about running it from there. You make them chase in to the end line then go back to the keeper and over to the other side if needed, with the idea being you make them chase in after the ball, the same way the ball is moved across the back 4 in soccer. The extra space also creates gaps in their press. If they commit more men forward to counter it, you kick over them into where they came from. This is what dublin are doing themselves.

charlie14 · 10-03-2017 11:50AM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Im sure they would. But like ourselves reverting to cafferkey at fb in 2012, the damage was done. And rejigging means you have to change your gameplan.

You mention guys creating space but dublin werent tracking bodies for them to be able to create it, they were set up zonaly with big numbers squeezing up on one half of the field, so they blocked up all the space.

Short kickouts to the end line can be done, dublin do it themselves. It isnt about running it from there. You make them chase in to the end line then go back to the keeper and over to the other side if needed, with the idea being you make them chase in after the ball, the same way the ball is moved across the back 4 in soccer. The extra space also creates gaps in their press. If they commit more men forward to counter it, you kick over them into where they came from. This is what dublin are doing themselves.

From what I recall of 2012 there were early warning signs of just what Donegal intended to do with a few balls that were played in to Murphy that didn`t work out. When it did, it was more or less one on one with the keeper.
Nowadays with kicking over the press with Dublin, they usually have someone in that space sweeping and even if he is gone, you are still 70 meters from their goal and you have one chance to make something off it.
After that Galvin will not need to rejig. They will do it themselves. 2014 was a severe lesson for them and you can see even yet when playing Donegal how cagey they are on getting caught with that again.
Playing the ball around near your end-line like that is a risky business imo.
The degree of accuracy has to be 100%. One slip or a man caught in possession and you really are looking at one of their forwards either in on goal or running on goal with options all around him.
A heart stopping tactic for supporters as well.

Shurimgreat · 10-03-2017 11:53AM

At the end of the day despite all the talk of strategy and systems, Gaelic football is a simple game.

Whoever has the ability to put the ball over the bar or under the bar more times than the opponent wins the game. This simple concept is something the amateur and professional strategists fail to grasp.

Donegal were successful in recent years partly because of their system but mostly because they had outstanding forwards like Murphy, McFadden and McBrearty. Mayo do not have this calibre of forward. Dublin have Brogan, Andrews, Flynn, McManamon to name a few. When the chips are down Dublin forwards can pull off the scores that count. Mayo forwards on the otherhand look like headless chickens.

Can anyone name a Mayo forward who would get into the Dublin team as a point scorer (not the workhorse forwards we seem to produce). Maybe O'Connor as a free-taker, but that's it. We don't need workhorses, we need forwards who can put the ball over the bar. Its simple really. But some people don't do simple and ignore the obvious.

MayoAreMagic · 10-03-2017 12:07PM

charlie14 wrote: »

From what I recall of 2012 there were early warning signs of just what Donegal intended to do with a few balls that were played in to Murphy that didn`t work out. When it did, it was more or less one on one with the keeper.
Nowadays with kicking over the press with Dublin, they usually have someone in that space sweeping and even if he is gone, you are still 70 meters from their goal and you have one chance to make something off it.
After that Galvin will not need to rejig. They will do it themselves. 2014 was a severe lesson for them and you can see even yet when playing Donegal how cagey they are on getting caught with that again.
Playing the ball around near your end-line like that is a risky business imo.
The degree of accuracy has to be 100%. One slip or a man caught in possession and you really are looking at one of their forwards either in on goal or running on goal with options all around him.
A heart stopping tactic for supporters as well.

I don't agree with this idea that Dublin cannot be caught out like any other team. They can, as can Gavin. You seem to be arguing that they are basically infallible. Why werent they able to rejig automatically against donegal in 2014? It is much the same personnel. We played into their system at the weekend, when that happens a team can look brilliant. But Dublin didn't look brilliant against tyrone, they didn't look brilliant against donegal either.

Yes playing it short is a risk, but then so is pushing 12 men into one half of the field. It the ball moves past them they are out of the game. You cant have it both ways. If you play the short kickout effectively, like Dublin do, the chances of turning the ball over are far lower than on a risky kickout with 12 men lying in wait, pre-empting that very act, which is the other option here.

NabyLadistheman · 10-03-2017 02:08PM

Anybody advocating pressing Cluxton's kick-outs all the time need to see Cluxton's kick to the Cusack Stand side from the Davin end. It was one of the few times Mayo were putting the squeeze on & he completely by-passed them. Kerry had the correct approach last year I reckon, specific targeting of Cluxton's kick-outs, after free-kicks etc. a time when the kicker can slow it down so he is not as sharp on the restart

charlie14 · 10-03-2017 04:00PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

I don't agree with this idea that Dublin cannot be caught out like any other team. They can, as can Gavin. You seem to be arguing that they are basically infallible. Why werent they able to rejig automatically against donegal in 2014? It is much the same personnel. We played into their system at the weekend, when that happens a team can look brilliant. But Dublin didn't look brilliant against tyrone, they didn't look brilliant against donegal either.

