Strike For Repeal?

Live65a846d0ee · 09-03-2017 12:30AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Semantics. At 8 weeks and one hour does the bunch of cells magically transform? Technically speaking human babies are born "early" in developmental terms when compared to other animals, including our nearest relatives. Because the human brain is so large we have evolved a gestation period that continues beyond the womb. So in late stage abortions, which are apparently on the table for some, where the foetus could survive independently, is an "argument", but the same people would baulk at "aborting" a foetus a day after a premature birth which could easily overlap with another foetus in the womb?

Let's call a spade a spade here, abortion is the destruction of a potential life and it has a sliding scale going on. On that scale the morning after pill is a large remove from surgically removing a healthy foetus at 30+ weeks. And you know that's cool if we majority think as a society that they may be equal under cultural laws and morality, but hiding the realities under semantics is a little naive.

Do you realize the world is overpopulated you ****ing muppet yourself? Go right back to the hole you crawled out of. Will not be happy until earth is destroyed and the population is 100 billion

Here we go · 09-03-2017 12:32AM

ROVER_1912 wrote: »

in fairness this should be a womans issue,

therefore woman should vote on it,

and woman should do the termination,

never going to happen in ireland

if your pot chicuce I can see your logic but if pro life you consider the unborn 50% who are male and 100% who's view no one asks

infogiver · 09-03-2017 12:33AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Semantics. At 8 weeks and one hour does the bunch of cells magically transform? Technically speaking human babies are born "early" in developmental terms when compared to other animals, including our nearest relatives. Because the human brain is so large we have evolved a gestation period that continues beyond the womb. So in late stage abortions, which are apparently on the table for some, where the foetus could survive independently, is an "argument", but the same people would baulk at "aborting" a foetus a day after a premature birth which could easily overlap with another foetus in the womb?

Let's call a spade a spade here, abortion is the destruction of a potential life and it has a sliding scale going on. On that scale the morning after pill is a large remove from surgically removing a healthy foetus at 30+ weeks. And you know that's cool if we majority think as a society that they may be equal under cultural laws and morality, but hiding the realities under semantics is a little naive.

Well, in the UK a baby of 24 weeks can be aborted and a baby of 24 weeks and 1 day cannot.
Has everyone on this thread seen a baby of 24 weeks?

infogiver · 09-03-2017 12:35AM

Live65a846d0ee wrote: »

Do you realize the world is overpopulated you ****ing muppet yourself? Go right back to the hole you crawled out of. Will not be happy until earth is destroyed and the population is 100 billion

Just back from the Strike march in town I see. How did that go for you?

jameorahiely · 09-03-2017 12:36AM

Live65a846d0ee wrote: »

Yes, under extreme circumstances which only account for maybe 0.01% so might as well say that it's banned

You could say it, but you'd be wrong. Maybe the brainwashed believe it

What percentge of abortions would you be aiming for? :rolleyes:

ROVER_1912 · 09-03-2017 12:37AM

Here we go wrote: »

if your pot chicuce I can see your logic but if pro life you consider the unborn 50% who are male and 100% who's view no one asks

i'm neither,

i won't be voting,

it's nothing to do with me

tigger123 · 09-03-2017 12:42AM

Some posters in here with suspiciously low post counts ... *adjusts monacle*

infogiver · 09-03-2017 12:42AM

meeeeh wrote: »

Late term abortion is not performed on healthy foetus/mother anywhere in Europe that I would know of. Are you suggesting people here are looking for the most liberal law on the planet?

Late term abortion is an option for those in extremely distressing situations. It's disingenuous to suggest it's a general service women can avail of.

What would be an example of "extremely distressing situations "?
pro choice people hate to be asked for cut off dates for abortions.
Try selling middle Ireland the notion that a 24 week baby is a clump of cells but a 24 week + 1 day baby is actually a baby.
I ask every single pro choice person for a cut off date.

One eyed Jack · 09-03-2017 12:45AM

ROVER_1912 wrote: »

in fairness this should be a womans issue,

therefore woman should vote on it,

and woman should do the termination,

never going to happen in ireland

The Irish Constitution and any amendments to it aren't just a woman's issue. That's what the electorate would be asked to vote on, regardless of whether they're a man or a woman, as all of Irish society would be affected, one way or the other, including future generations not even born yet.

mzungu · 09-03-2017 12:48AM

JupiterKid wrote: »

And yes, whether some posters here want to hear it or not, years of religious brainwashing in their formative years has made many, many Irish people vehemently so-called "pro-life".

Everybody has agency and can make their own decisions. I am not saying that there are not zealots out there. But if this "brainwashing" in their formative years had such an effect, how did the marriage referendum pass?

Wibbs · 09-03-2017 12:49AM

meeeeh wrote:

Are you suggesting people here are looking for the most liberal law on the planet?

Just going off the Abortion Rights Campaign mission statement previously quoted M

Do you realize the world is overpopulated you fúcking muppet yourself? Go right back to the hole you crawled out of.

