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Alberto Salazar in Doping Scandal

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  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    These are the same remarks you made after Armstrong was caught. The only evidence you have he is clean is he said so

    Armstrong and Mo? Yes, I can see the similarities....:rolleyes:


  • Posts: 2,799 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Ah, good, because it wasn't clear you could!


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    ultrapercy wrote: »
    like Nelson Muntz said "it's a victumless crime like punching someone in the dark". Its not that he has done nothing wrong he just hasn't been caught (fully) yet.

    Can say that for every runner that wins a race anywhere.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,340 ✭✭✭TFBubendorfer


    I get a weekly newsletter from a guy called Mario Fraioli, and he shared his thoughts on this subject, which I found quite interesting:
    While none of the accusations that came out over the weekend against coach Alberto Salazar are new, surprising or conclusive, they were, however, indicative that the investigation into Salazar’s questionable supplementing practices are far from over—and, if anything, might even be a step closer to showing that ethical (and even legal) lines may have been crossed on multiple occasions.

    The purported evidence—a 269-page draft of a USADA report leaked by the hacker group Fancy Bears—was not yet meant for public consumption, but USADA did not deny its existence, or accuracy. Salazar, along with Mo Farah and Galen Rupp, of course denied everything, but what else would you expect them to do at this point?

    None of the information in the leaked USADA report is official but it’s damning enough—along with what we already know—to make me believe that something messy is about to go down. Here’s why:

    — At a minimum, it’s clear that Salazar is willing to push right up against the boundaries of what’s legal—and ethical—in regard to supplementation for his athletes. This type of calculated behavior in competitive, high-stakes environments doesn’t typically stop short of said boundary; instead, offenders will usually try to see how far past it they can go before it becomes noticeable.

    — Along those lines, when Salazar emails the most disgraced drug cheat of all-time about the performance gains of an experimental IV he’s been testing, it paints the gray area solid black for me. “Call me asap! We have tested it and it’s amazing,” Salazar wrote to Armstrong in 2011. “You are the only athlete I’m going to tell the actual numbers to other than Galen Rupp. It’s too incredible. All completely legal and natural! You will finish the iron man in about 16 minutes less while taking this.”

    — If there’s nothing to hide, why not let USADA look at your medical records? I’m all for protecting an athlete’s privacy, but for the protection of sport itself, this important information should be easily accessible by international anti-doping organizations, especially during an investigation.

    — Along those lines, I think it’s Salazar’s relationship with Dr. Jeffrey Brown that’s going to be the undoing of this entire thing, and potentially have ramifications that extend beyond the Oregon Project. “USADA has found substantial and compelling evidence that Nike Oregon Project coach Alberto Salazar and Houston endocrinologist Dr Jeffrey Brown conspired to collude together in order to employ risky and untested alternative and unconventional (and sometimes potentially unlawful) uses of medical procedures and prescription medications (including both substances and methods prohibited and/or potentially prohibited under the rules of sport and those that were not) to attempt to increase the testosterone and energy levels and the recovery capacity of NOP athletes in order to boost athletics performance,” the report said. “USADA found that at least seven runners were prescribed thyroid medication after joining the project. The medical records of some of them, reviewed by USADA, indicate no need for the medication.” You could debate the use of L-Carnitine all you want—hell, you could throw it out of the argument all together—because if there is evidence that prescription drugs were being used unlawfully, and on a wider scale than just the NOP, the sport has a cycling-like collapse on its hands.

    — “Journalism is printing what someone else does not want printed; everything else is public relations.” I’ve always felt there’s quite a bit of truth to this statement. It’s worth keeping a close eye on how the various parties involved respond to the media as this situation continues to unfold and more news comes out that Salazar and company will surely not want printed. Salazar decried the initial ProPublica reports as “inexcusable, irresponsible journalism” and Farah recently posted that he is “unclear as to the Sunday Times’s motivations towards me.” Sound familiar?

    — Tangentially-related shadiness: Finally, and not mentioned in Sunday’s reports, but worth including in this conversation: Salazar and Farah’s relationship with coach Jama Aden, who was busted for supplying his athletes with EPO in Spain last summer, remains largely unresolved. I wrote about this in Issue 32 and again in Issue 43. Letsrun provided a solid rundown last June but it hasn’t been written about much since, to my knowledge. I’ll be interested to see if any chatter about this resurfaces anytime soon.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭youngrun


    More from Sunday Indo
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics/eamonn-sweeney-the-devil-is-in-the-lack-of-detail-35502793.html

    Very damaging press for Athletics yet again . Has USADA or Sweeney evidence of guilt and if so where is the case being taken? . If I were Farah I would be seriously peeved with the likes of this .