Yes playing it short is a risk, but then so is pushing 12 men into one half of the field. It the ball moves past them they are out of the game. You cant have it both ways. If you play the short kickout effectively, like Dublin do, the chances of turning the ball over are far lower than on a risky kickout with 12 men lying in wait, pre-empting that very act, which is the other option here.

I`m not saying they are infallible. That myth was put to bed against Donegal 2014, but what I am saying is they learned from that and no team has been able to use that tactic against them since with any success.
They weren`t able to rejig against Donegal because it had never been tried on them before Donegal didn`t show their hand until the second half and Dublin looked headless as they had no play to deal with it.
Now you can be sure they have.
The reason Dublin have problems with Donegal and Tyrone is the defensive system that both have developed over years. Some people think that is just packing men behind the ball, or just using a sweeper or two. It is way more sophisticated than that. While it may look as it`s primary aim is just stopping teams scoring it is done with the realisation that you still have to outscore the other team. It`s as much to do with that than it is with defending and what you do with the ball once you have won it.
If you watch Dublin against teams they are pressing up on that try playing it from the back, they go man for man very quickly putting pressure on the the player with the ball forcing him to play it lateral. One slip-up, a ball slightly under hit or even slightly behind the player it`s intended for two Dubs are on him straight away.
At that stage you are in deep s**t yards from your own goal.
Why do other teams not do that to Dublin ?
They have tried, but Dublin`s dummy runs and Cluxton`s ability to hit his man anywhere on the pitch within 50 yards often leaves players chasing shadows and the dummy runs have opened a path for whoever he hits.

Paulzx · 10-03-2017 05:39PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

At the end of the day despite all the talk of strategy and systems, Gaelic football is a simple game.

Whoever has the ability to put the ball over the bar or under the bar more times than the opponent wins the game. This simple concept is something the amateur and professional strategists fail to grasp.

Donegal were successful in recent years partly because of their system but mostly because they had outstanding forwards like Murphy, McFadden and McBrearty. Mayo do not have this calibre of forward. Dublin have Brogan, Andrews, Flynn, McManamon to name a few. When the chips are down Dublin forwards can pull off the scores that count. Mayo forwards on the otherhand look like headless chickens.

Can anyone name a Mayo forward who would get into the Dublin team as a point scorer (not the workhorse forwards we seem to produce). Maybe O'Connor as a free-taker, but that's it. We don't need workhorses, we need forwards who can put the ball over the bar. Its simple really. But some people don't do simple and ignore the obvious.

Thats exactly what it boils down to. When Tyrone and Donegal won All Irelands using a strong defensive strategy they both still had savage forwards. You can come up with any strategy you want but if you don't have at least 3 or 4 high class scoring forwards you'll be very lucky to win an All Ireland.

blanch152 · 11-03-2017 12:01AM

charlie14 wrote: »

Rule 2.7 (a).

"The ball shall travel 13 meters before being played by another player of the defending team"

There is nothing in the rules to prevent a goalkeeper taking a kick-out kicking the ball backwards.

Yeah, I know the rule, but I still haven't seen any goalkeeper take a kick-out and kick the ball backwards.

blanch152 · 11-03-2017 12:04AM

Donal55 wrote: »

The 'best goalie', who is the subject of so much controversy within boards and the media in general, in regard to his inability to kick a ball out from the square to other players on his team.
I'd say Dublin are happy to stick with the 'second
best' goalie.
ðŸ˜€

Actually Dublin are more than happy to stick with the greatest goalkeeper of all time even if he is only second best to Clarke.

charlie14 · 11-03-2017 12:23AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Yeah, I know the rule, but I still haven't seen any goalkeeper take a kick-out and kick the ball backwards.

Nothing to stop him if he so wishes.
A diagonal toward the flag on the end line/side line still leaves plenty of distance by the rule. I saw it being used in an inter-county game once. The opposition didn`t know the rule. The ref did.

charlie14 · 11-03-2017 12:32AM

blanch152 wrote: »

Actually Dublin are more than happy to stick with the greatest goalkeeper of all time even if he is only second best to Clarke.

