"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

05-03-2017 02:16PM

smurgen wrote: »

I would love to see the authorities freeze assets until all sites excavated and full investigation carried out.any and all costs to trace dna,provide proper burials and compensation to victims should be billed to the church.if there is not enough money then land and buildings owned by them should be sold off.i'd like to see it treated the way C.A.B deals with other organised criminals.

CAB deals with the proceeds of crime. We can say a lot about the Church, but not sure they're really accused of bank heists, drug trafficking or the other classic activities that give rise to CAB intervention.

Mrs OBumble · 05-03-2017 02:18PM

smurgen wrote: »

s to trace dna

You really think that Irish families are going to allow science to prove that they actually send their young women in to the homes?

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Haven't heard such a good joke in ages.

As various posters have said, the few families with any backbone did not allow pregnant women to go there, or children to be send to industrial schools. These ones proved that it was quite possible to stand up to the social pressure from neighbours and the church.

The vast majority were spineless wimps who cared more about being shamed than about their kids.

Nothing has changed.

Graces7 · 05-03-2017 02:20PM

One to read.. glad re the plaque

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/babies-died-tuam-horror-home-9965591

Caroleia · 05-03-2017 02:22PM

Deleted User wrote: »

CAB deals with the proceeds of crime. We can say a lot about the Church, but not sure they're really accused of bank heists, drug trafficking or the other classic activities that give rise to CAB intervention.

The fallout from what they've done is going to cost money. What has it cost so far to uncover what happened at Tuam? And there are calls for DNA tests and proper burials for the poor wee mites - why shouldn't the organisation that was responsible for these crimes pay for the reparations?

Graces7 · 05-03-2017 02:22PM

cactusgal wrote: »

Yes and no. I'm following this discussion with interest as my mother joined the convent at 13 years old. She was from a poor farming background in Galway, when the nuns came to the national school to ask if any of them felt they had a vocation to religious life, she was the first to raise her hand. Her parents asked her if she was sure this was what she wanted, and she was. Though she mentioned some negative things (the Mother Superior -despite being her father's cousin- was very harsh, she wasn't allowed home for her grandfather's funeral), she always said that, up to becoming a mother, her life in the convent was the happiest time in her life. She was always a deeply religious woman, and she loved the religious life.

She stayed for 17 years, age 13 to 31, from 1951 to 1969. She never gave a clear answer as to why she left, just that things were changing when Vatican 2 came in, but I honestly don't know why. She did say that for a lot of families, having a nun who'd left the convent would have been deeply shameful, but that her father wrote her a beautiful letter, saying that he supported her decision.

She has late stage Alzheimer's now. In a way, I'm glad that she can't understand what's come out about the church. It would break her heart. I dearly wish, though, that I could ask her about her experiences, and how something so awful could have happened. So many of the surnames of the dead children were the same as her neighbours in East Galway.

I miss her deeply.

Vatican 2 took the heart and the guts out of religious life. She did well to leave as many did at that time.

Daisy78 · 05-03-2017 02:23PM

I'm following this story with some interest as I went to school across the road from the burial site. My grandfather would also have made deliveries to the home on occasion.

Whilst the church is rightly to blame for what has happened you have to ask why society as a whole allowed these types of situations to persist. Where were the journalists back in day to probe deeper into these institutions to find out what was going on? To a certain extent i believe that there was a large cross section of society (both the church and the laeity) who thrived on the opportunity to dominate and repress people they saw as less than them, less pious,less deserving, less human in the pretext of carrying out God's work, despite the fact that little compassion or kindness was shown towards the children in their care. There was nothing Christian about it. The way these institutions treated the children under their watch and their unfortunate mother's was as much to do with ego and power as it was to do with acting on the principles of their faith. And part of me thinks that this subjegation suited wider sections of the community as well.... a hierarchical structure where everyone knew their place and their value within it. A former resident of the home told the story of how he found it difficult to build relationships as an adult as the story would go out as to his former past as a child of an unwed mother.It shows the narrow mindedness that existed long after the home shut its doors.

cactusgal · 05-03-2017 02:28PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Vatican 2 took the heart and the guts out of religious life. She did well to leave as many did at that time.

That's interesting, Graces ... Yes, she said that a lot of her friends left around the same time. I was brought up in the States (my mother emigrated after leaving the convent), and, funnily enough, her closest circle of friends in the USA were ex-nuns from Ireland who'd also emigrated and then married American men. As a very young child, I thought a spell in the convent before marriage was what all women did after college!

BlinkingLights · 05-03-2017 02:31PM

I think though you've also got to see it in the context of how much power the church wielded socially and politically at the time too.

There was definitely an element of sweeping anything that didn't comply with a narrow view of the world info the most convenient institution never to be seen again.

