Strike For Repeal?

Widdershins · 08-03-2017 10:50AM

kylith wrote: »

I agree that people don't have a right not to be offended but do you think that images of miscarried or stillborn fetuses* are OK to be shown on the street where children can see them? I was fcking traumatised as a child by the YD posters on College Green.

Would you be saying the same if the Repeal side were showing pictures of women who died of septicaemia after a back street abortion?

*Which is what YD's photos are of, but they pass them off as aborted because they're much later term and therefore more developed and upsetting to people.

I remember seeing some propaganda posters of allegedly aborted fetuses as a child. One of the women who was taking part in the protest tried to collar my mother and bend her ear, with me standing beside her. Needless to say I was hauled out of there before she got a chance. That was not a nice atmosphere and it has stuck with me.

It indicates a level of gormlessness and tastelessness that makes me really suspicious of their state of mind. It's one reason why, despite being in favour of early term abortion, I find this campaign repellant from all sides. Neither side cares what they do, they only care about winning, as another boards user has said.

Shenshen · 08-03-2017 11:00AM

cisk wrote: »

Excellent opinion piece in the IT, hits the nail on the head.

"Here is what Repealers won’t listen to, and what sticks in the craws of those of us hectored by them: The abortion issue is not clear-cut. Lots of us are somewhere in the middle. So talk to us, engage with us.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/why-the-repeal-the-eighth-march-will-backfire-1.3001535

This confuses me - she says she's pro-life, but she wants women to have the choice to have an abortion if they feel it's the right thing in their situation?
Isn't that the best definition of the vast majority of pro-chiocers?

Widdershins · 08-03-2017 11:03AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Sure they're only "clumps of cells" shortly after a woman has a "medical procedure".

but the photos are not representative of a clump of cells, they are pictures of fetuses from more advanced pregnancies, used to maximise peoples revulsion and discomfort.

Zulu · 08-03-2017 11:17AM

20Cent wrote: »

Can't get my head around two attitudes found about this.

"I want the 8th repealed but I'm against the strike or repeal campaign."
How the hell do you think there will be a referendum sitting at home thinking about it!

Then there's

"I want repeal but hate the feminists who take selfies in reprleal t shirts so would vote agaist it".
That means you are actually against repeal don't let dislike or otherwise of one side dictate how to vote decide yourself.

Well those are two confusing attitudes, but they are not representative of the vast majority of attitudes, and probably only represent a tiny tiny tiny minority of people.

mahamageehad · 08-03-2017 11:20AM

The graphic posters are simply inappropriate for public consumption. If people are on the fence and want to see graphic pictures of abortion or miscarried fetuses, there's loads available online. Rape is (rightfully) illegal, but the crowd that want the penalty for rape increased can't go around showing graphic video of what rape looks like in public areas and to children. Taking a ****e is natural but I don't want to see that on a billboard either. Christ, there has been plenty of backlash online against companies like Facebook that removed pictures of women breastfeeding for being too graphic!!!

Outlaw Pete · 08-03-2017 11:20AM

meeeeh wrote: »

However this would be beyond compassion, understanding or consideration of extreme pro life groups.

The majority of images they use are aborted fetuses of 16 weeks +.

I have to say, and this is not just directed at yourself (as I have heard other pro-choicers say similar over the years - even when not referring to images of miscarriages) that I find it quite bizarre how anyone could, with a straight face at least, show support for legislation which would make it legal to end the lives of developing fetuses at five and six months into pregnancies, and yet then out of the other side of their mouth call for compassion to be shown for dead fetuses on posters.

I'm pretty sure, that if a soon to be aborted fetus could talk, it would ask for compassion to be shown to it then, not wait until it ends up on some pro life poster when it's of fcuk all use to them.

kylith · 08-03-2017 11:24AM

thee glitz wrote: »

No - I pointed oat the government wasn't forcing people to pay for abortions abroad.

Earthhorse wrote: »

So what's your point?

I think the point is that the government isn't forcing you to pay for an abortion abroad, they're just as happy for you to stay here and not have an abortion for free.

Which isn't the point, of course.

Women have been aborting pregnancies for millenia; with poisons, with scalding water, with bottles of gin, with knitting needles. If Irish women couldn't travel to the UK we would be seeing women dying of these reasons.

The government forces you to make a choice: you have to travel to the UK or you have to have a baby that you don't want, maybe can't afford, maybe aren't capable of looking after properly. Why? Because some people think that something the size of the full-stop at the end of this sentence is a human being with more rights than a full-grown woman.

keano_afc wrote: »

They asked them to remove the banners because the reality of what abortion is upset them.

