Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

Paulzx · 05-03-2017 01:49PM

Stoner wrote: »

You'd imagine with decent options at halfback that Mayo will have to get more from Lee Keegan. There should be more benifit to the team from having a current FOTY.
We know he can score, but helping out in midfield like some other noted talents do is something I think there is a win in for Mayo. He could provide better options for kickouts, it might be unpopular here but I think there is an over emphasis on keeping his man scoreless

Agreed. An absolutely fantastic player that is spending his whole time concentrating on someone elses game. He's an absolute thoroughbred of a player. A good man marking job can be done by a lesser player who is fit, can concentrate and has an ability to stick to the task. Keegan is so much more than this.

I'd love to see him tear the shackles off this year and play his own game. That's up to the management though

seligehgit · 05-03-2017 05:01PM

I think my sentiments have been pretty much summed up but boy that was some tanking we were on the receiving end of.Thoroughly disappointing display in a freezing Croke Park to compound the misery.Although we squandered any goal chances we had and hit some awful wides the score flatttered us.Men against boys.

Dublin minus up to seven All Ireland starters were frighteningly good.They are on a different level.Their fitness and intensity levels are phenomenal and in Brian Fenton they possess the finest footballer in the country on current form.Dublin have a real cutting edge in front of the posts although they at times overelaborated trying to walk the ball into the net.The quality of the footpassing and movement was in stark contrast to the paucity of same in our case.The quality of players they were missing should concern us in the context of our matchday performance..Connolly,Cooper,McCaffrey,McCarthy and O Sullivan.They shan't walk back on to the team.O Gara the least aesthetic footballer I possibly have ever laid my eyes upon relishes a joust with the Green and Red.Although his goal attempt in the first half gave me my solitary moment of mirth in Croker last night.I asked my mate did he hit the post?

TBH I can see no possibilty of Kerry beating them and putting an end to their unbeaten and likely record run.In fact I can only see another successful defence of their All Ireland title.Tyrone look the best equipped team to beat them,the Red Hand boys get under their skin and can frustrate them with a successful blanket defence and break quickly.Their template seems to work best.

We have real issues in the number one position,David Clarke is our best goalkeeeper,an excellent shotstopper and commanding in the air and large square.However I closed my eyes everytime he kicked the ball out last night awaiting another disaster.Cluxton hardly put a foot wrong last night.Robert Hennelly under the high ball frequently has cost us and in the replay last year cost us dearly on his kickouts.I believe it was the wrong decision to drop Clarke last year but I can see the rationale behind it.If perchance we meet Dublin later in the championship Clarke's kickouts will be targeted mercilessly.

We are struggling in the full back line,O Gara was a real handful for Keith Higgins and Paddy Durcan is wasted in the corner.

It was truly amazing how much the players stood off their opposite numbers,the players appeared very leggy..heavy week's training?I've mixed feelings re the argument about our inability to compete with Dublin in terms of panel depth.It's largely factually correct but it can't account such an anaemic performance and the psychological benefits to the team of a win or at the very least a competitive performance.

We were destroyed at midfield,Seamus O Shea was sorely missed.Last night we won virtually no breaking ball and oftentimes were starved of possession.Our final ball inside was very poor and we tended to overelaborate,Fergal Boland is very comfortable on the ball but like many others struggled against such a good defence.Diarmuid O Connor definitely looks out of sorts,burnout?Andy Moran showed well for ball but said possession was largely received in the corners.Evan Regan is learning the reality of playing inter county football.

Cillian O Connor reliabilty as a freetaker in the last couple of years if my memory is still serving me well is'nt what it was.His reputation as a bete noir for Dublin fans and zero popularity with the Hill will not have been enhanced by what appeared to a red card offence.There was an overzealousness by some of our players that was borderline over the edge,totally unnecessary.

Agree that the utilisation of Lee Keegan as a manmarker/spoiler is to the detriment of the team.Perhaps it is time to take a chance and entrust other players to mark the Diarmuid Connollys of this world.Ger Cafferkey I hear yet again should be back very soon,his absence in the full back line is immense.

The reality in large part we'll be relying on the same lads to go back to the well this summer,in spite of all the criticism Aidan O Shea receives he is sorely missed.

padd b1975 · 05-03-2017 06:07PM

I hate that raindance Clarke does to get onto his kicking foot, the delay just telegraphs his intentions to the opposition.

Am I being too critical, or is it reasonable to expect an inter county player to be able to trickle the ball twenty yards off either foot??