    I wonder will every future athlete who wins anything be tarred as suspicious /guilty until proven innocent. Has Coe or IAAF or AI any strategy to deal with this or whats the solution. It really ruins the sport .


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,849 ✭✭✭✭average_runner


    youngrun wrote: »
    More from Sunday Indo
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics/eamonn-sweeney-the-devil-is-in-the-lack-of-detail-35502793.html

    Very damaging press for Athletics yet again . Has USADA or Sweeney evidence of guilt and if so where is the case being taken? . If I were Farah I would be seriously peeved with the likes of this .

    I wonder will every future athlete who wins anything be tarred as suspicious /guilty until proven innocent. Has Coe or IAAF or AI any strategy to deal with this or whats the solution. It really ruins the sport .


    Maybe they should counter the argument, bring it to court.
    If your reputation is getting ruined, you fight it!
    Coe is too busy protecting himself at the moment!


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    youngrun wrote: »
    More from Sunday Indo
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/athletics/eamonn-sweeney-the-devil-is-in-the-lack-of-detail-35502793.html

    Very damaging press for Athletics yet again . Has USADA or Sweeney evidence of guilt and if so where is the case being taken? . If I were Farah I would be seriously peeved with the likes of this .

    I wonder will every future athlete who wins anything be tarred as suspicious /guilty until proven innocent. Has Coe or IAAF or AI any strategy to deal with this or whats the solution. It really ruins the sport .

    It's an absolute disgrace...


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    walshb wrote: »
    It's an absolute disgrace...

    Yeah I agree ,the sport really should get it's house in order .


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    Listened to the ross tucker interview there on newstalk, he says that they ask anonymously at the world championships whether you dope or not and 30-40% say they have, you would have to think at that stage most would still lie. Kinda depressing but it's very interesting to watch these journalist go after them. They mentioned with the fbi now being involved in Alberto Salazars case it could make a difference as they've more access than anyone had previously, really hope they nail him


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,658 ✭✭✭Halloween Jack


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    Listened to the ross tucker interview there on newstalk, he says that they ask anonymously at the world championships whether you dope or not and 30-40% say they have, you would have to think at that stage most would still lie. Kinda depressing but it's very interesting to watch these journalist go after them. They mentioned with the fbi now being involved in Alberto Salazars case it could make a difference as they've more access than anyone had previously, really hope they nail him

    Yeah 30-40% admit doping, 2% of samples come back positive, so anybody parroting the 'never failed a test' rubbish should be ignored.

    With the FBI getting involved and WADA wanting to retest samples, the wolves are circling around the farah camp...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    IvoryTower wrote: »
    Listened to the ross tucker interview there on newstalk, he says that they ask anonymously at the world championships whether you dope or not and 30-40% say they have, you would have to think at that stage most would still lie. Kinda depressing but it's very interesting to watch these journalist go after them. They mentioned with the fbi now being involved in Alberto Salazars case it could make a difference as they've more access than anyone had previously, really hope they nail him

    Sound bogus. Likely is bogus.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    walshb wrote: »
    Sound bogus. Likely is bogus.

    You like to swim against the tide. Many outlets have had stories recently about the FBI and USADA looking into it.

    Or are you implyng the survey is made up?


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower




  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    ThisRegard wrote: »
    You like to swim against the tide. Many outlets have had stories recently about the FBI and USADA looking into it.

    Or are you implyng the survey is made up?

    Absolutely made up, or embellished.....Nothing to do with swimming against the tide. Everything to do with not being a schmuch!


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,825 ✭✭✭IvoryTower


    that dastardly fake news again!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    He's been a fan of alternative facts before it was coined by the Trump Whitehouse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    45% is Pan Arab Games, 29% is World Championships. Pan Arab Games contain countries that do not seem to see doping as immoral.

    So 29% of those surveyed at the Daegu World Championships. We do not know how many of the 2000 were at the World Champs and how many at Pan Arab Games. As the latter is a multi sport event I'm guessing more came from that. In any case let's take the 29% figure as gospel.