If someone find images of abortion graphic and upsetting, maybe they need to reevaluate what it is they support.

Or, you know, are children.

I'm against circumcision. It's ok for me to stick A1 size photos of mutilated penises up on the High Street, yeah?

And YET AGAIN those photos are not of the products of abortion. They are of miscarried or stillborn late-term fetuses. Abortions done at that point in pregnancy are very rare and for tragic reasons such as FFA. More than 90% of abortions are carried out while the fetus is too small to be seen.

RobertKK · 08-03-2017 11:29AM

So clumps of cells that can walk and talk are going on strike?

Richard Hillman · 08-03-2017 11:30AM

Shenshen wrote: »

This confuses me - she says she's pro-life, but she wants women to have the choice to have an abortion if they feel it's the right thing in their situation?
Isn't that the best definition of the vast majority of pro-chiocers?

I don't understand what is confusing. People can be pro-life from a personal stand point but believe people should be able to choose.

Outlaw Pete · 08-03-2017 11:37AM

CaoimheSquee wrote: »

Abortion IS clear cut. Either you trust women to make a decision that is the best for their future or you don't.

Oh, I absolutely trust women to make a decision on what is the best for their future.

It's the future of the human being developing in their womb that I don't trust them them to make the best decision for.

SafeSurfer · 08-03-2017 11:51AM

kylith wrote: »

thee glitz wrote: »

No - I pointed oat the government wasn't forcing people to pay for abortions abroad.

Earthhorse wrote: »

So what's your point?

I think the point is that the government isn't forcing you to pay for an abortion abroad, they're just as happy for you to stay here and not have an abortion for free.

Which isn't the point, of course.

Women have been aborting pregnancies for millenia; with poisons, with scalding water, with bottles of gin, with knitting needles. If Irish women couldn't travel to the UK we would be seeing women dying of these reasons.

The government forces you to make a choice: you have to travel to the UK or you have to have a baby that you don't want, maybe can't afford, maybe aren't capable of looking after properly. Why? Because some people think that something the size of the full-stop at the end of this sentence is a human being with more rights than a full-grown woman.

keano_afc wrote: »

They asked them to remove the banners because the reality of what abortion is upset them.

If someone find images of abortion graphic and upsetting, maybe they need to reevaluate what it is they support.

Or, you know, are children.

I'm against circumcision. It's ok for me to stick A1 size photos of mutilated penises up on the High Street, yeah?

And YET AGAIN those photos are not of the products of abortion. They are of miscarried or stillborn late-term fetuses. Abortions done at that point in pregnancy are very rare and for tragic reasons such as FFA. More than 90% of abortions are carried out while the fetus is too small to be seen.

What you say is simply incorrect. Abortion in the U.K. Is legal up to 24 weeks. At 24 weeks a foetus is 12 inches long. Not the size of a full stop. You say "more than 90% of abortions are carried out while the foetus is too small to be seen." That is totally untrue. Where did you get that statistic?

Shenshen · 08-03-2017 11:58AM

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I don't understand what is confusing. People can be pro-life from a personal stand point but believe people should be able to choose.

Of course they can - it's called being pro-choice.
And that's what's confusing me. Do people actually believe that being pro-choice means that you think everybody should have abortions at all times, under any circumstances???

Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you want people to have abortions. You want them to have be able to choose to have one if they feel they need to.
The vast majority of pro-choicers think that abortion should be a last resort, that every option should be explored and that ending the pregnancy should really only be considered in extreme circumstances. But if circumstances are extreme for the pregnant woman, she should have the choice to have an abortion.

Calling yourself pro-life insinuates that you hold the opinion that an abortion cannot and should not be a choice.

keano_afc · 08-03-2017 12:07PM

kylith wrote: »

I think the point is that the government isn't forcing you to pay for an abortion abroad, they're just as happy for you to stay here and not have an abortion for free.

Which isn't the point, of course.

Women have been aborting pregnancies for millenia; with poisons, with scalding water, with bottles of gin, with knitting needles. If Irish women couldn't travel to the UK we would be seeing women dying of these reasons.

The government forces you to make a choice: you have to travel to the UK or you have to have a baby that you don't want, maybe can't afford, maybe aren't capable of looking after properly. Why? Because some people think that something the size of the full-stop at the end of this sentence is a human being with more rights than a full-grown woman.

Or, you know, are children.

I'm against circumcision. It's ok for me to stick A1 size photos of mutilated penises up on the High Street, yeah?