TCDStudent1 · 05-03-2017 06:09PM

padd b1975 wrote: »

I hate that raindance Clarke does to get onto his kicking foot, the delay just telegraphs his intentions to the opposition.

Am I being too critical, or is it reasonable to expect an inter county player to be able to trickle the ball twenty yards off either foot??

Can't think of any goalkeeper who takes kick outs with both feet?

PressRun · 05-03-2017 06:09PM

seligehgit wrote: »

Diarmuid O Connor definitely looks out of sorts,burnout?

He hasn't looked right since that injury last year. He has been playing a crazy amount of football for the last year solid and desperately needs to be rested, imo.

seligehgit wrote: »

Cillian O Connor reliabilty as a freetaker in the last couple of years if my memory is still serving me well is'nt what it was.His reputation as a bete noir for Dublin fans and zero popularity with the Hill will not have been enhanced by what appeared to a red card offence.

Couldn't care less what the Hill think about anything, tbh.

But I heard a worrying rumour about two months ago about where Cillian is at mentally. I brushed it off at the time as just talk, but I'm wondering whether or not there might be a curnal of truth in it. He did well against Roscommon, but I don't know how much he has actually been enjoying football recently. In any case, he needs to play closer to goal, imo.

seligehgit wrote: »

Ger Cafferkey I hear yet again should be back very soon,his absence in the full back line is immense.

We need him back as a solid number three. Having no consistency in the fullback line and nobody to hold the fort there is not workable long term.

Paulzx · 05-03-2017 06:33PM

seligehgit wrote: »

The reality in large part we'll be relying on the same lads to go back to the well this summer,in spite of all the criticism Aidan O Shea receives he is sorely missed.

Is there an arguement to be made to play him in midfield purely to try and win kickouts?

If both Mayo keepers are incapable of pinpoint accuracy (I'm only repeating what people are saying about them) would it not be better to hit it long and allow Mayos big lads to compete for it and avoid the opposition winning clean ball.

At least if possession is lost it is well out the pitch. If kicks are inaccurate, short kick outs present instant scoring opportunities to the opposition when they win possession.

At least hitting it long means the opposition have to work for a score after winning the ball.

Audioslaven · 05-03-2017 06:41PM

km79 wrote: »

He is
BUT
The dubs target his kickouts and will do so again if we meet later in the summer .
We need a plan B for the kickouts as a whole but I suppose we were missing the option of going long to the o Shea's as NOBODY was capable of winning their own ball

But sure some would have the o Shea's on the bench too cos we have so many better options apparently

Again illsay look back at both matches last year and see just how much ball Aidan won and scored he laid on
Seamie poor first game nearly our MOTM second game

I am not so sure you can apply a BUT as this is not particularly attributed to Clarke but more so a team issue. If a plan A/B/C is developed, the players need to make the runs for Clarke to deliver the ball. Cluxton has his mini meltdowns as well and he is looked on as one of best keepers but if the players don't make the runs for him and are closely marked, he really looks out of sync and the hands start waving.

seligehgit · 05-03-2017 06:42PM

Clarke's raindance as was so aptly described is infuriating,it does indeed telegraph said kickouts..worse still it can delay further his oft slow restarts.His kickouts tend to have a hanging trajectory offering the opposition ample to set themselves up positionally.

I was more referencing an episode of unnecessary foul play by Cillian O Connor,I put watching back this horror show of a contest in cold storage.He would'nt be human if the hostility of some Dublin fans towards him did'nt cut but he is hardly helping himself.He can be petulant and like to be in the referee's ear yet I believe some dislike him for his admirable cold minded professionalism.He's not on the pitch to make friends.

I'd be greatly saddened if Cillian was'nt enjoying his football.I would not blame him though,he's on the road a long time for such a young man without the reward he seeks.The mental toll on all the Mayo players must be significant,you got to feel for them.

seligehgit · 05-03-2017 06:58PM

Paulzx wrote: »

Is there an arguement to be made to play him in midfield purely to try and win kickouts?

If both Mayo keepers are incapable of pinpoint accuracy (I'm only repeating what people are saying about them) would it not be better to hit it long and allow Mayos big lads to compete for it and avoid the opposition winning clean ball.

At least if possession is lost it is well out the pitch. If kicks are inaccurate, short kick outs present instant scoring opportunities to the opposition when they win possession.

At least hitting it long means the opposition have to work for a score after winning the ball.

There could be an argument made,the short kickouts are becoming ridiculously high risk against Dublin in particular.Their basketball like high court press is putting huge pressure on the Clarke kickout.TBF to David Clarke as has been mentioned players have got to make runs or he can be made to look foolish.

