Louise O Neill on rape culture.

07-03-2017 01:13PM

Surreptitious wrote: »

She needs to get laid. Simply.

Who'd want to get involved with that headcase

Glenster · 07-03-2017 01:28PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ok, seriously, what the actual f*ck is up with this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/michael-harding-learning-late-in-life-to-listen-to-women-1.2992196

Dear men,

Be quiet and listen to women rabbiting on forever.

Regards,

Irish Times

The_Kew_Tour · 07-03-2017 01:35PM

Glenster wrote: »

That Mark O'Toole lad is such a b*tch.

He really is a Toole

RabbleRouser2k · 07-03-2017 01:38PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Typical ivory tower bourgeoisie navel gazing really. It was ever thus.

I love how she claims this elitist bourgeosie attitude-and then lives at home with her folks, despite 'living well beyond her needs' ie no rent to mum and dad. And no, I am not shaming her for living at home-I'm shaming her for acting all independent strong woman-still relying on mummy and daddy to help her out.

I would honestly not even dare pick her as a 'godmother'...and the drama over her claiming she felt 'relieved' when her friend had a kid...that nothing bad had happened to her. Because no bodily autonomy.

Okay, lets just put this in context, shall we? Bodily autonomy does not mean that a woman will not suffer some form of problems during childbirth.

According to statistics, in the USA (where bodily autonomy is available, tho how well one can argue) maternal deaths are about 19 per 100 000. In Ireland, it's 9 per 100 000. So LoN's ignoring facts again. Problems arise in every animal (and us humans are animals, lets be honest here) and unfortunately, the baby may die during delivery, the mother may die due to complications such as pre-eclampsia, or others. No matter what folks say about natural childbirth not having problems-this is untrue, it's unfortunate, but it happens.

(Imagine her horror of being a godchild to a boy--she'll make him hate himself as a potential rapist.)

mzungu · 07-03-2017 01:48PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ok, seriously, what the actual f*ck is up with this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/michael-harding-learning-late-in-life-to-listen-to-women-1.2992196

The IT's gynocentric propaganda has now jumped the shark entirely. In fact, if you think about it, this article is downright creepy in that it promotes eavesdropping on people's private conversations, but I guess that's ok if you learn a grand and humbling lesson about how much of a male gobsh!te you are, that's perfectly fine?

What. The. F*ck.

Awaiting an article from a woman who learns the error of her ways in how she has unfairly treated men in her life, aaaaaaaaaaany day now...

TLDR? Man has epiphany overhearing strangers talking on their phones so he decides to make his wife tea and listen a bit more.

red ears · 07-03-2017 01:51PM

Is that irish times guy joking, listening to women's conversations on the phone? I would advise quite the opposite. Tune out completely if you ant to live a long life

Ralf and Florian · 07-03-2017 02:00PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Ok, seriously, what the actual f*ck is up with this.

http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/people/michael-harding-learning-late-in-life-to-listen-to-women-1.2992196

The IT's gynocentric propaganda has now jumped the shark entirely. In fact, if you think about it, this article is downright creepy in that it promotes eavesdropping on people's private conversations, but I guess that's ok if you learn a grand and humbling lesson about how much of a male gobsh!te you are, that's perfectly fine?

What. The. F*ck.

Awaiting an article from a woman who learns the error of her ways in how she has unfairly treated men in her life, aaaaaaaaaaany day now...

That whole article reads like a bad overlong joke.

mzungu · 07-03-2017 02:30PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I love how she claims this elitist bourgeosie attitude-and then lives at home with her folks, despite 'living well beyond her needs' ie no rent to mum and dad. And no, I am not shaming her for living at home-I'm shaming her for acting all independent strong woman-still relying on mummy and daddy to help her out.

I would not agree there. People live at home for many different reasons, and they can still be independent regardless. Suffice to say that somebody's living arrangements (be it a well known person or somebody unknown) would not be anybody else's concern, and those living arrangements would have nothing to do with how independent they were.

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

I would honestly not even dare pick her as a 'godmother'...and the drama over her claiming she felt 'relieved' when her friend had a kid...that nothing bad had happened to her. Because no bodily autonomy.

Okay, lets just put this in context, shall we? Bodily autonomy does not mean that a woman will not suffer some form of problems during childbirth.

According to statistics, in the USA (where bodily autonomy is available, tho how well one can argue) maternal deaths are about 19 per 100 000. In Ireland, it's 9 per 100 000. So LoN's ignoring facts again. Problems arise in every animal (and us humans are animals, lets be honest here) and unfortunately, the baby may die during delivery, the mother may die due to complications such as pre-eclampsia, or others. No matter what folks say about natural childbirth not having problems-this is untrue, it's unfortunate, but it happens.