And YET AGAIN those photos are not of the products of abortion. They are of miscarried or stillborn late-term fetuses. Abortions done at that point in pregnancy are very rare and for tragic reasons such as FFA. More than 90% of abortions are carried out while the fetus is too small to be seen.

I checked that out, and the photos used on their banners are genuine abortions, apparently. I understand we only have their word for it, so maybe you can contact them and discuss the veracity of their claims?

https://www.irishcbr.info/authenticity-of-cbr-photos

mahamageehad · 08-03-2017 12:07PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

What you say is simply incorrect. Abortion in the U.K. Is legal up to 24 weeks. At 24 weeks a foetus is 12 inches long. Not the size of a full stop. You say "more than 90% of abortions are carried out while the foetus is too small to be seen." That is totally untrue. Where did you get that statistic?

What are you talking about? Yes it's legal til 24 weeks, but a 24 week abortion is very rare. In the UK in 2015, 92% of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation and 80% were at under 10 weeks. Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/570040/Updated_Abortion_Statistics_2015.pdf

conorhal · 08-03-2017 12:08PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Of course they can - it's called being pro-choice.
And that's what's confusing me. Do people actually believe that being pro-choice means that you think everybody should have abortions at all times, under any circumstances???

Being pro-choice doesn't mean that you want people to have abortions. You want them to have be able to choose to have one if they feel they need to.
The vast majority of pro-choicers think that abortion should be a last resort, that every option should be explored and that ending the pregnancy should really only be considered in extreme circumstances. But if circumstances are extreme for the pregnant woman, she should have the choice to have an abortion.

Calling yourself pro-life insinuates that you hold the opinion that an abortion cannot and should not be a choice.

That's a disingenuous strawman, being pro-choice is as applicable to ice-cream flavours as it is to abortion, nobodys being forced to eat vanilla or chocolate either.
What you is pro abortion, you are in favour of access to abortion. The pro abortion side favouring it's legalization prefer to couch their arguement in terms that don't baldly state what it is they want, prefering nice cosy 'rightsy'meaningless terms like 'choice'. Who doesn't like choice?

08-03-2017 12:09PM

20Cent wrote: »

Can't get my head around two attitudes found about this.

"I want the 8th repealed but I'm against the strike or repeal campaign."
How the hell do you think there will be a referendum sitting at home thinking about it!

Is there not a citizens assembly or whatever on at the minute? That's how there'll be a referendum.

Then there's

"I want repeal but hate the feminists who take selfies in reprleal t shirts so would vote agaist it".
That means you are actually against repeal don't let dislike or otherwise of one side dictate how to vote decide yourself.

Again, how many have actually said that? Look at Brexit, look at America. Plenty of people wouldn't have voted Brexit or Trump but when they pointed out tactics from the Stay and Hillary camps that would alienate people they were spoken to exactly like this. I want repeal and for a change, so how the campaign is run is massively important. People on the fence won't react well to bull**** tactics as we've seen twice in the last year. The "left" still refuses to learn or take any criticism on board it seems.

SafeSurfer · 08-03-2017 12:21PM

mahamageehad wrote: »

SafeSurfer wrote: »

What you say is simply incorrect. Abortion in the U.K. Is legal up to 24 weeks. At 24 weeks a foetus is 12 inches long. Not the size of a full stop. You say "more than 90% of abortions are carried out while the foetus is too small to be seen." That is totally untrue. Where did you get that statistic?

What are you talking about? Yes it's legal til 24 weeks, but a 24 week abortion is very rare. In the UK in 2015, 92% of abortions were carried out at under 13 weeks gestation and 80% were at under 10 weeks. Source: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/570040/Updated_Abortion_Statistics_2015.pdf

I have read those stats too. I don't dispute them. I disputing the statement that "more than 90% of abortions are carried out when the foetus is too small to be seen". Clearly this is untrue given the statistics show 20% of abortions occurred at 10 weeks plus.

Lau2976 · 08-03-2017 12:30PM

TBH I've been worn down to do with this lately. I'm an avid repeal supporter and have been for many years now but I'm losing all faith in Ireland and it's people. And not just on the abortion front. On everything, I'm sickened by what past generations allowed to happen. I'm sickened by the brainwashing of the church. I'm sickened by the politicians people still support. I'm sickened by the attitudes of so many people on so many things. i'm sickened by the fact that we sell our culture abroad and see no issue with it.

Honestly Irish people don't deserve this beautiful country.

At this point who cares about the abortion fight here? What's the point. Strike, don't strike, it's all the same outcome. People will be ignored, women will die and anti-choicers will continue to feel some warped sense of control over something that they are clearly can't comprehend.