    Russia had 76 athletes in Daegu, so safe to assume almost all of them were juiced. Then include countries like Morocco, Algeria, Spain, Turkey and the like, all of whom are probably up at the 80% mark. When you strip away these type of places, the number for the rest of the world is seriously reduced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    Just for comparison purposes compare this thread to the below thread to how athletics fans treat doping revelations to the way football fans do. Shocking revelations about no valid testing in La Liga all season and UEFA and FIFA refusing to step in.

    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056873288/71

    At least in our sport, we, the fans, do not tolerate drug cheating, and the federation for the most part tries to stamp it out. Football is the biggest fraudulent sport there is. No responses on this football thread. The fans don't care. The same people who then go slate athletics as a filthy sport. It is nauseating hearing the praise for Barcelona.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Just for comparison purposes compare this thread to the below thread to how athletics fans treat doping revelations to the way football fans do. Shocking revelations about no valid testing in La Liga all season and UEFA and FIFA refusing to step in.

    http://touch.boards.ie/thread/2056873288/71

    At least in our sport, we, the fans, do not tolerate drug cheating, and the federation for the most part tries to stamp it out. Football is the biggest fraudulent sport there is. No responses on this football thread. The fans don't care. The same people who then go slate athletics as a filthy sport. It is nauseating hearing the praise for Barcelona.

    No matter what, you'll never get beyond the fourth or fifth post on a football doping thread before someone interjects that PEDs are a waste of time because it's all about skill anyway. It's like a godwins law of football doping discussion threads, all rational discussion ends at that point. Same in tennis, golf, snooker, whatever. It's like Only cycling and athletics get it in the neck.

    BTW cheers for that other thing, couldn't reply cos it wouldn't let me!


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    No matter what, you'll never get beyond the fourth or fifth post on a football doping thread before someone interjects that PEDs are a waste of time because it's all about skill anyway. It's like a godwins law of football doping discussion threads, all rational discussion ends at that point. Same in tennis, golf, snooker, whatever. It's like Only cycling and athletics get it in the neck.

    BTW cheers for that other thing, couldn't reply cos it wouldn't let me!

    Most educated on the issue would say that for athletics the possible gains are a little clearer than in more skill based sports...The stupidity is trying to claim that the sports are equal as regards the potential benefits/desires/needs of PEDs.

    To claim that say snooker players will have the same need or desire to use PEDs as track athletes is just beyond stupid.

    Soccer/Tennis? Yes, much closer comparison to athletics. But still not the at the same desire/necessity level.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    walshb wrote: »
    Most educated on the issue would say that for athletics the possible gains are a little clearer than in more skill based sports...The stupidity is trying to claim that the sports are equal as regards the potential benefits/desires/needs of PEDs.

    To claim that say snooker players will have the same need or desire to use PEDs as track athletes is just beyond stupid.

    Soccer/Tennis? Yes, much closer comparison to athletics. But still not the at the same desire/necessity level.

    Any sport that involves running for 90 to 120 minutes around a large patch of grass is full of things like EPO. Same with a sport that involves stop start bursts for up to 5 hours in the sweltering Melbourne, Paris and NYC summer. Skill is nothing without fitness. Absolutely nothing.

    There's a reason Dr Fuentes said to one of his cycling clients "you guys take nothing in comparison to the footballers". He'd know better than anyone.

    Would love to see a proper investigation done into Spanish football. Can't see it happening sadly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Chivito550 wrote: »
    Any sport that involves running for 90 to 120 minutes around a large patch of grass is full of things like EPO. Same with a sport that involves stop start bursts for up to 5 hours in the sweltering Melbourne, Paris and NYC summer. Skill is nothing without fitness. Absolutely nothing.

    There's a reason Dr Fuentes said to one of his cycling clients "you guys take nothing in comparison to the footballers". He'd know better than anyone.

    Would love to see a proper investigation done into Spanish football. Can't see it happening sadly.

    Skill sometimes can get you by even when lacking real fitness.

    Let's not make out these soccer lads are unfit to begin with. They are world class athletes that are young and fit already. PEDs sure could help them as regards their stamina, but it is not near as desired/needed/tempting for soccer players to uses EPO compared to track runners or cyclists. To suggest it's equal is ludicrous.

    Soccer is a really tough sport on the lungs and heart, but not compared to guys running miles and 5ks and 10ks and marathons. It's just not comparable, hence it's logically reasonable to assume that EPO would be a little more desirable/tempting to the runner/cyclist.

    Is EPO an option/temptation to a soccer player, particularly a midfielder? Yes. Not saying otherwise.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Chivito550 wrote: »

    Would love to see a proper investigation done into Spanish football. Can't see it happening sadly.