(Imagine her horror of being a godchild to a boy--she'll make him hate himself as a potential rapist.)

As regards the whole Godmother thing, that would be completely her business, and concerns nobody else.

You raise an interesting point about maternal deaths in the USA. Came across this article on Time detailing the reasons why it is so high:

Record keeping problems: National data on maternal mortality is inconsistent, and some health authorities argue that the uptick in maternal deaths is at least partially due to improved detection of pregnancy-related deaths . However, MacDorman says the 27% increase observed in her study is a true rise in maternal deaths, rather than a reporting issue.

More American women are obese: America’s growing obesity problem is a factor . There’s also a growing number of pregnant women in the U.S. with chronic health problems like high blood pressure, heart disease, and diabetes—all of which put women at a greater risk for complications during pregnancy. According to the CDC, heart-related problems make up a substantial portion of pregnancy-related deaths.

Access is inconsistent: Between 2000 to 2015, Texas saw a spike in maternal mortality while the state also underwent changes to reproductive health services, including the closure of several clinics offering abortions and other services. In 2011, the state’s family planning budget was cut by two-thirds. Experts say the lack of access is probably not solely responsible for the state’s dramatic spike in deaths, but as The Texas Tribune reports, it may have exacerbated the issue. “I’ve done my best to try to investigate this as a data error and I can’t find any changes to account for it,” says MacDorman. “It’s very concerning what’s happening in Texas.”

Racial disparities persist: Black women in the United States are up to three times more likely to die in pregnancy and childbirth compared to white women. While they are not significantly more likely to develop conditions like hemorrhage and preeclampsia—which threaten a women's health during childbirth—they are more likely to die from them.

Rise in cesarean births: The rates of c-section deliveries among American women rose 53% from 1996 to 2007, now accounting for 32% of births. "Cesarean has its place, and it has saved the lives of mothers and babies," says Dr. Michael Lu, an a ssociate administrator with the Maternal and Child Health Bureau at the Health Resources and Services Administration . "But cesarean has its complications and these can increase the risk of maternal death." C-sections require intensive surgery, and are associated with higher health and safety risks for mothers and infants.

Women are having children later: Lu says older women are at a greater risk for maternal mortality, with a couple caveats. "It’s not clear whether it’s age, or that older women have more chronic conditions when they enter pregnancy," he says. "The demographic of childbearing is changing. Women are getting older and they are entering pregnancy with more conditions like obesity, diabetes, and heart disease." To combat the problem, Lu says his department is focusing on improving the health of women before they get pregnant, and improving the quality and safety of maternal health care nationwide.

Click Me: Why U.S. Women Still Die During Childbirth

This is probably even more off topic, but the US has a higher maternal mortality rate than Iran, Libya and Turkey.

RabbleRouser2k · 07-03-2017 03:53PM

mzungu wrote: »

I would not agree there. People live at home for many different reasons, and they can still be independent regardless. Suffice to say that somebody's living arrangements (be it a well known person or somebody unknown) would not be anybody else's concern, and those living arrangements would have nothing to do with how independent they were.

I guess we'll agree to disagree there. Sadly, I don't think one can live at home and be independent.

As regards the whole Godmother thing, that would be completely her business, and concerns nobody else.

Ok. Agree there..

You raise an interesting point about maternal deaths in the USA. Came across this article on Time detailing the reasons why it is so high:

This is probably even more off topic, but the US has a higher maternal mortality rate than Iran, Libya and Turkey.

[/quote]

It's happening here in Ireland too, moms giving birth older I mean. Some do so because they've tried for years, and it finally happens-some delay it not knowing that problems may arise. I've known women to say stuff like 'oh, I won't have kids until I'm 36-I wouldn't be ready until then'-that said, they don't have a man in their lives-and they don't realise that their fertility will be in trouble round then. (That said, I know one couple who had given up on having kids, then the wife, in her early 40's, had a healthy baby).
I wonder if they realise the dangers too-Maura Derrane, for example, has spoken of the trouble she had during the delivery-and she was in her 40s. Apparently it was touch and go.
Folks often resort to IVF-but the amount of people disappointed when nothing happens outweighs those who are left happy.

Even freezing the embryos means that 'yes, the embryo is young-but no, the woman is not', it will still have potential problems.

py2006 · 07-03-2017 08:41PM

Not sure where to put this but I'm sure LON would love it...

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/australasia/feminism-at-its-worst-female-pedestrian-crossing-lights-stir-debate-35509841.html

"Melbourne has installed "female" traffic signals as part of a gender equality campaign to combat "unconscious bias".