FYP as I'd prefer to be called a non asterixed muppet. It's more accurate. But yeah, I do and I have repeatedly stated that I think people should be having fewer kids overall and that the so called "crash" in European birthrates is actually an advantage. Nice wind ups BTW. Love the "stick them in concentration camps" angle. Hackles up all over the place. Kudos.

JupiterKid wrote: »

And yes, whether some posters here want to hear it or not, years of religious brainwashing in their formative years has made many, many Irish people vehemently so-called "pro-life".

Oh I have no doubt that could well be in play with some, if not many. I dunno about younger folks who grew up with the information a google away. So just speaking for myself, I was around in the last gasps of cassocked "Old Ireland". I was at Pope John Paul George Ringo at the Phoenix park and was ten paces away from him at the time. And I went off the whole religious thing fairly early on and well before most of my peers(I can damn near pinpoint it, aged 12 on a trip to Lourdes, which was an Irish thing of that time). At a time when I hadn't even heard of abortion, much less considered the "morals", or the mechanics.

I certainly wasn't aware of what was actually involved. It was hardly the subject of mainstream media, even if you had the "pipe television". Showing my age.

It was only much later when I got more info on the nitty gritty of the procedure. And I'll be honest JK, my mind recoiled at the vision of tiny arms and legs and bodies being excised in later stage procedures. Call me squeamish if you will, but no religion required.

In personal practical terms, I have been involved in two terminations. Not as a boyfriend, but as a friend of women mates of mine. In both cases the sperm donor had buggered off and... well they were mates, so you help where you can. Both were early stage(well under ten weeks) and I went with one to the UK. I was witness to their stress and pain and yep relief when it was over(though understandably a muted relief) and I would do it all again. However, I would have had and still would have major issues beyond that kinda timeline. If those same mates had asked me to go along at 5 months along, TBH I would have supported them where I could, but I would have had a strong debate with them. As I say call me squeamish if you will.

ROVER_1912 wrote:

i'm neither,

i won't be voting,

it's nothing to do with me

Until the "clump of cells" is in a nappy in the delivery room, or the incubator for tiny people, then it is. A bit myopic, no?

mzungu · 09-03-2017 12:51AM

ROVER_1912 wrote: »

in fairness this should be a womans issue,

therefore woman should vote on it,

and woman should do the termination,

never going to happen in ireland

Men have been found to be more open to the idea of abortion than women. So, that one could backfire.

One eyed Jack · 09-03-2017 12:51AM

Wibbs wrote: »

We're in a agreement there at least.

Reinforcing my point really. He doesn't matter, it's all about the mother and her choice regardless. Yet after...

because of an autonomous decision by the woman?

or force a woman to keep the kid. Either way the man is out of the loop. Until his wallet is required. The sooner the reliable male pill is invented the better.

No, it's not the case that he doesn't matter, it's that he literally has no choice in the matter as he cannot force a woman to have an abortion. The reason it matters that a child is born is because the child has rights that are considered, and that's why the man isn't out of the loop even if he wants to be, because he has a duty of care towards his child.

ROVER_1912 · 09-03-2017 12:51AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

The Irish Constitution and any amendments to it aren't just a woman's issue. That's what the electorate would be asked to vote on, regardless of whether they're a man or a woman, as all of Irish society would be affected, one way or the other, including future generations not even born yet.

men aren't going to be pregnant or have to make the decision,

so leave it to women ,

i won't be voting either way

Wibbs · 09-03-2017 12:52AM

infogiver wrote: »

Just back from the Strike march in town I see. How did that go for you?

In fairness, guilty as charged, I can be a "***ing muppet", so credit where credit's due. Though I don't live in a hole. Yet. Though I always had a hankering for Mole's underground gaff in the Wind in the Willows, so long as I have access to Toad's garage.

stefanovich · 09-03-2017 12:54AM

infogiver wrote:

Well, in the UK a baby of 24 weeks can be aborted and a baby of 24 weeks and 1 day cannot. Has everyone on this thread seen a baby of 24 weeks?

24 weeks. Sick.

martingriff · 09-03-2017 12:54AM

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

No, changing laws is only a matter for the Dail. The 8th (and indeed the whole Constitution) acts as a potential blocker against what legislation is allowed through the Dail.
Changing the constitution would however be a separate referendum question.

Thanks for that I thought a referendum would be required to give abortions over what is allowed now. I knew for Repel the Eight was needed. So Repeling the Eight will not allow or disallow abortions thanks

09-03-2017 12:55AM

The problem I have with the 8th amendment is it gives the unborn equal rights as me.
I am a woman and I resent the state telling me that a 6 week old embryo is just as important as me, and that in some cases, that embryos life to right affects my right to medical treatment.

stefanovich · 09-03-2017 12:55AM

infogiver wrote:

Just back from the Strike march in town I see. How did that go for you?

Similar protest here in Limerick today. Load of bored art students protesting about having to use contraception.

The_Valeyard · 09-03-2017 12:56AM

Poster today "No Uterus, No Opinion"

F*ck off.

