Sexism you have personally experienced or have heard of? *READ POST 1*

Genuinely, I think as far as sexism goes in terms of aesthetics and other peoples standards of what is aesthetically pleasant, women, young women, and girls are under far, far greater pressure to adhere to an expected social standard. That's exactly why Tess Holiday started the #effyourbeautystandards hashtag!

It's also the reason why I'm not going to complain about sexism towards men who are carrying a little (or indeed a lot) more around their midriff than they should. I get young women wanting to cuddle me all the time because to them I'm just a cuddly teddy bear.

I guess there's no accounting for taste :pac:

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Hold on, we're talking about a specific, confined subset of the "aesthetics" expectations that deal exclusively with body size and shape; On the more generalist level, in terms of "how important X is", I would agree with you - in short, it's about looks for women and success for men.

But if we talk strictly about weight, there's been a bit more of acceptance of "fuller" ladies and even the promotion of some as role models in the last couple of decades, while the same isn't true at all for men, which are still fair game for "fat jokes".

Saying there's no pressure at all on men is utterly incorrect, just by looking around at adverts and posters for, say, slimming products, they're filled up with bulging biceps and sculpted sixpack as much as they are with toned feminine bottoms and narrow hourglass figures.




Uh...honestly, I'm happy for you and "whatever floats your boat", but...you don't think there's something a bit "off" in that? I'm not sure I'd be happy with that happening to myself; Or better, I basically wouldn't mind as I'd, ehrm, getting "company", but come think of it it's not exactly flattering.

To each their own, absolutely, but I can't really escape thinking that were the roles reversed, with a guy saying he liked an overweight woman because she was a "motherly cow", things wouldn't go well at all

A cuddly teddy bear is not an insult but calling someone a cow is.

All the hallmarks of a parody account.

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Hold on, we're talking about a specific, confined subset of the "aesthetics" expectations that deal exclusively with body size and shape; On the more generalist level, in terms of "how important X is", I would agree with you - in short, it's about looks for women and success for men.

But if we talk strictly about weight, there's been a bit more of acceptance of "fuller" ladies and even the promotion of some as role models in the last couple of decades, while the same isn't true at all for men, which are still fair game for "fat jokes".

OK, if we were to restrict ourselves simply to talking about weight, then your argument still doesn't hold up to scrutiny, not when you realise that you're basically arguing against yourself. You're acknowledging that it's only in the last few decades that there has been a bit more of an acceptance of fuller ladies and even the promotion of some as role models, which isn't at all true for men, but, here's the kicker - there was always an acceptance of men were overweight, and it's only in the last few decades that the health and beauty industry has begun to capitalise on the market for making men feel just as shítty and insecure about themselves as they've made women feel for centuries, millennia even.

Both genders were always fair game for fat jokes btw, I can think of plenty of "Yo momma so fat" jokes, can't think of a single "Yo daddy so fat" joke, and to take that little thought experiment further - two icons of the 20th century, one male and one female, how were they perceived? Who comes to your mind straight away?

For me, it's Marilyn Monroe, and Santa Claus.

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Saying there's no pressure at all on men is utterly incorrect, just by looking around at adverts and posters for, say, slimming products, they're filled up with bulging biceps and sculpted sixpack as much as they are with toned feminine bottoms and narrow hourglass figures.

I didn't say there was no pressure on men at all, I said women, young women, and girls, are under far, far greater pressure to adhere to an expected social standard. I think with regard to what you're seeing in terms of adverts and posters for slimming products, you're seeing what you want to see. There are by far and away more slimming products and imagery in the media directed at women than men. I can't walk by a news-stand without reading what female celebrity has been yo-yo dieting this week, what female celebrity has a new diet or exercise plan out this week, Hell, while her sister was "breaking the internet" with her gluteus ginormous, Khloe Kardashian now has a series on E! called "Revenge Body", and their sister Kylie, well, you can't go near social media without seeing pictures of her pouting puss and photoshopped posturing.

You won't see anywhere near the same degree of pressure or exposure directed at men.

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Uh...honestly, I'm happy for you and "whatever floats your boat", but...you don't think there's something a bit "off" in that? I'm not sure I'd be happy with that happening to myself; Or better, I basically wouldn't mind as I'd, ehrm, getting "company", but come think of it it's not exactly flattering.

Seems you can't make up your mind, but that wasn't really my point. My point was merely demonstrating that not only is it acceptable for a man to carry more weight than is healthy for him, it's actually what makes them MORE attractive to some women, quite a few women as it happens. How I feel about them being attracted to me as I said, well, there's no accounting for taste.

H3llR4iser wrote: »

To each their own, absolutely, but I can't really escape thinking that were the roles reversed, with a guy saying he liked an overweight woman because she was a "motherly cow", things wouldn't go well at all

No, they wouldn't because as PucaMama explained, that's not really a like for like comparison. I think you really need to stop with the "if the roles were reversed" stuff and just deal with reality. There's a hell of a lot more to people than just whether they're fat or not, and I read your earlier account of the difference in how you were treated when you lost weight, and I would say that was more down to the shift other people could see in your attitude and how you carried yourself with confidence after you lost the weight, than before, when you'd fcukall. Is it any wonder more women didn't say "Ew!", because it wasn't your weight was unattractive, it was your lack of self-confidence. People can smell that kinda thing a mile off, they aren't stupid.