Ten pedestrian figures dressed in skirts were being installed on traffic lights in the Australian city on Tuesday, a day before International Women’s Day."

Didn't realise all women wear is dresses...

07-03-2017 09:50PM

py2006 wrote: »

Not sure where to put this but I'm sure LON would love it...

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/australasia/feminism-at-its-worst-female-pedestrian-crossing-lights-stir-debate-35509841.html

"Melbourne has installed "female" traffic signals as part of a gender equality campaign to combat "unconscious bias".

Ten pedestrian figures dressed in skirts were being installed on traffic lights in the Australian city on Tuesday, a day before International Women’s Day."

Didn't realise all women wear is dresses...

Some men wear dresses too ðŸ˜‰ Did they assume their gender lol

Glenster · 07-03-2017 11:00PM

mzungu wrote: »

I would not agree there. People live at home for many different reasons, and they can still be independent

If you are supported by someone else you are not independent you are dependent.

retro:electro · 07-03-2017 11:25PM

This has probably already been covered here, but she tweeted this yesterday and it really annoyed me; "I'm tired of feeling scared for my pregnant friends, knowing that saving their lives would be a secondary concern if something went wrong".
Now I myself am pro-choice, but this scaremongering serves nobody and just shows how ill informed she actually is. She should familiarise herself with the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, 2013.
She needs to quit with the hysterics. Her militance is off putting and risks harming the campaign.

Sweetemotion · 07-03-2017 11:37PM

py2006 wrote: »

Not sure where to put this but I'm sure LON would love it...

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/australasia/feminism-at-its-worst-female-pedestrian-crossing-lights-stir-debate-35509841.html

"Melbourne has installed "female" traffic signals as part of a gender equality campaign to combat "unconscious bias".

Ten pedestrian figures dressed in skirts were being installed on traffic lights in the Australian city on Tuesday, a day before International Women’s Day."

Didn't realise all women wear is dresses...

If pedestrian crossing lights had always showed a figure in a dress. They would be campaigning for the neutral gender figure that is already there.

JRant · 07-03-2017 11:39PM

anna080 wrote: »

This has probably already been covered here, but she tweeted this yesterday and it really annoyed me; "I'm tired of feeling scared for my pregnant friends, knowing that saving their lives would be a secondary concern if something went wrong".
Now I myself am pro-choice, but this scaremongering serves nobody and just shows how ill informed she actually is. She should familiarise herself with the Protection of Life during pregnancy act, 2013.
She needs to quit with the hysterics. Her militance is off putting and risks harming the campaign.

Well said Anna. It also shows that she hasn't the first clue about the amazing work the healthcare professionals do in maternity hospitals up and down the county. I know from first hand experience that what she has written there is complete and utter tripe.

retro:electro · 07-03-2017 11:50PM

JRant wrote: »

Well said Anna. It also shows that she hasn't the first clue about the amazing work the healthcare professionals do in maternity hospitals up and down the county. I know from first hand experience that what she has written there is complete and utter tripe.

It just goes to show she has no clue what she's talking about. She's shouting for the sake of shouting. Im 100% pro choice, but I'm starting to dispise the Repeal campaign due to the absolute militance of people like her.

The_Kew_Tour · 07-03-2017 11:58PM

She said this on her Twitter 2 days ago

Wtf does this even mean.

What does her father think?

The Catholic Church are the white, straight men of the religious world - claim all the power and take none of the responsibility.

08-03-2017 12:04AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

She said this on her Twitter 2 days ago

Wtf does this even mean.

What does her father think?

Id love to know what he and any male relatives or friends she has think all about her stuff, wonder what caused her or Mulllalley/RMC and others go down the militant way

her tweets about her parents are fairly embarrassing, what a teenager would write

Smegmaniac17 · 08-03-2017 12:08AM

anna080 wrote: »

It just goes to show she has no clue what she's talking about. She's shouting for the sake of shouting. Im 100% pro choice, but I'm starting to dispise the Repeal campaign due to the absolute militance of people like her.

That's exactly it! They actually don't realise it but it is people like her that are hurting the movement! They're only interested in debating against their own convenient strawman argument of the Pro Life side : 'you just want to oppress women and not allow women have control over their own bodies'!!

I reckon that attitude is prevalent in only a small fraction of the Pro Life side myself. The PRO LIFE's whole argument is that the embryo should be considered a human life so that and that alone is what the Pro Choice side should be focused on debunking if they want to be able to swing the 'dont no's' if ever the referendum comes around. If people like Louise O' Neill are the cheerleaders of the Pro Choice, there is a very good chance they won't be able to swing enough of the 'don't knows' to win the referendum due to their persistent avoidance of tackling the core and crucial argument of the Pro Lifers with any sort of philosophical rigour and their smug moralizing and shaming of anyone who doesn't agree with them!