Until you magic up a baby without doing the no pants dance, men get a say.

ROVER_1912 · 09-03-2017 12:56AM

Wibbs wrote: »

In fairness, guilty as charged, I can be a "***ing muppet", so credit where credit's due. Though I don't live in a hole. Yet. Though I always had a hankering for Mole's underground gaff in the Wind in the Willows, so long as I have access to Toad's garage.

so you didn't go to the demo?

stefanovich · 09-03-2017 01:00AM

ROVER_1912 wrote:

men aren't going to be pregnant or have to make the decision,

If I got a woman pregnant and she aborted the child without my consent I'm not sure how I'd handle it. Spoiler: Consent would never be given.

Wibbs · 09-03-2017 01:00AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, it's not the case that he doesn't matter, it's that he literally has no choice in the matter

So the same thing. And why?

The reason it matters that a child is born is because the child has rights that are considered, and that's why the man isn't out of the loop even if he wants to be, because he has a duty of care towards his child.

But the mother doesn't? Woman decides to have abortion at 20 odd weeks, another woman decides that her/their premature "baby" at 20 odd weeks should live? Fathers seem to be outa the loop until their wallets are in play.

ROVER_1912 wrote: »

men aren't going to be pregnant or have to make the decision,

Yet they're in thrall to the decision of the woman for up to 18 years and beyond?

so leave it to women ,

i won't be voting either way

Hmmm, I wonder if we should extend this out further. Any laws or societal rules where votes are required and women are in the minority, or absent, yeah, let's encourage them not to vote. :rolleyes: Gender as politic ballsology IMH.

ROVER_1912 · 09-03-2017 01:00AM

bubblypop wrote: »

The problem I have with the 8th amendment is it gives the unborn equal rights as me.
I am a woman and I resent the state telling me that a 6 week old embryo is just as important as me, and that in some cases, that embryos life to right affects my right to medical treatment.

sorry i don't want to be putting words in your mouth or anything,

but are you saying you feels bad cos ireland is the only nation that gives rights to an unborn child?

secman · 09-03-2017 01:01AM

bubblypop wrote: »

The problem I have with the 8th amendment is it gives the unborn equal rights as me.
I am a woman and I resent the state telling me that a 6 week old embryo is just as important as me, and that in some cases, that embryos life to right affects my right to medical treatment.

Just as well that when you were a 6 week old embryo you got a chance to live so.

One eyed Jack · 09-03-2017 01:02AM

ROVER_1912 wrote: »

men aren't going to be pregnant or have to make the decision,

so leave it to women ,

i won't be voting either way

No, they're not going to be pregnant, but abortion is a social issue that has an impact on everyone in society, regardless of their gender. Gender specific abortions are another thing you may not hear about either from the pill poppers on the party bus, but as it happens in other cultures, it could just as easily happen here, and you'll never guess which gender is preferred? It ain't women.

We have no idea what we'd actually being asked to vote on yet, so I'd be more inclined to decide what way I'll vote once I see the wording of any proposal.

Wibbs · 09-03-2017 01:02AM

The_Valeyard wrote: »

Poster today "No Uterus, No Opinion"

F*ck off.

Until you magic up a baby without doing the no pants dance, men get a say.

You might think? Apparently not. Biology dontcha know and society be damned. When it suits.

ROVER_1912 wrote: »

so you didn't go to the demo?

Nah, I have a near allergic response to both Bro Science™ and Chick Think™ so tend to avoid contact with either as much as is possible.

Prime Irish Beef · 09-03-2017 01:05AM

ROVER_1912 wrote: »

but are you saying you feels bad cos ireland is the only nation that gives rights to an unborn child?

This guy popped into my head after reading that sentence......

ROVER_1912 · 09-03-2017 01:08AM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, they're not going to be pregnant, but abortion is a social issue that has an impact on everyone in society, regardless of their gender. Gender specific abortions are another thing you may not hear about either from the pill poppers on the party bus, but as it happens in other cultures, it could just as easily happen here, and you'll never guess which gender is preferred? It ain't women.

We have no idea what we'd actually being asked to vote on yet, so I'd be more inclined to decide what way I'll vote once I see the wording of any proposal.

fair enough,

as i said i don't know/care enough to vote but it's good to hear both sides

Arcade_Tryer · 09-03-2017 01:12AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Let's call a spade a spade here, abortion is the destruction of a potential life and it has a sliding scale going on. On that scale the morning after pill is a large remove from surgically removing a healthy foetus at 30+ weeks. And you know that's cool if we majority think as a society that they may be equal under cultural laws and morality, but hiding the realities under semantics is a little naive.

Hmm. I'm planning to masturbate soon. Should I stop and instead find a female to procreate with? After all, it will be the destruction of a potential life?

I don't like the idea of abortions. And would hope the abortion rate remains relatively low in Ireland once it becomes legal. The alternative however, which is the current situation, is far more distressing to me as someone who believes in equality and liberty. Abortion is fundamentally an argument of choice and control. Not weeks and stages of development.

Strike For Repeal?

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