Louise O Neill on rape culture.

midlandsmissus · 03-03-2017 10:57AM

Wibbs wrote: »

mzungu wrote: »

True, although he did write an article a few years back titled "In a free society we must hear things we don't like"

So maybe Ian O'Doherty needs to take his own advice? :pac:

Unlikely he will. Too many of these media notice boxes descend to the hysteric, the schoolyard and downright nasty at the merest provocation. Regardless of gender. And regardless of what tweets he received, FFS have some class man. Looked like a sad sack.

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Simple question to the men on here: do you think women have traditionally, and are now, treated well in Ireland?

Yes. And yes in general that held true even in the Catholic theocracatic days. Yes there were awful abuses right down to basic ignorance but Ireland was and remains under the surface quite the matriarchal society. Indeed go back to oul Catholic Ireland and it is easy to argue it was more the women who were the craw thumpers and enforcers of that. Who ran the Magdalene Laundries? We have a real tendency post theocracy of distancing ourselves from some of the home truths, while exaggerating other aspects of it.

In my personal instance, I left Ireland, and the misogyny was one of the reasons.

I live in another country in Europe now and Im so happy. I am treated better. I look back on Ireland now and I see it suffers because it is so isolated from the rest of the world, under such a male catholic grip for so long, so many sex abuses.Thank god I dont live there anymore!

Spoken like a stereotypical ex pat TBH. I've known a few and not just from Ireland. They tend to fall broadly into two camps. Those that hold a wistful and fanciful view of the 'old country", one that never really existed but in their heads and personal experience and those that hold an increasingly negative view of the "old country", also one that never existed but in their heads and personal experience.

I'd bet the farm that there are similar emigres from your new host country and culture that fall into those above camps. When one engages with emigrants in any country and you see this. Get into a conversation in any part of the world and you can be sure the same subjects come up and a consistency of the opinions is universal. EG "all politicians are bad", "our men/women are a pain in the arse", "the past was better/worse", [insert country/culture here] is so much better. It's part and parcel of the human condition and it tells you more about the individuals worldview than the culture they find themselves in.

And if you think Ireland is "so isolated from the rest of the world" I really don't know what to say to you, because it is a patent nonsense.

I love how you feel how you can talk for me Wibbs, but thankfully the day of me letting men shout me down is long gone. You have me, LON, multiple women on the 'why i didn't report my rapist' thread, saying they were raped, multiple journalists coming forward to speak about womens issues. You can't shout it down by saying it doesnt exist.

midlandsmissus · 03-03-2017 11:00AM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Simple question to the men on here: do you think women have traditionally, and are now, treated well in Ireland?

In my personal instance, I left Ireland, and the misogyny was one of the reasons.

I live in another country in Europe now and Im so happy. I am treated better. I look back on Ireland now and I see it suffers because it is so isolated from the rest of the world, under such a male catholic grip for so long, so many sex abuses.Thank god I dont live there anymore!

Among the best in the world, (not to turn into one of those MRA bellends for a sec) if not better then they actually deserve. Fùck it, even look at most Irish literature and people around you. The whole thing/character of the controlling powerful Irish mammy.

What other European country are you in? Scandinavian countries? They're going full durka durka according to recent trends like.

With all due respect, you dont see what doesnt happen to you. I wish I had left years ago.

Flint Fredstone · 03-03-2017 11:16AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

With all due respect, you dont see what doesnt happen to you. I wish I had left years ago.

Maybe you're not seeing similar examples of what you claim happened to you where you are now...

pumpkin4life · 03-03-2017 11:18AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

With all due respect, you dont see what doesnt happen to you. I wish I had left years ago.

Statistically, probabilistic-ally speaking I'm far more likely to suffer a horrible disease, kill myself, end up in jail, get assaulted or beaten up in a fight, end up unemployed or have difficulty finding a job, end up homeless, end up on drugs, have a below average IQ, all of that fun stuff than a women of my economic class and age is.