ATM Dublin have by a country mile the best midfield in the country with McAuley and Fenton,mobility wise,fielding skills and footpassing wise so perhaps swamping the middle with Parsons and the two O Sheas is worth exploring.

Yet the argument goes that Aidan is asked to be a jack of all trades and is suffering as a result.Einstein himself could'nt come up with the fit that best equips us to beat the Dubs,I don't envy Stephen Rochford.:)It comes down to for me Dublin have simply the best footballers in the country atm.

PressRun · 05-03-2017 07:41PM

seligehgit wrote: »

Clarke's raindance as was so aptly described is infuriating,it does indeed telegraph said kickouts..worse still it can delay further his oft slow restarts.His kickouts tend to have a hanging trajectory offering the opposition ample to set themselves up positionally.

I was more referencing an episode of unnecessary foul play by Cillian O Connor,I put watching back this horror show of a contest in cold storage.He would'nt be human if the hostility of some Dublin fans towards him did'nt cut but he is hardly helping himself.He can be petulant and like to be in the referee's ear yet I believe some dislike him for his admirable cold minded professionalism.He's not on the pitch to make friends.

I'd be greatly saddened if Cillian was'nt enjoying his football.I would not blame him though,he's on the road a long time for such a young man without the reward he seeks.The mental toll on all the Mayo players must be significant,you got to feel for them.

Well, this is just it, he's not on the pitch to make friends, much less with anyone standing in the hill. The Dublin fans can whinge all they want, but the fact remains that there aren't any angels playing for Dublin either. That's football. Nobody gets to the highest level by being nice.

He is at a stage in his life were I'd imagine a lot of young players wonder whether it's worth missing out on the things people their own age are doing just to play football. The game has gotten very serious in recent years and I don't know how much joy there is in Mayo football in particular since Horan left, and events over the winter have not helped. I wouldn't blame him at all if he felt like there are better, less stressful ways to enjoy his 20s.

Fowler87 · 05-03-2017 07:52PM

Interesting point made by Press and have tend to agree. Sometimes you'd wonder if stepping away for year or 2 and just play club football or whatever (aka Sean Armstrong,Meehan etc.) may be of benefit to likes of COC and AOS in particular. Just to clear their heads if anything else. Still young to return and make an impact down the line. Did McD no harm at all.

Obviously this would hamper our chances hugely but at the end of the day these lads are amateurs

TCDStudent1 · 05-03-2017 08:15PM

Fowler87 wrote: »

Interesting point made by Press and have tend to agree. Sometimes you'd wonder if stepping away for year or 2 and just play club football or whatever (aka Sean Armstrong,Meehan etc.) may be of benefit to likes of COC and AOS in particular. Just to clear their heads if anything else. Still young to return and make an impact down the line. Did McD no harm at all.

Obviously this would hamper our chances hugely but at the end of the day these lads are amateurs

The problem is that if you step away from it, it can be incredibly difficult to get back.

NabyLadistheman · 06-03-2017 11:36AM

By dropping Clarke for the replay it was an admittance by management that we are struggling with restarts. Anybody who was at the Tyrone game & also the first Dublin game will be perfectly aware how Clarke's kick-outs go. Not very far & high and loopy. Dublin being the well-drilled outfit they are have cottoned on to this and there high court press has us in a world of difficulty. When we apply the same tactic against Dublin Cluxton simply pings it far & wide to a runner on the touchline, we do not have this option. It's up to management now to address this & help Clarke out. We do not have a replacement option so he needs to improve. It's the only option. At least we do not have to worry about Dublin again for a long time!

I still cannot get my head around how flat the performance was. Looks like the players were not sure what was happening & a lack of guidance form management. Time & time again we have seen that Boyle cannot play sweeper. Yet there he was deployed. We turn McLoughlin into a sweeper last year where he excelled as the season progressed & now he's back to orthodox half-forward. Is it a case of management not wanting to show they're hand? If so very poor decision on their behalf, long-term effects of a beating like this are not good.

Lads, speculating on how a players head is not very good. A poster spoke of a rumour he heard months ago, this has no substance & I don't think we should be speculating on it. There was no talk of him not enjoying his football after victories in Kerry & a great performance against Roscommon

MayoAreMagic · 06-03-2017 11:39AM

In fairness to rochford, he took a huge amount of flak for dropping Clarke, but it was clear at the weekend that Dublin have done work on targeting his kickouts. What I don't get is why don't we do what Dublin do and just keep going shorter with them when people are pushing up?