The_Kew_Tour · 08-03-2017 12:08AM

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

Id love to know what he and any male relatives or friends she has, wonder what caused her or Mulllalley/RMC and others go down the militant way

thing is she has the support of males and you know what they are worse.

JRant · 08-03-2017 12:23AM

anna080 wrote: »

It just goes to show she has no clue what she's talking about. She's shouting for the sake of shouting. Im 100% pro choice, but I'm starting to dispise the Repeal campaign due to the absolute militance of people like her.

Not only has she no clue but she is being extremely disingenuous about the people actually working there, which are ironically mostly women.

I tend to steer well clear of anything to do with the Repeal campaign as I can't abide the militant people on both sides of the argument trying to out outrage the other.

mzungu · 08-03-2017 12:35AM

Smegmaniac17 wrote: »

That's exactly it! They actually don't realise it but it is people like her that are hurting the movement! They're only interested in debating against their own convenient strawman argument of the Pro Life side : 'you just want to oppress women and not allow women have control over their own bodies'!!

I reckon that attitude is prevalent in only a small fraction of the Pro Life side myself. The PRO LIFE's whole argument is that the embryo should be considered a human life so that and that alone is what the Pro Choice side should be focused on debunking if they want to be able to swing the 'dont no's' if ever the referendum comes around. If people like Louise O' Neill are the cheerleaders of the Pro Choice, there is a very good chance they won't be able to swing enough of the 'don't knows' to win the referendum due to their persistent avoidance of tackling the core and crucial argument of the Pro Lifers with any sort of philosophical rigour and their smug moralizing and shaming of anyone who doesn't agree with them!

Unfortunately, I think you are right. I was watching Pat Kenny there last week and Maria Steen from the Iona Institute was on. Much and all as I disagree with her viewpoint, it pains me to admit she ran rings around the pro-choice side in that exchange. She knows her stuff and has her arguments watertight, and if the pro-choice side believe that referring to a foetus as a "clump of cells" amounts to an argument, then they won't be able to win over middle of the road voters. Methinks fighting the Repeal battle on Twitter has left some of these "activists" somewhat lacking when it comes to properly debating their position.

Smegmaniac17 · 08-03-2017 01:00AM

mzungu wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think you are right. I was watching Pat Kenny there last week and Maria Steen from the Iona Institute was on. Much and all as I disagree with her viewpoint, it pains me to admit she ran rings around the pro-choice side in that exchange. She knows her stuff and has her arguments watertight, and if the pro-choice side believe that referring to a foetus as a "clump of cells" amounts to an argument, then they won't be able to win over middle of the road voters. Methinks fighting the Repeal battle on Twitter has left some of these "activists" somewhat lacking when it comes to properly debating their position.

Absolutely! Sure, why not call a fully formed adult just a clump of cells? Why is one clump of cells endowed with an intrinsic moral worth but not another? Who decides? I'm paraphrasing reasonable Pro Life rebuttals to the 'clump of cells', of course. I am not sure if Maria Steen used similar rebuttals but either way, this is the big question that the Pro Choice have to be most focused on because once you can convince the 'don't know's' that the foetus should not be considered a human being, then you have the win in the bag! I'm not sure what the best argument to go about doing this is though that won't inspire a challenging counter-argument from the Pro Life side!! Any ideas?? Maybe, I'd try to establish the likely truth of naturalism for starters but that could take a while!!!

Wibbs · 08-03-2017 01:33AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

She said this on her Twitter 2 days ago

Wtf does this even mean.

What does her father think?

That a "feminist" could write: "claim all the power and take none of the responsibility" without a trace of self awareness and irony beggars belief. Or not, as it happens. That's precisely what her brand of "feminists" claim women want. Little girls maybe, women not so much, or at least I know no adult women who would look for that.

Mountainsandh · 08-03-2017 02:01AM

JRant wrote: »

Well said Anna. It also shows that she hasn't the first clue about the amazing work the healthcare professionals do in maternity hospitals up and down the county. I know from first hand experience that what she has written there is complete and utter tripe.

Mmmmmwwwyyyeah.
I'd love to agree with this but my experience of maternity services in Ireland is DISMAL.
(edit : arguably, in a small-ish general hospital far from Dublin)

I agree her hysterics in general do not serve her cause anyway.