However, there was a element trying to create a kind of Holy Catholic Ireland in a nearly Irish Stepford Wives clean, tree lined suburbia, villages with dancing at the crossroads, plenty of Mass. Sex well hidden away. No social problems. No visible disability or poverty. No descenting opinions, especially anything left leaning. No divorce because all marriages work perfectly. Everyone was heterosexual and nobody ever got pregnant outside marriage despite the complete ban on contraception. Every house had 14 kids per family, all washed and somehow paid and everyone fluent in Irish. Nuns and priests on bicycles running everything etc etc

It suited a middle class conservative brigade too.

Kinda conservative catholic fantasy land that Ireland never was unless you beat it into submission and locked up anything that didn't conform.

You also had a modern emerging Ireland that was middle class and simply seemed to exist outside of this. If you had money, you lived in the suburbs or didn't ever need to deal with social services etc etc you never encountered the nasty side of these organisations.

Very much a two tier society.

I'm sure many of us have encountered the Bons Secours sisters in the context of their lovely private hospitals that only let you in if you've insurance. They make great tea and have lots of high end medical facilities. So it is hard to believe that there's this other side to them.

mzungu · 05-03-2017 02:34PM

Samaris wrote: »

Young men into the priesthood too.

All the following is absolute and pure supposition, based on a few notions that have been coming forward, so many doses of salt here!

But something that struck me, reading various accounts of young women sent to these places; some of them had no idea what sex actually was or how they got pregnant. Sex education being what it wasn't at the time, I can believe this. So there were presumably also young men who also weren't taught what exactly sex was or how babies are made. Sure, some of it is instinctual on both party's parts, but still.

A concept I've been reading about lately in regards to paedophilia is that some people may not necessarily mature in their sexual preferences as normal*. Mostly, once hitting puberty, we're attracted to people of roughly the same age and development. So what happens when you take young men who have not been taught about sex, and lamp them into an order where sexual maturity is not important, not taught and regarded as all generally somewhat unclean (same goes for masturbation and any other ways of relieving sexual tension). Could it be that in those circumstances, much like if a child isn't taught how to speak or behave, their growth will be stunted in those areas, a young man entering a seminary -may- not mature mentally regarding his sexuality and could be more prone to be attracted to children of the ages where he himself was held back?

I dunno, it's not very well explained, it might be absolute nonsense and it doesn't explain younger children (although that may be ease of getting away with it). But still, there is the question of why it seems to have happened so much within religious orders. Some of that may just be that there's focus on it, but there really does seem to be more than would be reasonably expected going by the general population.

*Note - it's only a theory. There is really very little study into the whys of paedophilia.

Didn't the John Jay Report find that there were more or less the same amount of child molesters in most professions? Like the you said above, it is just a theory (and an interesting one at that). But it doesn't explain the prevalence in other professions and throughout society.

Caroleia · 05-03-2017 02:34PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Vatican 2 took the heart and the guts out of religious life. She did well to leave as many did at that time.

What happened in Tuam happened well before Vatican 2 - what is your point ?

Sofiztikated · 05-03-2017 02:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

CAB deals with the proceeds of crime. We can say a lot about the Church, but not sure they're really accused of bank heists, drug trafficking or the other classic activities that give rise to CAB intervention.

But surely fraud, human trafficking and murder would give them a sniff.

Al Capone being caught on tax evasion, and all that.

Seth Brundle · 05-03-2017 03:03PM

Daisy78 wrote: »

Whilst the church is rightly to blame for what has happened you have to ask why society as a whole allowed these types of situations to persist. Where were the journalists back in day to probe deeper into these institutions to find out what was going on? To a certain extent i believe that there was a large cross section of society (both the church and the laeity) who thrived on the opportunity to dominate and repress people they saw as less than them, less pious,less deserving, less human in the pretext of carrying out God's work, despite the fact that little compassion or kindness was shown towards the children in their care. There was nothing Christian about it. The way these institutions treated the children under their watch and their unfortunate mother's was as much to do with ego and power as it was to do with acting on the principles of their faith. And part of me thinks that this subjegation suited wider sections of the community as well.... a hierarchical structure where everyone knew their place and their value within it. A former resident of the home told the story of how he found it difficult to build relationships as an adult as the story would go out as to his former past as a child of an unwed mother.It shows the narrow mindedness that existed long after the home shut its doors.

There were cultural norms back then similar to Victorian England. Kids didn't matter on a grand level. Unmarried mothers were looked down upon and no man would want to marry one. They were a massive embarrassment.
I am in no way absolving the church from its part.
However, people knew that the residents weren't adequately looked after. They looked bad. Their clothes looked bad. It was obviouso to all. Nobody cared. The authorities didn't care either.

People now wonder how could it have happened. It happened because people didn't care. These people didn't matter.