Hopefully future generations will look back and be disgusted by the way their anti-choice relatives handled themselves, they'll be disgusted by the exposing of children to imagery that isn't suitable for them, for the abuse that they have hurled at people, for the lack of care for children when their popped out and for their stupidity in thinking that they have the souls of every aborted fetus on their shoulders.

Outlaw Pete · 08-03-2017 12:30PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5E2qobpSOI

Dravokivich · 08-03-2017 12:33PM

Shenshen wrote: »

This confuses me - she says she's pro-life, but she wants women to have the choice to have an abortion if they feel it's the right thing in their situation?
Isn't that the best definition of the vast majority of pro-chiocers?

She's looking at it personally to her when identifying as "pro-life." By not restricting others, does not mean she is "pro-choice." These are just 2 nonsensical labels that have been placed upon each side.

mahamageehad · 08-03-2017 12:33PM

SafeSurfer wrote: »

I have read those stats too. I don't dispute them. I disputing the statement that "more than 90% of abortions are carried out when the foetus is too small to be seen". Clearly this is untrue given the statistics show 20% of abortions occurred at 10 weeks plus.

Sorry, I misunderstood your point. For the 80% carried out before 10 weeks, we're talking about a zygote of about an inch or so. Not exactly too small to see so I accept that point. The real problem with pregnancy is that an alarm doesn't go off when you're pregnant. Many women don't find out til 4, 5 or 6 weeks in. Then they need time to make a decision and, in the case of Irish women that choose a termination, they need time to book travel arrangements and appointments. No-one thinks that late term abortions are ok and to be encouraged (except for a few loonys), but the fact remains that the majority are carried out at the zygote, not fetus stage.

jameorahiely · 08-03-2017 12:36PM

Lau2976 wrote: »

TBH I've been worn down to do with this lately. I'm an avid repeal supporter and have been for many years now but I'm losing all faith in Ireland and it's people. And not just on the abortion front. On everything, I'm sickened by what past generations allowed to happen. I'm sickened by the brainwashing of the church. I'm sickened by the politicians people still support. I'm sickened by the attitudes of so many people on so many things. i'm sickened by the fact that we sell our culture abroad and see no issue with it.

Honestly Irish people don't deserve this beautiful country.

At this point who cares about the abortion fight here? What's the point. Strike, don't strike, it's all the same outcome. People will be ignored, women will die and anti-choicers will continue to feel some warped sense of control over something that they are clearly can't comprehend.

Hopefully future generations will look back and be disgusted by the way their anti-choice relatives handled themselves, they'll be disgusted by the exposing of children to imagery that isn't suitable for them, for the abuse that they have hurled at people, for the lack of care for children when their popped out and for their stupidity in thinking that they have the souls of every aborted fetus on their shoulders.

Women die after having abortions too. Like any medical procedure it carries risks. It is not am elixir for eternal life.

mahamageehad · 08-03-2017 12:36PM

Lau2976 wrote: »

TBH I've been worn down to do with this lately. I'm an avid repeal supporter and have been for many years now but I'm losing all faith in Ireland and it's people. And not just on the abortion front. On everything, I'm sickened by what past generations allowed to happen. I'm sickened by the brainwashing of the church. I'm sickened by the politicians people still support. I'm sickened by the attitudes of so many people on so many things. i'm sickened by the fact that we sell our culture abroad and see no issue with it.

Honestly Irish people don't deserve this beautiful country.

At this point who cares about the abortion fight here? What's the point. Strike, don't strike, it's all the same outcome. People will be ignored, women will die and anti-choicers will continue to feel some warped sense of control over something that they are clearly can't comprehend.

Hopefully future generations will look back and be disgusted by the way their anti-choice relatives handled themselves, they'll be disgusted by the exposing of children to imagery that isn't suitable for them, for the abuse that they have hurled at people, for the lack of care for children when their popped out and for their stupidity in thinking that they have the souls of every aborted fetus on their shoulders.

Chin up Lau. There's plenty of good things happening in our fine land, and an uncountable amount of good, generous, kind people. It's easy to get bogged down by what feels like constant scandals and political arguments, but look out for yourself first.

Dravokivich · 08-03-2017 12:39PM

Lau2976 wrote: »

TBH I've been worn down to do with this lately. I'm an avid repeal supporter and have been for many years now but I'm losing all faith in Ireland and it's people. And not just on the abortion front. On everything, I'm sickened by what past generations allowed to happen. I'm sickened by the brainwashing of the church. I'm sickened by the politicians people still support. I'm sickened by the attitudes of so many people on so many things. i'm sickened by the fact that we sell our culture abroad and see no issue with it.