For most distributions for most categories, men are on the extremes. Women cluster around the middle.

But some people just see the extremes going

> to the right here.

It's basic biology, society, all of that craic. No weird patriarchal boogycùnt or anything like that.

Also, what do you even know about me lol?

Wibbs · 03-03-2017 11:19AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I love how you feel how you can talk for me Wibbs, but thankfully the day of me letting men shout me down is long gone.

I wasn't "talking for you"(cue deflecting mansplaining nonsense to follow), I was merely pointing out that your experience is common and near universal. Also near universal is the honeymoon period of many the newly arrived into a new culture. We see this with men(we've seen it on Boards on the regular) going on about how [insert foreign women here] are better than Irish women and easier to get on with, blah blah. Based on holiday experiences or short stays in other places. Talk to the same men who live in such places longterm and see the difference with time.

And as "feminists" routinely show, pretty much as a given is a) they're all too prone to shouting down themselves and b) clam up, claim "oppression" and retreat to their echo chambers in the face of any debate that dares to question their philosophy.

You have me, LON, multiple women on the 'why i didn't report my rapist' thread, saying they were raped, multiple journalists coming forward to speak about womens issues. You can't shout it down by saying it doesnt exist.

Nobody said "it doesn't exist". Indeed "women's issues" stuff is hard to escape. What people have been saying, men and women, is that "rape culture" is a hysterical and attention seeking nonsense peddled by professional pundits of "feminism" and victimhood, with their acolytes cheering on from the sidelines.

This is kindergarten stuff here, but it is a mistake and an immature one with it, to assume one's personal experiences at the hands of a minority equate to the wider experience of the majority and the culture.

Wibbs · 03-03-2017 11:27AM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Statistically, probabilistic-ally speaking I'm far more likely to suffer a horrible disease, kill myself, end up in jail, get assaulted or beaten up in a fight, end up unemployed or have difficulty finding a job, end up homeless, end up on drugs, have a below average IQ, all of that fun stuff than a women of my economic class and age is.

Indeed. It is a provable fact that by the vast majority of metrics, the average western man has it worse than the average western woman. Then again facts and extremists of all stripes are rarely bedfellows, save when it is convenient.

And yes IMH modern feminism is extremist. Some may say - as I would have myself at one time - that this is only the extreme end of modern feminism, but the basic mainstream tenets of modern feminism make extreme claims that simply don't stack up, or can be dismissed entirely. And worse not better it has become, when previously quite fringe ideas like "rape culture" are now mainstream.

Don't Chute! · 03-03-2017 11:28AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Simple question to the men on here: do you think women have traditionally, and are now, treated well in Ireland?

In my personal instance, I left Ireland, and the misogyny was one of the reasons.

I live in another country in Europe now and Im so happy. I am treated better. I look back on Ireland now and I see it suffers because it is so isolated from the rest of the world, under such a male catholic grip for so long, so many sex abuses.Thank god I dont live there anymore!

There are no words to describe how stupid this post is. Have you any examples of this "suffering" you speak of? Something other than "somebody was like totally mean to me one time" bull****. I thank god you don't live here anymore too.

ivytwine · 03-03-2017 11:30AM

Funnily enough, I found Australia far more sexist than Ireland. I find Irish men in general speak to you as an equal, that wasn't my experience with Australian men.

That's the only other country I've spent significant time in so can't comment on anywhere else.

I want to add that I think Ireland doesn't treat many people well when they're outside the norm. Regardless of gender.

03-03-2017 11:32AM

Most women I know found men in most European countries to be a lot more sleazy and a lot more openly sleazy than in Ireland.

Wibbs · 03-03-2017 11:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Most women I know found men in most European countries to be a lot more sleazy and a lot more openly sleazy than in Ireland.