RabbleRouser2k · 08-03-2017 04:31AM

mzungu wrote: »

Unfortunately, I think you are right. I was watching Pat Kenny there last week and Maria Steen from the Iona Institute was on. Much and all as I disagree with her viewpoint, it pains me to admit she ran rings around the pro-choice side in that exchange. She knows her stuff and has her arguments watertight, and if the pro-choice side believe that referring to a foetus as a "clump of cells" amounts to an argument, then they won't be able to win over middle of the road voters. Methinks fighting the Repeal battle on Twitter has left some of these "activists" somewhat lacking when it comes to properly debating their position.

She did this, twice, and really-she just showed how prepared she was each time. Last time she was on, it was about co-educational vs CAtholic schools-and she was up against three people and she 'Killed' up there (as a comedian would say) she just looked so good, so professional-Claire Byrne showed a clear bias, and she highlighted how she, herself, wasn't able to reach the same level of intelligence as Steen.
It was kind of a masterclass-I wanted to disagree with Ms Steen, but she had her facts, reading, and so on done. I had to wonder what RTE were even doing putting her in a debate, with three people, who had 'NO' research done. One was a mom/ actress, and I really questioned why she was there-she had this usual 'parent' thing (hyphens because not every parent is like that) where their experience is the sole experience of 'everyone'-when it's absolutely not.

I swear, RTE gave Trump voters a hard time for their Trump supporters 'feel' rather than facts-but RTE have made the same mistake themselves, time and again.

Glenster wrote: »

If you are supported by someone else you are not independent you are dependent.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/839212795090649090

Plus she tweeted this, without clarity, so she 'could' be joking...or she may not.

Guess which side I fall on?

She also tweeted how for the 'Strike for repeal' she'll be sitting at home with a bed robe on, and no makeup...I don't really thing that's what the strikers want, tbh LoN.

There are some genuinely intelligent Irish female role models on twitter tho-like, I follow ladies like Stefanie Preissner on twitter, and she's actually really refreshing. She's younger than LoN, but she has this independence/ strength about her that's actually rare. Talks a lot about her grandmother too, but in a positive way-not mocking, more admiration. IF there is a mention of anything feminist/ women, it's not in a way that it pollutes her feed-she's said nothing about the 'Tuam babies' for example(God, the amount of feminists babbling on about that-calling for CAB to get involved etc-ugh, learn to law ppl. Yes it was horrible, but the past is ugly, very ugly, and the best one can hope for is try and make sure something like that never happens again. And yes, I was as horrified as anyone reading about it.), and she's been open about stuff like 'I know I should support breast feeding mothers, but I often feel uncomfortable'.
She's actually pretty refreshing. Fun interview too.

(Okay,I have a crush on her- I'll admit that up front...at the end of my post).

Ralf and Florian · 08-03-2017 06:43AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

She said this on her Twitter 2 days ago

Wtf does this even mean.

What does her father think?

Wonder what he thinks of condescending guff like this? Her Dad's never heard of Kanye West and isn't it oh so funny?

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/829789115042381824

RabbleRouser2k · 08-03-2017 08:20AM

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

Wonder what he thinks of condescending guff like this? Her Dad's never heard of Kanye West and isn't it oh so funny?

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/829789115042381824

Meanwhile she hasn't heard of quite a few things herself-ya know, like telling the truth, jumping to conclusions, hypocrisy etc etc

08-03-2017 08:45AM

Is every single word she types, down to observations about her Dad and Kanye West, pounced on and critically analysed?

LuckyLloyd · 08-03-2017 08:51AM

Wibbs wrote: »

That a "feminist" could write: "claim all the power and take none of the responsibility" without a trace of self awareness and irony beggars belief. Or not, as it happens. That's precisely what her brand of "feminists" claim women want. Little girls maybe, women not so much, or at least I know no adult women who would look for that.

Her novels are aimed at teenage girls; she makes a lot of appearances at Universities and Schools; a cursory glance at her social media indicates that a decent percentage of her following are young people. She is peddling a deeply flawed and immature view of the world to young people. The issue of course is that within the context of the ever more compartmentalised and echo chamber laden Internet those young people may never step outside such influences.

The point above about Repeal campaigners coming unstuck in live debate is interesting. When you go on the Repeal website it strikes you as that of a campaign that is way too insular. Lots of angry young women wearing black is probably not the image required to command the middle ground the Marriage Equality referendum ably commanded. The issue may simply be that those involved in the campaign spend their lives articulating themselves to the choir. Dublin is a bubble; everyone's social media is a bubble. Eventually this campaign is going to end up in a key debate on RTE 1 with an inspired Catholic Church and conservative elements actively campaigning up and down the country in the wake of a visit from the Pope. They'll be ready. I fear the Repeal campaign will not.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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