Honestly Irish people don't deserve this beautiful country.

At this point who cares about the abortion fight here? What's the point. Strike, don't strike, it's all the same outcome. People will be ignored, women will die and anti-choicers will continue to feel some warped sense of control over something that they are clearly can't comprehend.

Hopefully future generations will look back and be disgusted by the way their anti-choice relatives handled themselves, they'll be disgusted by the exposing of children to imagery that isn't suitable for them, for the abuse that they have hurled at people, for the lack of care for children when their popped out and for their stupidity in thinking that they have the souls of every aborted fetus on their shoulders.

So, you find it difficult to be motivated now based on what's happened before, and hope someone is motivated in the future based on what is coming to light now?

Lau2976 · 08-03-2017 12:44PM

jameorahiely wrote: »

Women die after having abortions too. Like any medical procedure it carries risks. It is not am elixir for eternal life.

Apologies I wrongly assumed people would understand context :rolleyes:

Women who died because of lack of access to safe abortions.

Does that clear my point up?

Lau2976 · 08-03-2017 12:49PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

So, you find it difficult to be motivated now based on what's happened before, and hope someone is motivated in the future based on what is coming to light now?

I suppose so, but also because of what is happening now. Ireland is committing a human rights violation.

Half the world is laughing at the stupid backwards Irish and the other half is just as messed up as we are.

But hey who cares once it's women being forced to do something against their will because of somebody else' religion.

ETA: Also that point was more about people not being disgusted by things in the past that now disgust us, such as mother and baby homes. I hope that in the future that we look back on anti-choicers with similar disgust.

keano_afc · 08-03-2017 12:52PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5E2qobpSOI

I shared that on twitter under the Citizens Assembly hashtag. The reason it was dismissed by Repealers that replied to me? Why, he's a man (and a foreign man!) of course and therefore has absolutely nothing to add. By that I presume they mean he's a man not in favour of abortion, as whenever the likes of James Corden or Liam Neeson show support for the Repeal cause they get the back slapped off them.

CaoimheSquee · 08-03-2017 12:56PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Oh, I absolutely trust women to make a decision on what is the best for their future.

It's the future of the human being developing in their womb that I don't trust them them to make the best decision for.

So therefore you don't trust women. You believe it is possible they will just act selfishly no matter the situation. That is very sad indeed.

CaoimheSquee · 08-03-2017 12:57PM

mahamageehad wrote: »

Sorry, I misunderstood your point. For the 80% carried out before 10 weeks, we're talking about a zygote of about an inch or so. Not exactly too small to see so I accept that point. The real problem with pregnancy is that an alarm doesn't go off when you're pregnant. Many women don't find out til 4, 5 or 6 weeks in. Then they need time to make a decision and, in the case of Irish women that choose a termination, they need time to book travel arrangements and appointments. No-one thinks that late term abortions are ok and to be encouraged (except for a few loonys), but the fact remains that the majority are carried out at the zygote, not fetus stage.

Waiting times can be up to 2-3 weeks.

One eyed Jack · 08-03-2017 12:59PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

She's looking at it personally to her when identifying as "pro-life." By not restricting others, does not mean she is "pro-choice." These are just 2 nonsensical labels that have been placed upon each side.

This is exactly why IMO many people simply cannot relate to the mud-slinging from either tunnel-visioned perspective, because most people understand that the issue isn't simply one of "whichever side of the fence you're on, you're either with us, or againt us". There are people and groups in society using the issue of abortion to wedge in a whole load of their own political nonsense, with no regard whatsoever for the reality of how peoples lives are actually affected by abortion.

I'm not a middle-ground, undecided or "silent majority" or any of the other nonsense. I don't think the more vocal campaigners in either camp have any interest in what anyone but themselves has to say on the matter. I think what it is is simply that most people just don't have the time, the energy, or the will, to go anywhere near the issue, and what's more likely to happen is that a large chunk of the electorate simply won't bother turning out at all.

The reality is that only a very small number of people actually care about legislating abortion in this country, and they'll fall into the same trap as the marriage equality referendum crowd did by assuming that the only people who could be opposed to them are religious. They completely ignore the fact that in the States, figures suggest that the majority of women who have abortions there identify as Christian, and the main reason given is socioeconomic necessity.

Even attempts to turn this into a feminists vs "everyone else" issue is doomed to failure as it was originally the feminist position that they were against abortion because legislating for it would be letting Government "off the hook" with regard to it's responsibility for women's welfare.

Simplistic, polarising platitudes aren't going to convince anyone of the merits of any side of the argument.

Strike For Repeal?

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