H3llR4iser wrote: »

Realized that afterwards, couldn't really think of any "Teddy bear equivalent" analogy; Anyway replace "cow" with any cutesy, massive animal, stuffed or real, you like - it'd still be frowned upon, and rightly so.

Ohh I don't know, I get away with some fair eyebrow raisers myself, which I couldn't possibly repeat on a family friendly website :pac: Yes it would be frowned upon here, because it would be completely out of context, but depending upon your audience, being brutally honest with people can have the most bizarre consequences! :pac:

H3llR4iser wrote: »

The "Teddy bear" analogy was one that a few people used on me as well when I was obese; At the time, I didn't mind it - I almost cherished it, to be honest.

It's just been recently, when I witnessed somebody talking in similar terms about a third person that it became apparent to me how even if there was no ill intent in it, the individual using such analogy was still subconsciously devaluing the guy in question as a man due to his appearance. Can be spun many ways and times, but the substance remains.

Ehh, no. The substance that you want to remain, remains. I understand the intent of it, most people actually do, and they don't see it as a devaluation of men at all. I just don't care to take it as a compliment because I don't take compliments very well anyway, I'm an awful cynic!

ligerdub wrote: »

It seems to me that expectations of womens bodies are generally something they can do something about, mostly weight. On the contrary men are fair game for things they can do little about I.e. height, size of genitals.

Have you ever lost weight with autoimmune thyroid problems?

But women's weight has always been to go to thing for men lashing out at women who mention height/size. They don't care if it's not affecting that particular woman so long as it's annoying some woman.

PucaMama wrote: »

Have you ever lost weight with autoimmune thyroid problems?

But women's weight has always been to go to thing for men lashing out at women who mention height/size. They don't care if it's not affecting that particular woman so long as it's annoying some woman.

Interesting that you describe it as women mentioning but men lashing out.

Icemancometh wrote: »

Interesting that you describe it as women mentioning but men lashing out.

To say "I don't like men who are to short/too tall" is not lashing out. Neither is saying "I don't like fat women". It's personal preference.

However having a go at someone and calling names and giving out about either is lashing out.

But you know this already. Don't see why you need it explained.

ligerdub wrote: »

It seems to me that expectations of womens bodies are generally something they can do something about, mostly weight. On the contrary men are fair game for things they can do little about I.e. height, size of genitals.

Baldness too, and the ability to grow a decent beard. Some guys just can't.

Icemancometh wrote: »

But you said women mention preferences whereas men lash out. Seems like a double standard and I'm glad you cleared it up

No I didn't read it again

PucaMama wrote: »

But women's weight has always been to go to thing for men lashing out at women who mention height/size

the vertically challenged do be terrible angry alright, short man syndrome I'm sure you'd term it. There's only a few groups you can mock in public with abandon today and not get some social media witch-hunt of the righteous on your tail. Women are off limits (fat and ugly or no), but its always open season on male "midgets" and "ginger-mingers" etc.
The remaining "safe" male target groups serve a useful purpose for both men and women because people would go mad without someone that they could mock without fear of being pulled up on it.

fly_agaric wrote: »

the vertically challenged do be terrible angry alright, short man syndrome I'm sure you'd term it. There's only a few groups you can mock in public with abandon today and not get some social media witch-hunt of the righteous on your tail. Women are off limits (fat and ugly or no), but its always open season on male "midgets" and "ginger-mingers" etc.
The remaining "safe" male target groups serve a useful purpose for both men and women because people would go mad without someone that they could mock without fear of being pulled up on it.

You're absolutely right. An example I'm thinking of in that regard is as follows, and I think of a few people I know who seem to share behavioural traits in this regard.

These people are hellbent on sharing their social causes, hashtags, and generally being keen on showing everyone they are standing for the right things. Now, what they also seem to have done is to say "Could you imagine what people would think of us when he's meeting someone like Barack Obama? We'd be a laughing stock" - the man I refer to is Michael D Higgins.

Now let us first consider what they are saying there. They are suggesting that we should be ashamed of our head of state, a man who is eloquent, even tempered, dignified, but diminutive, when meeting somebody who liberally bombs civilians of other nations.........how embarrassing! I wonder what these people would think if Higgins were an actual dwarf! They'd probably be all up in arms about anybody criticising him for his height!

ligerdub wrote: »

Michael D

I don't remember reading anything about people being embarrassed about him but yes, he was on my mind as an occasional subject of "jokes" online about his height.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/squee/

I do think some need an object to mock (an unsavoury part of human nature?). PC (or progress if you want to put it that way) has put a lot of targets off limits for most people. A good thing, but it has resulted in some double standards...or perhaps I've no sense of humour.

pucamama wrote:

I'm short so why would I mock a man for being the same kinda height as me? It wouldn't make sense

Sorry my reply was a bit sarcastic. I'm sure you would not mock someone about their height (to their face!).
As others posted, height is more of a thing to get under mens' skins about; more equivalent to insulting a woman by passing remarks about her looks or weight I think.

ahnowbrowncow wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/0306/857604-gender-pay-gaps/

Irish women in UK earn 17.5% than Irish and British male counterparts.

"But this is largely due to generational factors as they are more likely to be older, working full-time or in senior or managerial roles," Sam Smethers, chief executive of the Fawcett Society, said in a statement.

It's only gender inequality when males earn more.

Interestingly it gives the factors as to why they earn more. Whereas they leave the factors out when the mention men earning more. Not just in that articles but generally.