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Opera in Ireland - general discussion thread on all things opera in Ireland

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    #1022
    McLoughlin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,901 ✭✭✭McLoughlin


    We have an Opera House in Wexford and Wexford has shown they can put on great shows year in year out so let Wexford take the lead on a new season

    Opera doesn't have to have its home in the capital city


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    #1023
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    In Italy or Germany, maybe not, but in a country as small as Ireland, the capital is the only sensible option. A small provincial town like Wexford, literally in a corner of the country and with poor road links other than the East coast motorway, would be the last place to base standard opera. Foreigners, the monied, and an opera hard core will support the opere rare of the festival. But they wont go in any numbers, or stay over for standard repertoire. Anything outside Dublin, where the likely hood of the meagre potential opera audience making it viable is best, would be a serious mistake and catastrophic failure. People just wont go, nice small opera house or not. If this is an idea from or supported by the Dept Arts, then they have become even more clueless than they were when they closed Opera Ireland.


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    #1024
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    McLoughlin wrote: »
    We have an Opera House in Wexford and Wexford has shown they can put on great shows year in year out so let Wexford take the lead on a new season

    Opera doesn't have to have its home in the capital city


    If Wexford puts on a season of the standards it will sink without trace


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    #1025
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    marienbad wrote: »
    If Wexford puts on a season of the standards it will sink without trace

    Any standard repertoire opera at the "national" opera house in Wexford AKA the Wexford opera house, needs to be a total separate venture with no Wexford Opera branding, the raison d'etre of WFO is that it is a once a year festival that offers what it does to the international opera community. The brand is immensely strong, its brand values are strong. Any brand that has strong identity is weakened by brand extensions. Guinness know this only too well, Guinness is Guinness is Guinness, attempts over the years to tag the Guinness name to anything but Guinness have always ended in failure.

    I will try and dig out a positioning paper I wrote for Mary Hannafin when she had that brief spell as Minister for the Arts and post it up to share my thinking further on this. This forum might be a good group of people to present some ideas to government that might work.


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    #1026
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    http://www.artscouncil.ie/map-of-funding-decisions-2017/


    The crumbs from the arts council table for next year. €2.2M between OTC and Wex Fest.

    What did OI get in the good old days ?


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    #1027
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    http://www.artscouncil.ie/map-of-funding-decisions-2017/


    The crumbs from the arts council table for next year. €2.2M between OTC and Wex Fest.

    What did OI get in the good old days ?

    Funding of opera is getting worse in this god forsaken country. Indeed when we had OI there was at least a national opera company, now it seems we have the considered jewell in the crown of WFO which is actually an elitist bunch of dedicated opera goers having their night out (me included every 2nd year), OTC could have become the national opera company with correct funding now we have a mix match of Wide open opera on a project by project basis, and the kind of thing we have at Bord Gais theatre the next few nights, a touring opera company headlining an irish soprano, at very expensive prices for what is on offer; which seems to have back fired on them as the availability for La Boheme is still massive. I booked ages ago and cannot believe how many tickets they have left at all prices. the circle at €95 is only about two thirds sold on Friday night and there are still some €35 seats left in the upper circle, - always the first to sell out. It has sold really badly for la boheme for goodness sake if there isn't an audience for this warhorse is there any hope for opera in ireland?


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    #1028
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    westtip wrote: »
    Funding of opera is getting worse in this god forsaken country. Indeed when we had OI there was at least a national opera company, now it seems we have the considered jewell in the crown of WFO which is actually an elitist bunch of dedicated opera goers having their night out (me included every 2nd year), OTC could have become the national opera company with correct funding now we have a mix match of Wide open opera on a project by project basis, and the kind of thing we have at Bord Gais theatre the next few nights, a touring opera company headlining an irish soprano, at very expensive prices for what is on offer; which seems to have back fired on them as the availability for La Boheme is still massive. I booked ages ago and cannot believe how many tickets they have left at all prices. the circle at €95 is only about two thirds sold on Friday night and there are still some €35 seats left in the upper circle, - always the first to sell out. It has sold really badly for la boheme for goodness sake if there isn't an audience for this warhorse is there any hope for opera in ireland?