How many of those giving out about the treatment in the likes of Tuam are doing so on their iPhone part made by poverty and child labour?

smurgen · 05-03-2017 03:14PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You really think that Irish families are going to allow science to prove that they actually send their young women in to the homes?

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Haven't heard such a good joke in ages.

As various posters have said, the few families with any backbone did not allow pregnant women to go there, or children to be send to industrial schools. These ones proved that it was quite possible to stand up to the social pressure from neighbours and the church.

The vast majority were spineless wimps who cared more about being shamed than about their kids.

Nothing has changed.

I heard a woman on newstalk whos brother went to the tuam home and she was sent to a different home say she wanted to know where his body was or if it was in these tanks.do you not think she deserves an answer?

jameorahiely · 05-03-2017 03:17PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Where?

Ironic you should ask that as you were one of the participants in the thread about it, defending the organisation.

eviltwin · 05-03-2017 03:17PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

You really think that Irish families are going to allow science to prove that they actually send their young women in to the homes?

Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. Haven't heard such a good joke in ages.

As various posters have said, the few families with any backbone did not allow pregnant women to go there, or children to be send to industrial schools. These ones proved that it was quite possible to stand up to the social pressure from neighbours and the church.

The vast majority were spineless wimps who cared more about being shamed than about their kids.

Nothing has changed.

There parents are mostly dead now. Their siblings don't carry any of the responsibility. If they, or the women themselves, would like to find their family member we should do everything we can to make that happen.

eviltwin · 05-03-2017 03:18PM

jameorahiely wrote: »

Ironic you should ask that as you were one of the participants in the thread about it, defending the organisation.

Well that really clears things up don't it? :rolleyes:

smurgen · 05-03-2017 03:56PM

eviltwin wrote: »

There parents are mostly dead now. Their siblings don't carry any of the responsibility. If they, or the women themselves, would like to find their family member we should do everything we can to make that happen.

Such as this man Peter Mulryan,former Tuam resident who doesn't know where his siters body is http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/peter-mulryan/

smurgen · 05-03-2017 03:59PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

CAB deals with the proceeds of crime. We can say a lot about the Church, but not sure they're really accused of bank heists, drug trafficking or the other classic activities that give rise to CAB intervention.

People trafficing is,slave labour is.Perfoming medical trials without parental consent most definately is.

kylith · 05-03-2017 04:01PM

BlinkingLights wrote: »

I think though you've also got to see it in the context of how much power the church wielded socially and politically at the time too.

There was definitely an element of sweeping anything that didn't comply with a narrow view of the world info the most convenient institution never to be seen again.

However, there was a element trying to create a kind of Holy Catholic Ireland in a nearly Irish Stepford Wives clean, tree lined suburbia, villages with dancing at the crossroads, plenty of Mass. Sex well hidden away. No social problems. No visible disability or poverty. No descenting opinions, especially anything left leaning. No divorce because all marriages work perfectly. Everyone was heterosexual and nobody ever got pregnant outside marriage despite the complete ban on contraception. Every house had 14 kids per family, all washed and somehow paid and everyone fluent in Irish. Nuns and priests on bicycles running everything etc etc

It suited a middle class conservative brigade too.

Kinda conservative catholic fantasy land that Ireland never was unless you beat it into submission and locked up anything that didn't conform.

And no-one should forget that there are people in this country who would see us all back there.

Mr.Wemmick · 05-03-2017 04:20PM

kbannon wrote: »

However, people knew that the residents weren't adequately looked after. They looked bad. Their clothes looked bad. It was obviouso to all. Nobody cared. The authorities didn't care either.

People now wonder how could it have happened. It happened because people didn't care. These people didn't matter.

How many of those giving out about the treatment in the likes of Tuam are doing so on their iPhone part made by poverty and child labour?

My mother told me the story of my father's aunt who as a young woman eloped with a boy. Both were found and dragged home by the men in the family. Boy got a good beating and got on with his life, but as she was pregnant, she was put into a home. As my mother tells it, all the women in the family begged the men not to do send her there, but to no avail. The baby was born in the Nun's home (County Limerick, I think) sent away and later died - just like the poor kids in Tuam. The women in the family continued to beg to bring her home as each visit she look sicker, thinner and more scared/ brutalized. They knew she couldn't tell them anything of how she was treated or feeling for fear of the nuns. No use, the men in the family wouldn't budge and she died a year later.

Many good people who saw what was going on had no power to change it. They were frightened of the power of the Church and patriarchy in general. Ireland still has that fear, fear to speak up against a corrupt Guard or a nasty teacher.. and even when they do, the person speaking up comes under attack and suffer horribly having no protection because of the failure to have clear, transparent rules/regs in place to protect the victims in society.