MayoAreMagic · 06-03-2017 11:43AM

Bambi wrote: »

Wat was your full back at for the first ball into O'Gara, standing miles off him ..you'd swear he was afraid of him

You'd want to tell some of your lads to stay out of the fridge from here on, Keegan and a few others look like they've wintered well :eek:

The plan was leave him free in front of goal and hope they pass to him

NabyLadistheman · 06-03-2017 11:45AM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

In fairness to rochford, he took a huge amount of flak for dropping Clarke, but it was clear at the weekend that Dublin have done work on targeting his kickouts. What I don't get is why don't we do what Dublin do and just keep going shorter with them when people are pushing up?

Because Cluxton is absolutely rapid. I could not believe how quick he was getting to on the tee & distributing it

Blackjack · 06-03-2017 11:55AM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

In fairness to rochford, he took a huge amount of flak for dropping Clarke, but it was clear at the weekend that Dublin have done work on targeting his kickouts. What I don't get is why don't we do what Dublin do and just keep going shorter with them when people are pushing up?

This. The last 10 minutes of the drawn game showed why Clarke was dropped, his kickouts were wayward and Dublin picked up 3 or 4 points directly from them. It really was something Rochford had to try to address and unfortunately for Hennelly, he didn't have a great day either - 1 kickout lead to Keegan being sent to the bench and the Penalty incident both gamechangers we didn't need.

Clarke is a far better shot stopper and better at all aspects of the game bar the kickouts, where Hennelly is much better and far better at the long range shots.

TCDStudent1 · 06-03-2017 12:24PM

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Because Cluxton is absolutely rapid. I could not believe how quick he was getting to on the tee & distributing it

That's the thing. Cluxton's kickouts are brilliant. I was also shocked at how quick he was kicking them out on Saturday. When he went long, they were very pinpoint kicks. One kickout in the second half was placed towards cusack stand and right into hands of Flynn, I think. People often point out that dublin gave players making great runs for kick outs and why don't our team do that. The problem is other teams just don't have cluxton who has taken goalkeeping to a completely new level in GAA.

EICVD · 06-03-2017 01:03PM

If only you guys could have a Clarke/ Hennelly hybrid clone, even then he'd probably have Clarkes kick outs & Hennellys shot stopping attributes ðŸ˜‰

blinding · 06-03-2017 01:15PM

EICVD wrote: »

If only you guys could have a Clarke/ Hennelly hybrid clone, even then he'd probably have Clarkes kick outs & Hennellys shot stopping attributes ðŸ˜‰

Mayo should be allowed Clark in goal and Kennelly for the kickouts.........

We deserve some sort of dispensation for ....keeping on keeping on;)

naughto · 06-03-2017 01:18PM

If we had sos in midfield and not gibbons it would have helped Clark with kicking to the centre.
The short kick outs it seems to put or backs under a lot of pressure yet when Dublin do it they have no trouble do we need to pull more players back when where going short to make sure we have an overlap of players to kick to.

charlie14 · 06-03-2017 01:33PM

naughto wrote: »

If we had sos in midfield and not gibbons it would have helped Clark with kicking to the centre.
The short kick outs it seems to put or backs under a lot of pressure yet when Dublin do it they have no trouble do we need to pull more players back when where going short to make sure we have an overlap of players to kick to.

Nowadays lumping high ball into midfield against the top teams is a "Hail Mary" strategy.
Dublin have probably the best fielder of high ball in the country at the moment in Fenton, plus Macauley if it breaks, and they vary their kick-outs.
Nowadays to succeed at the top level requires goalkeepers to be able to hit their man accurately with the ball anywhere within their own half.

naughto · 06-03-2017 02:12PM

charlie14 wrote: »

Nowadays lumping high ball into midfield against the top teams is a "Hail Mary" strategy.
Dublin have probably the best fielder of high ball in the country at the moment in Fenton, plus Macauley if it breaks, and they vary their kick-outs.
Nowadays to succeed at the top level requires goalkeepers to be able to hit their man accurately with the ball anywhere within their own half.

I didn't say any thing about a hail Mary to midfield with sos it gives an option to go long when the short kick outs are not working.
Like sat night we had no midfield so we had to play short.
Where we lost the game was going man to man against Dublin why didn't we do what Donegal/Tyrone and flood or back line with players and have the likes of Leroy/Higgins bombing forward running at the dubs back line.