    Maybe we should take a perverse hope in that failure to sell out Westip , in that might people have as at had their fill of La Boheme Traviata Carmen done by every touring opera outfit for the last 30 years ?

    Is it too much to hope that their might be an audience for something just a tiny bit different ?


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    #1029
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    marienbad wrote: »
    Maybe we should take a perverse hope in that failure to sell out Westip , in that might people have as at had their fill of La Boheme Traviata Carmen done by every touring opera outfit for the last 30 years ?

    Is it too much to hope that their might be an audience for something just a tiny bit different ?

    I agree completely MB, over optimistic to fill that barn for 5 nights for the same opera. Losing the loyalty of an opera audience that will go to companies productions year in year out is the real loss of OI. When i came here in 2000 I remember being optimistic about opera here and how OI modelled on say Scottish Opera or Opera North in the UK could have continued to build an audience who would buy into subscription series and engage with the company. OI fell in its standards at the wrong time Dieter kaegi was a disaster who dragged the company down at a time opera was a soft target to hit during the downturn post Tiger. We are never going to get our national opera company back, I now think opera - Ryanair. It's a great pity, not sure how it can be resolved.


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    #1030
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    westtip wrote: »
    I agree completely MB, over optimistic to fill that barn for 5 nights for the same opera. Losing the loyalty of an opera audience that will go to companies productions year in year out is the real loss of OI. When i came here in 2000 I remember being optimistic about opera here and how OI modelled on say Scottish Opera or Opera North in the UK could have continued to build an audience who would buy into subscription series and engage with the company. OI fell in its standards at the wrong time Dieter kaegi was a disaster who dragged the company down at a time opera was a soft target to hit during the downturn post Tiger. We are never going to get our national opera company back, I now think opera - Ryanair. It's a great pity, not sure how it can be resolved.

    I don't know westtip , I know you voiced your dislike of Dieter Kaegi before but I must confess I simply don't understand it .Sure he presided over some huge clangers but he really staged some brilliant productions also and in the main moved us the right direction .

    Here is an article by Michael Dervan from the time of the closure of OI giving a good overview going right back to the old DGOS , very interesting reading http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/stage/final-curtain-for-opera-ireland-1.678844

    It is interesting that he points that the DGOS was founder BEFORE Scottish Opera etc and yet they managed the transition to professional status and we never even came close , never even came in to our world view . Something that every other European nation takes for granted .

    I think the issues are way bigger than any one institution ,no vision , parochialism , jobs for the boys and girls , and fundamentally no real sustained interest in the Arts as a nation


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    #1031
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    marienbad wrote: »
    .

    I think the issues are way bigger than any one institution ,no vision , parochialism , jobs for the boys and girls , and fundamentally no real sustained interest in the Arts as a nation

    MB you sum it up well, yes I recall that Dervan article, I don't blame Dieter Kaegi, but I do remember booing his Don Carlos, and yes there were some good productions I saw, on the whole I think he was losing the plot towards the end. The final FF government was clueless about opera, and the actual dismantling of OI spelt the end of any coherent strategy. Us epera goers are a tiny minority in this state and we are not going to see our national opera company resurrected, it is just not going to happen.

    Friends booking for the ROH opens for the next booking period next week. it is my only salvation.


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    #1032
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    So many nights, in such a big theatre, particularly at what are undoubtedly too high prices, seems mad.
    However......
    Its wasnt bad actually. And practically full!
    Nothing stellar, nothing to remember, but perfectly acceptable fare for a non opera country like Ireland. Poor Rodolfo struggled with the volume to fill the bjg barn, but sounded like a nice voice that would do well in a smaller hall. C Byrne OK. Stage looked very well.
    And the crowd. Very much the once a year visit to an opera brigade I would guess, but it does show there is indeed some demand. GCT is a lot of bums on seats.
    With some vision, drive, and the right structure, there is a formula for opera in Dublin that should succeed. But it seems we have neither an arts structure nor political arts leadership to implement it. Unfortunately.