Depends where in Europe too B. Some are worse in this regard than others. I've found the Latin cultures like Spain, Greece and especially Italy the men tend to be far more forward and that can and does come across as sleazy to outsiders. Further East and the man/woman roles thing tends to be of a higher contrast and more old fashioned compared to Ireland. The Scandis and the Germanic bits tend to be less about this in general, with the French in the middle. The UK is pretty similar to here. Generalisations of course and like anywhere individuals vary a lot around the background culture. On rape and sexual assault stats it can be hard to draw conclusions as different countries apply different criteria. Sweden an obvious example where the net is spread far wider than say in the UK, so it looks far higher. I'd be willing to bet good money though, that Ireland, just like with serious crime statistics in general, is one of the safer places in the EU on that score.

Zulu · 03-03-2017 11:46AM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Simple question to the men on here: do you think women have traditionally, and are now, treated well in Ireland?

In my personal instance, I left Ireland, and the misogyny was one of the reasons.

Misogyny; get a grip will you. :rolleyes:

What I'm more interested to know is - why ask the question when you are not going to believe the answer?

03-03-2017 11:58AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Depends where in Europe too B. Some are worse in this regard than others. I've found the Latin cultures like Spain, Greece and especially Italy the men tend to be far more forward and that can and does come across as sleazy to outsiders. Further East and the man/woman roles thing tends to be of a higher contrast and more old fashioned compared to Ireland. The Scandis and the Germanic bits tend to be less about this in general, with the French in the middle. The UK is pretty similar to here. Generalisations of course and like anywhere individuals vary a lot around the background culture. On rape and sexual assault stats it can be hard to draw conclusions as different countries apply different criteria. Sweden an obvious example where the net is spread far wider than say in the UK, so it looks far higher. I'd be willing to bet good money though, that Ireland, just like with serious crime statistics in general, is one of the safer places in the EU on that score.

Aye Latins are meant to be the worst (haven't had to experience it myself thankfully but I know a few who were surprised in more Northern parts. Some was down to recent arrivals but not all.

midlandsmissus · 03-03-2017 12:40PM

Wibbs- purient nonsense. Its not just me and my personal experience. Time and time again we see feminists, indeed any woman that dares to have an opinion, shouted down. Lon - shouted down, the woman who said 'why I didn't report my rapist- shouted down. One would wonder why some men are so afraid of women, that they don't let them have an opinion.

Get over the fear.

midlandsmissus · 03-03-2017 12:43PM

Don't Chute! wrote: »

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Simple question to the men on here: do you think women have traditionally, and are now, treated well in Ireland?

In my personal instance, I left Ireland, and the misogyny was one of the reasons.

I live in another country in Europe now and Im so happy. I am treated better. I look back on Ireland now and I see it suffers because it is so isolated from the rest of the world, under such a male catholic grip for so long, so many sex abuses.Thank god I dont live there anymore!

There are no words to describe how stupid this post is. Have you any examples of this "suffering" you speak of? Something other than "somebody was like totally mean to me one time" bull****. I thank god you don't live here anymore too.

There are no words to describe how nonsensical your post is. Why are you so terrified of letting a woman talk?
Do you have so little self identity, that you have to not let women express there opinions, because it makes you afraid?

03-03-2017 12:59PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Wibbs- purient nonsense. Its not just me and my personal experience. Time and time again we see feminists, indeed any woman that dares to have an opinion, shouted down. Lon - shouted down, the woman who said 'why I didn't report my rapist- shouted down. One would wonder why some men are so afraid of women, that they don't let them have an opinion.

Get over the fear.

Oh my god, where to start?!!? Who's stopping anyone having an opinion. Don't have a victim complex and confidently state your case. We've had woman Presidents in this country, hardly the calling card of a misogynist empire.

I'd wager 95% of the people on the ''Why I didn't report my rapist'' were nothing but supportive and spoke eloquently on the subject. Just because they didn't agree with the label she had given your man (tbh honest, she had doubts herself) doesn't mean they were shutting her down. If anything, she shut down debate on her pages by deleting and blocking people in disagreement with her.