All players have a weakness. be that physical or mental

Get inside Cluxton`s head, a lad I admire greatly, and you can cause meltdown all over that Dublin back-line.

dunnerc · 11-03-2017 08:50AM

charlie14 wrote: »

All players have a weakness. be that physical or mental

Get inside Cluxton`s head, a lad I admire greatly, and you can cause meltdown all over that Dublin back-line.

Well it doesn't happen to often if you look at Dublins record
33 games unbeaten, 4 sams in 6 years and 4 leagues in a row

Oldtree · 11-03-2017 10:02AM

dunnerc wrote: »

Well it doesn't happen to often if you look at Dublins record
33 games unbeaten, 4 sams in 6 years and 4 leagues in a row

It is an impressive record, no doubt, but all good things come to an end, it's just a question of when.

Dyr · 11-03-2017 10:47AM

Paul Durcan was a better all round keeper than Cluxton IMO

But if you gave any GAA manager a choice of any keeper now he'd take Cluxton.

dunnerc · 11-03-2017 11:18AM

Oldtree wrote: »

It is an impressive record, no doubt, but all good things come to an end, it's just a question of when.

That's for sure , nothing lasts forever, but the medals are in the back pockets
and the memories will last a lifetime .

ProudDUB · 11-03-2017 12:23PM

Oldtree wrote: »

It is an impressive record, no doubt, but all good things come to an end, it's just a question of when.

Just as it is with Mayo, with Mr Clarke. Question is, do Mayo have the fire power up front, to make up for a keeper who is just bedding in, or is just not as good, when Clake retires?

I am reasonably (I said reasonably, which doesn't technically count as arrogance :P ) that Dublin do and, will continue to. Do Mayo?

charlie14 · 11-03-2017 02:02PM

dunnerc wrote: »

Well it doesn't happen to often if you look at Dublins record
33 games unbeaten, 4 sams in 6 years and 4 leagues in a row

True, it doesn`t happen often, and I for one have great admiration for the lad for his skill on the pitch and how he handles himself away from the sport. Especially in a fishbowl like Dublin city.
I was only observing that the only weakness I can see in his game, and it`s a minor one at that, is that at times he can become rattled and his standards can drop.On the few occasions it has, it spreads through the Dublin team, especially their back-line fairly rapidly.
A few teams have targeted that imo with some degree of success and it`s something I can see others attempting.
Whenever this Dublin run comes to an end, I really do sincerely hope that it isn`t due to an error or errors by Cluxton.
That lad deserves to be remembered for a hell of a lot more than a mistake ending this run.
But then we all know how those things work in sport.

padd b1975 · 11-03-2017 07:52PM

Minor League result.

Mayo 2-13
Roscommon 0-10.

Good start to the campaign, hoping for a good year at this level.

seligehgit · 11-03-2017 08:06PM

Great win for Allergan in the All Ireland junior inter firms final.They beat Kerry Foods of Wicklow.Very enjoyable contest.

Oldtree · 11-03-2017 08:20PM

dunnerc wrote: »

That's for sure , nothing lasts forever, but the medals are in the back pockets
and the memories will last a lifetime .

And that's just what they will be, memories

Oldtree · 11-03-2017 08:26PM

ProudDUB wrote: »

Just as it is with Mayo, with Mr Clarke. Question is, do Mayo have the fire power up front, to make up for a keeper who is just bedding in, or is just not as good, when Clake retires?

I am reasonably (I said reasonably, which doesn't technically count as arrogance :P ) that Dublin do and, will continue to. Do Mayo?

Are you trying to be poetic?

How long will you hold onto a rising balloon before you let go?
Time soon come.

ProudDUB · 11-03-2017 08:55PM

Oldtree wrote: »

Are you trying to be poetic?

How long will you hold onto a rising balloon before you let go?
Time soon come.

I don't have to try to be all poeticical like. I'm a Dub. It just comes naturally. A bit like winning All Irelands.

km79 · 11-03-2017 09:02PM

ProudDUB wrote: »

I don't have to try to be all poeticical like. I'm a Dub. It just comes naturally. A bit like winning All Irelands.

Are you sure you are not from Kerry

ProudDUB · 11-03-2017 09:07PM

km79 wrote: »

Are you sure you are not from Kerry

Ah here, there's no need to be so insulting. :eek:

What did I ever do to you? :mad:

Paulzx · 11-03-2017 09:43PM

ProudDUB wrote: »

Ah here, there's no need to be so insulting. :eek:

What did I ever do to you? :mad:

I think that counts as personal abuse:pac:

Oldtree · 12-03-2017 01:21AM

ProudDUB wrote: »

I don't have to try to be all poeticical like. I'm a Dub. It just comes naturally. A bit like winning All Irelands.

Pride comes before a fall Prouddub

Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Comments