MayoAreMagic · 06-03-2017 02:24PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

That's the thing. Cluxton's kickouts are brilliant. I was also shocked at how quick he was kicking them out on Saturday. When he went long, they were very pinpoint kicks. One kickout in the second half was placed towards cusack stand and right into hands of Flynn, I think. People often point out that dublin gave players making great runs for kick outs and why don't our team do that. The problem is other teams just don't have cluxton who has taken goalkeeping to a completely new level in GAA.

He does be retrieving the next ball once he is sure it isn't dropping short or hitting the post. Clarke could be doing this too in fairness.

However, I don't think this is really fair in general. Like if a team manages to create a scoring chance, and some guy is caught napping by his man, who goes up and gets into a scoring opportunity, is it right for him to be then punished for being out of position by a quick kickout to his man who was too lazy to track him? Id be of the thinking that the attacking team should be given some amount of chance to get organised again, maybe 10 seconds or something like that.

seligehgit · 06-03-2017 02:40PM

It's a tad mindboggling why we aren't following the Tyrone template of flooding players back,Dublin seem to struggle most with that setup.At the very least the relatively successful use of Kevin Mc as a sweeper,same seems to have gone in cold storage.Going man to man with the Dubs is suicidal.

homewardbound11 · 06-03-2017 03:05PM

No one talked of the risk of Henley under high ball . 2012 and 2016 were enough for me.

The reason we were cleaned st mid field was that out natural half back line were in the full back positions . Breaking balls were lost as was the transition into attack .

We didn't have the power to hold of players in the forward line and that caused players to be isolated . All of the above is easily rectified so I wouldn't panic just yet .
the

Stoner · 06-03-2017 03:20PM

seligehgit wrote:

It's a tad mindboggling why we aren't following the Tyrone template of flooding players back,Dublin seem to struggle most with that setup.At the very least the relatively successful use of Kevin Mc as a sweeper,same seems to have gone in cold storage.Going man to man with the Dubs is suicidal.

It's also interesting that Mayo are set up to handle the likes of Tyrone better than anyone else. I suppose to a degree you either have those types of players or you don't.

corny · 06-03-2017 04:29PM

seligehgit wrote: »

It's a tad mindboggling why we aren't following the Tyrone template of flooding players back,Dublin seem to struggle most with that setup.At the very least the relatively successful use of Kevin Mc as a sweeper,same seems to have gone in cold storage.Going man to man with the Dubs is suicidal.

Its not unusual to play one way in the spring and then produce shock and awe in the summer. Donegal used to do it all the time. They'd play fairly open games with Dublin in the league, if memory serves, only to park the proverbial bus in the summer.

Mayo certainly made it claustrophobic for Dublin in the final last year. Doubt they'll stray too much from that when it really matters in the summer.

charlie14 · 06-03-2017 05:04PM

naughto wrote: »

I didn't say any thing about a hail Mary to midfield with sos it gives an option to go long when the short kick outs are not working.
Like sat night we had no midfield so we had to play short.
Where we lost the game was going man to man against Dublin why didn't we do what Donegal/Tyrone and flood or back line with players and have the likes of Leroy/Higgins bombing forward running at the dubs back line.

Apology if that is how my post read.
My point was that where a kick-out to midfield is to be effective, it cannot be hit in a "Hail Mary" fashion into the middle.
It, as do short kick-outs, has to be precisely targeted to give the target the maximum advantage of winning it.
Similar to what Cluxton bring to Dublin.
As in Dublin`s case you need a keeper who can deliver that, but you also need a strategy where the outfield players work in tandem with the keeper, which is as much to do with how good they are on kick-outs as Cluxton`s precision.
Interesting that you mention Donegal and Tyrone in regards to Dublin. I agree with you comepleely and posted here a few days ago that attempting to take on Dublin in a one-on-one shoot out is a hiding to nothing.
Just in regards to Donegal and kick-out.
Donegal`s keeper nowadays is no Durcan on kick-outs, but they appear to have overcome that with a strategy where the outfield players work to give him options by movement by some who know it isn`t going to come their way to mask where they know it is going.
Basically what I am saying, even if you have a keeper like Cluxton, it still requires a plan worked on in training involving all the team to maximise the benefits.
If you don`t have such a keeper then you need a strategy that all the team know, that involves more than lumping out ball in hope.
And while some here may not like it, against Dublin on kick-outs there didn`t seem to be any plan regarding your own kick outs or how to deal with Dublin`s.

Shurimgreat · 06-03-2017 06:16PM

I think Rochford needs to read the inter-county Manager's handbook again because it clearly states on page 1, paragraph 1, "Thou shalt not play Dublin 1 to 1"

Only some form of blanket defence works, especially early in the league. I hope he takes some lessons from this defeat.

Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

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