As for Louise and her ''Rape Culture'', allow me to absolutely shred that apart for you here with a post from the other thread.

from Omackeral

I work as a Prison Officer. Rapists in prison are seen as the lowest of the low. They are scum. Murderers are miles above them. What does that tell you? Apart from Subversive Republicans (and that's largely political), Sex Offenders are the only category of prisoner requiring their own prison. Imagine that, their own prison because even the dregs of decent society won't accept them. Rapists aren't accepted in decent society and are just as much not accpeted in indecent society.

There ya go radfems, I just dispelled your rape culture theory.

03-03-2017 01:04PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

There are no words to describe how nonsensical your post is. Why are you so terrified of letting a woman talk?

You just accuse people of being nonsensical when you don't agree with them. Is he terrified of women talking because they're;

a) So scary and intimidating, thereby undoing your portrayal of them being victims

or

b) Insignificant little gnats, in which case, why would he be scared?

There's only one person talking complete pony on these threads...

Widdershins · 03-03-2017 01:46PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Wibbs- purient nonsense. Its not just me and my personal experience. Time and time again we see feminists, indeed any woman that dares to have an opinion, shouted down. Lon - shouted down, the woman who said 'why I didn't report my rapist- shouted down. One would wonder why some men are so afraid of women, that they don't let them have an opinion.

Get over the fear.

I really think you are confusing dissenting opinions with ''shouting down''.

P.s, I'm not a man :rolleyes:

LuckyLloyd · 03-03-2017 02:00PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Wibbs- purient nonsense. Its not just me and my personal experience. Time and time again we see feminists, indeed any woman that dares to have an opinion, shouted down. Lon - shouted down, the woman who said 'why I didn't report my rapist- shouted down. One would wonder why some men are so afraid of women, that they don't let them have an opinion.

Get over the fear.

You're entitled to have an opinion. You're entitled to express that opinion. You're not entitled to have that opinion accepted without challenge.

Outlaw Pete · 03-03-2017 02:08PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Misogyny I have experienced.

Do you want me to give examples? Because I can give many.

Yes, please do.

Glenster · 03-03-2017 02:11PM

Wahhhh people with willies have it worse!

Wahhhh people without willies have it worse!

-This thread.

Lorelli! · 03-03-2017 02:13PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Simple question to the men on here: do you think women have traditionally, and are now, treated well in Ireland?!

Personally I have been treated well growing up and living in Ireland so I don't share that view. That's not to say I haven't had some bad experiences that were not justified but they were not limited to a specific gender.

Wibbs wrote: »

I wasn't "talking for you"(cue deflecting mansplaining nonsense to follow), I was merely pointing out that your experience is common and near universal. Also near universal is the honeymoon period of many the newly arrived into a new culture. We see this with men(we've seen it on Boards on the regular) going on about how [insert foreign women here] are better than Irish women and easier to get on with, blah blah. Based on holiday experiences or short stays in other places. Talk to the same men who live in such places longterm and see the difference with time. .

I've come across this a few times and seen it described as Cultural Cringe.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/cultural-cringe

FishOnABike · 03-03-2017 02:32PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Wibbs- purient nonsense. Its not just me and my personal experience. Time and time again we see feminists, indeed any woman that dares to have an opinion, shouted down. Lon - shouted down, the woman who said 'why I didn't report my rapist- shouted down. One would wonder why some men are so afraid of women, that they don't let them have an opinion.

Get over the fear.

Can you explain how Louise O Neill and Rosemary McCabe (the woman who said 'why I didn't report my rapist') were shouted down? I don't see any any evidence to support this.

Neither were prevented or obstructed in any way from expressing their opinions. If a person expresses an opinion in a public forum they have to expect that there may be dissenting opinions.

It is hypocritical in the extreme, for those so vocal about their rights to express their own opinions, to delete and block the opinions of others in the very same medium.