A lot better today, I guess, but still a cloud of fear hangs over Ireland and a unwillingness to change. The reason why the site in Tuam is not being treated as a crime scene.

smurgen · 05-03-2017 04:50PM

kbannon wrote: »

There were cultural norms back then similar to Victorian England. Kids didn't matter on a grand level. Unmarried mothers were looked down upon and no man would want to marry one. They were a massive embarrassment.
I am in no way absolving the church from its part.
However, people knew that the residents weren't adequately looked after. They looked bad. Their clothes looked bad. It was obviouso to all. Nobody cared. The authorities didn't care either.

People now wonder how could it have happened. It happened because people didn't care. These people didn't matter.

How many of those giving out about the treatment in the likes of Tuam are doing so on their iPhone part made by poverty and child labour?

We can't criticise 800 bodies ****ed into a septic tank like rubish because we own Iphones?are you insane?

BorneTobyWilde · 05-03-2017 05:35PM

Ironic that the religion starts with a girl who falls pregnant in suspicious circumstances, that child is considered the Son of God.
How many sons of God did they throw in the septic tank.

please helpThank YOU · 05-03-2017 05:41PM

Just Watching the News RTE HEADLINES TOP OF THE NEWS HSE CONTACTED GARDAI THREE YEARS AFTER GRACE REPORT. So as I said before Ireland will never never never never learn its CORRUPTED Ireland . its Tuam in Galway all over again this was 2012 DISGUSTING

Seth Brundle · 05-03-2017 05:41PM

smurgen wrote: »

We can't criticise 800 bodies ****ed into a septic tank like rubish because we own Iphones?are you insane?

I'm quite sane and I didn't say you couldn't criticise.
I merely said that people on the whole didn't care about them which is why at the time there wasn't uproar.
In the same way that we don't care about sweat shop factories making iPhones.

Grayson · 05-03-2017 05:45PM

kbannon wrote: »

There were cultural norms back then similar to Victorian England. Kids didn't matter on a grand level. Unmarried mothers were looked down upon and no man would want to marry one. They were a massive embarrassment.
I am in no way absolving the church from its part.
However, people knew that the residents weren't adequately looked after. They looked bad. Their clothes looked bad. It was obviouso to all. Nobody cared. The authorities didn't care either.

People now wonder how could it have happened. It happened because people didn't care. These people didn't matter.

How many of those giving out about the treatment in the likes of Tuam are doing so on their iPhone part made by poverty and child labour?

You're right. The majority of people who have a problem with people throwing a baby's body into a sewer are obviously hypocrites since they own smart phones.

It's definitely not whataboutry at all.

BorneTobyWilde · 05-03-2017 05:52PM

kbannon wrote: »

I'm quite sane and I didn't say you couldn't criticise.
I merely said that people on the whole didn't care about them which is why at the time there wasn't uproar.
In the same way that we don't care about sweat shop factories making iPhones.

iPhones are made in a state of the art factory . There are thousands of employees , all with ID's who log in everyday. Labour is cheap, as it's China.

The Black Oil · 05-03-2017 05:54PM

Nothing to see here, move along.

https://twitter.com/AdrienneJoCo/status/837948981737062401

https://twitter.com/AdrienneJoCo/status/837950001162645504

Mrs OBumble · 05-03-2017 05:58PM

Daisy78 wrote: »

you have to ask why society as a whole allowed these types of situations to persist. Where were the journalists back in day to probe deeper into these institutions to find out what was going on? To a certain extent i believe that there was a large cross section of society (both the church and the laeity) who thrived on the opportunity to dominate and repress people they saw as less than them, less pious,less deserving, less human in the pretext of carrying out God's work, .

It doesn't need to be in God's name, and it hasnt changed:

Aras Attracta
Direct provision
Grace
Carrickmines (take a look at the Traveller ethnicity status thread for another disgusting read).

The question is, can we ever find a leader who can make Irish people face up to their depravity and get over it.

05-03-2017 06:00PM

smurgen wrote: »

People trafficing is,slave labour is.Perfoming medical trials without parental consent most definately is.

I suspect in the 30s, 40s and 50s there was little legislation on people trafficking. And I doubt there will be any charges brought for the matters you refer to.

CAB won't be getting involved. While the allegations are horrific, the whole "call in CAB, seize the Churches" stuff won't happen.

infogiver · 05-03-2017 06:04PM

The Black Oil wrote: »

Nothing to see here, move along.

https://twitter.com/AdrienneJoCo/status/837948981737062401

https://twitter.com/AdrienneJoCo/status/837950001162645504

Well what do you expect? Everyone in Tuam knew what was going on at the time, everyone in the country knew, most people were fine with it.
The conditions in the institutions reflected the general feeling towards "fallen" women that was prevalent at the time.
The focus just happens to be on Tuam today

"Significant" numbers of babies remains actually found

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