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    #1033
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    So many nights, in such a big theatre, particularly at what are undoubtedly too high prices, seems mad.
    However......
    Its wasnt bad actually. And practically full!
    Nothing stellar, nothing to remember, but perfectly acceptable fare for a non opera country like Ireland. Poor Rodolfo struggled with the volume to fill the bjg barn, but sounded like a nice voice that would do well in a smaller hall. C Byrne OK. Stage looked very well.
    And the crowd. Very much the once a year visit to an opera brigade I would guess, but it does show there is indeed some demand. GCT is a lot of bums on seats.
    With some vision, drive, and the right structure, there is a formula for opera in Dublin that should succeed. But it seems we have neither an arts structure nor political arts leadership to implement it. Unfortunately.

    I don't think I have ever been to one of their productions , I don't think I have even been to that theatre .

    What is it like from a music viewpoint , acoustically and such ?


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    #1034
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    So many nights, in such a big theatre, particularly at what are undoubtedly too high prices, seems mad.
    However......
    Its wasnt bad actually. And practically full!
    Nothing stellar, nothing to remember, but perfectly acceptable fare for a non opera country like Ireland. Poor Rodolfo struggled with the volume to fill the bjg barn, but sounded like a nice voice that would do well in a smaller hall. C Byrne OK. Stage looked very well.
    And the crowd. Very much the once a year visit to an opera brigade I would guess, but it does show there is indeed some demand. GCT is a lot of bums on seats.
    With some vision, drive, and the right structure, there is a formula for opera in Dublin that should succeed. But it seems we have neither an arts structure nor political arts leadership to implement it. Unfortunately.

    I went Friday night, didn't particularly find the production inspiring, some quirkiness for a Boheme, but we can live with that. Celine Byrne has come on in leaps since I last heard her, she was about the only one of the principals who could fill this huge barn of a theatre, which is really only suitable for a stellar cast, such is it's size. I was up in the cheap seats (€35 three rows from the back), the tenor could not get up there. he was struggling. This theatre would not be suitable for the output of a normal regional opera company from the UK - say Scottish, or Opera North. They must have sold a lot of tickets late, as is it was fairly full and only looked about half to two thirds sold on ticketmaster on Wednesday afternoon. It was a night out, worth €35 but not the top prices of €120. You can get a dam good seat at the ROH for a lot less than that. Hey look it was a mainstream opera production being performed in Dublin, for that we can be thankful, but this touring opera company from Russia does not represent a vision for opera in Ireland. they are bring Carmen in March, that will be a bodyswerve for me. Can't bear it.


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    #1035
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    marienbad wrote: »
    I don't think I have ever been to one of their productions , I don't think I have even been to that theatre .

    What is it like from a music viewpoint , acoustically and such ?

    Not great. Too big (2000+ seater), and bad overhangs on much of the stalls and the first balcony where sound is very poor. I know nothing of the physics of theatre acoustics, but it always sounds as if it too big - even though I guess Covent Garden, Paris, Milan, etc are as big or bigger, yet seem fine. Maybe it is the quality of voices that I have heard in GCT. Gaiety seems smaller, but while the volume issue doesnt seem to be there, there are terrible reflections from both sides, and the overhang in the stalls is dreadful.

    GCT is also very amateurly run - late starts, people being let in after the doors have closed, single doors with noise leakage from the outside.

    Its main failure as a venue for opera in Dublin though will be the size though. Optimum I feel would be 1000-1200. Big enough to be worthwhile, yet small enough to be able to attract a good audience for 4-5-6 performaces of a given production. Dublin theatres tendency to run a string of nights in a row of a given production also counts against opera - spreading performances over several weeks would maximise the chances of suiting the potential audience. There is nowhere in Dublin really - I would probably prefer concert performances in the NCH if the repertoire and quality were right.


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    #1036
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    I really can't abide the lateness , and then people saying is it just an Irish trait makes it even worse . And it will never stop until venues are ruthless .
    And I agree punctuality is a two way street - starting on time as well as finishing on time .