There is a world of a difference between shouting down and expressing a differing opinion. From what I can see LON and RMcC are far more guilty of shouting down than are their detractors.

Outlaw Pete · 03-03-2017 02:32PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

Get over the fear.

What the hell are you on about? What fear?

The women you cite are more than listened to, one was even given her own show on RTE. Their views however were quite easily shown to be illogical and without merit. Nobody is afraid of them airing their opinions, they just don't agree with them is all.

Surely if anyone is showing 'fear' it is those who avoid engaging in debates with those who have opposing viewpoints, and that is not the hallmark of the people you are having at go at here, but it is very much is the hallmark of those you claim are oft shouted down.

LON is a good example of that. Aside from the odd echo chamber discussion where she gets to control who is at the table, and also if their remarks get stricken from the record or not (they often do) she almost never engages with people who don't agree with her or her views. Same with Una, Rosemary et al.

You seem to think that people are just expressing views based on gender and not considering opinions if that person expressing them happens to be a woman. What total nonsense. Sure just look at the reaction that Ian O'Doherty is getting here after the comments he made to Una Mullally. Surely if you were right, then all the users here (who tend to be of the opinion that she's perpetually wrongheaded - I'm one of them) would think her deserving of his vitriol... but they don't.

FishOnABike · 03-03-2017 02:37PM

Glenster wrote: »

Wahhhh people with willies have it worse!

Wahhhh people without willies have it worse!

-This thread.

But only one side can willy wave about it - it's so unfair!:rolleyes:

03-03-2017 02:42PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Yes, please do.

She won't - she'll dissaper and only reappear when another related topic comes up and repeats the cycle - I saw her do this here , the RMC thread and others - something Like LON would do

midlandsmissus · 03-03-2017 02:54PM

www.dailyedge.ie/rape-culture-ireland-twitter-2809335-Jun2016

There some very enlightened posts from Irish men here on rape culture.
"Young men are very influenced by peer pressure, and don't listen to women"
"We are conditioned to distrust women, and think they are hysterical"

Zulu · 03-03-2017 02:57PM

Classic sea-gull post.

03-03-2017 03:01PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

www.dailyedge.ie/rape-culture-ireland-twitter-2809335-Jun2016

There some very enlightened posts from Irish men here on rape culture.
"Young men are very influenced by peer pressure, and don't listen to women"
"We are conditioned to distrust women, and think they are hysterical"

Care to respond directly to this post? It's not from some pseudo intellectual gender studies undergrad, it's from my own daily life.

I work as a Prison Officer. Rapists in prison are seen as the lowest of the low. They are scum. Murderers are miles above them. What does that tell you? Apart from Subversive Republicans (and that's largely political), Sex Offenders are the only category of prisoner requiring their own prison. Imagine that, their own prison because even the dregs of decent society won't accept them. Rapists aren't accepted in decent society and are just as much not accepted in indecent society.

Also, that link is about Stanford University, which isn't in Ireland. More imported bullsh*t.

03-03-2017 03:11PM

midlandsmissus wrote: »

"We are conditioned to distrust women, and think they are hysterical"

I know people on here have an issue with this phrase but I'm gonna say it. That's utterly retarded. I distrust my loving girlfriend do I? My mam, who reared a family of four on her own? My sister, who is my favourite person in the world. My teachers, who taught me how to read and write? I never did have a male teacher until I was 12. My various bosses and supervisors who bestowed trust on me to help run a company and gave me opportunities? Officials who I voted into public office?

Pull the other one midlandsmissus and stop perpetuating victim culture, because that's what exists more than anything else.

midlandsmissus · 03-03-2017 03:12PM

Omackeral as you can see I have been offline for an hour. Unless you know of a superhuman device that enables me to reply to five people at once, dont be so presumptuous.
Also, I work, and sometimes I have to go to my real life.
So if I dont reply to you (posters) get over it! Its like toddlers demanding attention. Me! Me! Me!

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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