    Even if it was you wouldn't be happy unless it unearthed a load of PED users. You already have your mind made up, and any result that doesn't equal yours would be met with scorn.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,695 ✭✭✭Chivito550


    walshb wrote: »
    Skill sometimes can get you by even when lacking real fitness.

    Let's not make out these soccer lads are unfit to begin with. They are world class athletes that are young and fit already. PEDs sure could help them as regards their stamina, but it is not near as desired/needed/tempting for soccer players to uses EPO compared to track runners or cyclists. To suggest it's equal is ludicrous.

    Soccer is a really tough sport on the lungs and heart, but not compared to guys running miles and 5ks and 10ks and marathons. It's just not comparable, hence it's logically reasosnable to assume that EPO would be a little more desirable/tempting to the runner/cyclist.

    There's less individual doping in football than athletics in my view, but far greater systematic doping. Entire teams being given stuff by a team doctor. Tony Cascarino saw it first hand at Marseilles. Throw in non existent testing, the financial incentives, and federations which do not care one bit about exposing the issue, and you've got yourself a very filthy sport right there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    walshb wrote: »
    Most educated on the issue would say that for athletics the possible gains are a little clearer than in more skill based sports...The stupidity is trying to claim that the sports are equal as regards the potential benefits/desires/needs of PEDs.

    To claim that say snooker players will have the same need or desire to use PEDs as track athletes is just beyond stupid.

    Soccer/Tennis? Yes, much closer comparison to athletics. But still not the at the same desire/necessity level.

    The gains are a little clearer -- yes, they are more easily measured in times, fractions of seconds...medals won etc
    That does not suggest that they are any less attractive to competitors, or in any less prevalence in terms of usage, despite what those "most educated on the issue" would say.

    We only know anecdotally how prevalent drugs are in football, because those in power have never wanted it uncovered. They still only pay cursory lip service to testing. Google Scottish football + drugs and you'll find they did something like one test in 18 months. Not even the semblance of a pretence there.

    I think it's naive to believe there's significantly less reason for footballers (in any position) to resort to doping (especially when there are careers, potentially huge money spinning deals on the line). That's just my (uneducated) viewpoint on it!


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Athletes aren't doping because their events are really tough, or very hard on their bodies or their lungs etc. They're doping to get an edge on the next guy, or at least to keep up with him. Whatever the status or level of their particular sport or event.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb



    I think it's naive to believe there's significantly less reason for footballers (in any position) to resort to doping (especially when there are careers, potentially huge money spinning deals on the line). That's just my (uneducated) viewpoint on it!

    C'mon, one needs to look at least at the position of the player. It can't be the same to suggest that a goalkeeper will have the same urge/desire/need/want to use EPO as the outfield player busting a gut on the pitch.

    May as well lump in darts players here as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Athletes aren't doping because their events are really tough, or very hard on their bodies or their lungs etc. They're doping to get an edge on the next guy, or at least to keep up with him. Whatever the status or level of their particular sport or event.

    Yes, to see actual measurable improvements....Like you said, other sports are a little less clear to see. And some other sports should not even be included in a PEDs debate....


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    walshb wrote: »
    C'mon, one needs to look at least at the position of the player. It can't be the same to suggest that a goalkeeper will have the same urge/desire/need/want to use EPO as the outfield player busting a gut on the pitch.

    May as well lump in darts players here as well.

    Perhaps a goalkeeper wouldn't. That seems logical enough. Though I'd never rule it out.

    Where do you get the idea that the likes of darts players wouldn't dope. You've heard of beta blockers, propranolol right? Drugs that kill adrenalin, lower blood pressure. Darts, snooker, F1, they can all find their poison in a manner of speaking. I've even read about doping scandals in chess for pity's sake!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 55,021 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Perhaps a goalkeeper wouldn't. That seems logical enough. Though I'd never rule it out.

    Where do you get the idea that the likes of darts players wouldn't dope. You've heard of beta blockers, propranolol right? Drugs that kill adrenalin, lower blood pressure. Darts, snooker, F1, they can all find their poison in a manner of speaking. I've even read about doping scandals in chess for pity's sake!

    I was meaning more like EPO. Sure, a few drugs to calm the nerves or steady the hands etc would be ideal for darts players....Banning anything in darts is just a waste of time. Silly. Leave them alone to throw their darts. It's not even a sport in my opinion.


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