    I remember year and years ago going to a Production of Richard 3rd in London , can't remember which theatre it was . But as luck would have it a tube strike was called but we managed to secure a taxi which I could ill afford and we seemed to have plenty of time . But alas the traffic was completely fouled up so with a mile or so to go we ditched the cab and walked/ran the last bit in terrible weather .

    We arrived at the theatre about 3 minutes late - doors already closed performance started , and we stood in the foyer with about 20 bedraggled stray cats and listened to that glorious opening from Gloucester '' now is the winter of our discontent .... '' on a small black and white tv in the corner .

    And the management knew everyone had been caught by the strike and while sympathetic didn't relax the rules one bit .

    As a bit of diversion between opera productions we should post funny or bizarre stories from our opera/theatre expeditions


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    #1037
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Anybody else catch Domingo's extended farewell tour in the MET live broadcast of Nabucco last Saturday ?

    Most enjoyable - it really is a lovely work and Verdi only 28 and this his 3rd outing . Grand stuff

    Gounod's Romeo et Juliette Saturday week .


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    #1038
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Is there a straw in the wind?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/fresh-opportunities-open-up-for-opera-in-ireland-1.2991062


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    #1039
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    westtip wrote: »
    Is there a straw in the wind?

    http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/music/fresh-opportunities-open-up-for-opera-in-ireland-1.2991062

    It goes to show you never know how good a thing is until it is gone - OI should never have been let go . Lets hope we get it right this time and take the time and effort to cultivate a proper opera company and audience and give it space to grow .

    Andon an unrelated note westtip - do you know what the short operas are in Wexford this year . I keep checking the website and the main productions are listed times dates etc but no mention of the Short works . Do you have any info ?


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    #1040
    The Green Pixie
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭The Green Pixie


    http://www.wexfordopera.com/media/news/wexford-festival-opera-announces-details-of-2017-programme


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    #1041
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    Phew just about got tickets for Otello with Kaufman on the ROH website bunfight this morning! Can't wait to hear him in this role, I am sure it will like Domingo back in the mid 1980s....very excited!!!


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    #1042
    The Green Pixie
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭The Green Pixie


    Are white singers still allowed to sing Otello?


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    #1043
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    The Green Pixie wrote: »
    Are white singers still allowed to sing Otello?

    Most definitely ,just not done up in blackface , certainly not at the MET or ROH .


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    #1044
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    marienbad wrote: »
    Most definitely ,just not done up in blackface , certainly not at the MET or ROH .

    Domingo never had the black and white minstrel look and what an Otello he was in his peak in the mid 1980s, still sends shivers down the spine thinking of it! Especially his entry onto the stage in Act one, that storm scene is one of the most exhilarating operatic openings! Just cannot wait!


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    #1045
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    westtip wrote: »
    Domingo never had the black and white minstrel look and what an Otello he was in his peak in the mid 1980s, still sends shivers down the spine thinking of it! Especially his entry onto the stage in Act one, that storm scene is one of the most exhilarating operatic openings! Just cannot wait!

    It is my favourite opera ( or at least the one I most come back to ) I saw Domingo in the role , I can't remember where , maybe ROH or the MET . I am fairly sure he was done up in blackface . He certainly was for the marvellous CD recording with Scotto Milnes and Levine .


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    #1046
    The Green Pixie
    Registered Users Posts: 171 ✭✭The Green Pixie


    There seems to be a politically correct "thing" about blacking up white singers for black roles, not just in the opera but in straight theatre as well. So the black roles are reserved for black performers - Othello, Aida etc.
    The trouble is that it doesn't work the other way round. A black singer will always be allowed to be Mary Stuart or Madam Butterfly.


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    #1047
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    The Green Pixie wrote: »
    There seems to be a politically correct "thing" about blacking up white singers for black roles, not just in the opera but in straight theatre as well. So the black roles are reserved for black performers - Othello, Aida etc.
    The trouble is that it doesn't work the other way round. A black singer will always be allowed to be Mary Stuart or Madam Butterfly.

    I think the 'blacking up' is going to be a thing of the past ( it already is in the major houses )and it is not really necessary anyway, particularly in Otello , which is more about the outsider , any outsider .

    Also not every tenor is able to sing Otello or Radames and it is more about the quality of the voice rather than the ethnicity of the singer . Alagna was booed off the stage in La Scala in Aida as his voice was judged not suitable for the role of Radames in their Aida production . His ethnic had nothing to do with it .

    And we have a long tradition of African American sopranos singing everything from Gluck to Wagner . So hopefully opera will continue the tradition of the quality of the voice as the deciding factor in casting decisions . Opera already presupposes a massive suspension of disbelief by the audience anyway so the colour of ones skin is really small matter .

    On a sidenote I have a old dvd of Laurence Oliver playing Otello from the Old Vic ( I think) and put in on a few years ago again and actually found it unwatchable with all the blackface , gurning , and eyerolling . And it was judged a masterpiece in its day . Times change and things move on .


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    #1048
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    The hoohaa a couple of years ago about Tara Erraught at Glyndebourne in Rosenkavalier being too dumpy was similar, or had more merit in the criticism. We are used to transposed opera settings and I think we do all overlook skin colour as a result. In her case, passing as a young count was rather a stretch and while its all about the music for me, I though the criticism, by those who did look both for a credible look in addition to the voice, was reasonable.

    Anyway - some real opera in Ireland again ?
    Disappointed OTC is not being cut out of the loop. A waste of money for me, and would be better spent increasing the quality and number of productions of whatever will be put on in Dublin (and occasional forays to two or three provincial venues), rather than 60 people audiences in Ennis, Navan, etc.
    Any reference or brief for 'artist development' should be removed also. Its the last thing we can afford on this pittance from the council. Let them develop elsewhere where it can be afforded. There is no scope to invest or contribute to the careers of aspiring musicians - we must simply buy in the best we can afford, whereever they come from - hopefully already fully competent.
    Still. Cause for some optimism when one might have thought opera was gone for ever from the country.


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    #1049
    westtip
    Registered Users Posts: 4,282 ✭✭✭westtip


    The Rape of Lucretia wrote: »
    Anyway - some real opera in Ireland again ?
    Disappointed OTC is not being cut out of the loop. A waste of money for me, and would be better spent increasing the quality and number of productions of whatever will be put on in Dublin (and occasional forays to two or three provincial venues), rather than 60 people audiences in Ennis, Navan, etc.
    Any reference or brief for 'artist development' should be removed also. Its the last thing we can afford on this pittance from the council. Let them develop elsewhere where it can be afforded. There is no scope to invest or contribute to the careers of aspiring musicians - we must simply buy in the best we can afford, whereever they come from - hopefully already fully competent.
    Still. Cause for some optimism when one might have thought opera was gone for ever from the country.

    In defence of OTC and audiences of 60 or so in Ennis, this company has done some of the most remarkable opera I have ever seen on a small intimate scale. The Handel they have done over the years in small venues has been superb, the incredible vision to do Fidelio in Kilmainham, they are an incredibly inventive company, who have it well within their management and artistic direction capability to become our national opera company. The model we need to look at is something like Scottish Opera or Opera North. Will it happen, I don't know. There will probably be the usual bitchy infighting of artists in black polos who simply don't refer to the audience.


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    #1050
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Love OTC - simply great productions over the years and as westtip says brilliant Handel .


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    #1051
    The Rape of Lucretia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    I am not really criticising OTC really. I have greatly enjoyed many of their productions over the years also. Rather, the value for money that it brings in terms of numbers that even cumulatively from the small venues do not amount to much. In a country as small as Ireland I dont think there can be a case made for taking the opera to the people - the people should come to the opera. In Dublin principally, but occasionally Limerick or Cork maybe. Nor do I think that there has been any dividend in its years operating of 'spreading the gospel' and attracting any significant new following for opera in general. Again, ideally, I would love if we could have it also. But just think we would be better served pumping every cent into putting on as much full scale opera, of as high a quality as we can afford, as possible. And that OTC is an indulgence that we cannot afford.


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