The urgent need to reduce the cost of labour in Ireland.

Owryan · 26-02-2017 04:13PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I`ll stop you there. One must be patient. Have you ever heard of the marshmallow test? Stamping the foot and demanding instant gratification is understandable in two year olds. Grown ups ought to be mature enough to make better decisions.

But but but you want us to take a pay cut now, then wait till prices drop to make, i dunno, buying food affordable?

You're the one demanding we punish people because they may have bought an expensive house

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 04:27PM

Jawgap wrote: »

......and if course you have links and some kind of objective evidence to back this up?

Yes. It was actually a NAMA scheme.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nama-in-plan-to-kickstart-property-market-26755801.html

Owryan · 26-02-2017 04:29PM

Think i have it worked out. Some people will take 50% pay cuts, while others such as doctors, nurses, Gardai, those pesky workers who work to better society will work for free. Some lucky people, including the op will get to keep their high wages.

To help people buy a house we will simply evict other home owners.

Because some of us will be on low wages prices will fall, eventually. Those who don't starve to death while waiting will get to benefit from wage rises and low prices

And there is more. Because we are now a low cost economy we will become a major producer of goods, so long as we don't need to import oil, gas, steel or other resources.............

But with less money/income there will be less tax to go into the public coffers. Foreign investors will likely be attracted by the low pay but might be scared away by a half starved workforce.

So how will the government pay for the public services, oh wait, sure they will be working for free or with voluntary agencies that rely on donations.

When the hyperinflation, recession, economic disaster, Zombie apocalypse hits, due any year now apparently, we will be grand

Have to admit, I'm not seeing any flaws, wonder why enda hasn't copped onto this yet

Donal55 · 26-02-2017 04:33PM

Owryan wrote: »

Think i have it worked out. Some people will take 50% pay cuts, while others such as doctors, nurses, Gardai, those pesky workers who work to better society will work for free. Some lucky people, including the op will get to keep their high wages.

To help people buy a house we will simply evict other home owners.

Because some of us will be on low wages prices will fall, eventually. Those who don't starve to death while waiting will get to benefit from wage rises and low prices

And there is more. Because we are now a low cost economy we will become a major producer of goods, so long as we don't need to import oil, gas, steel or other resources.............

But with less money/income there will be less tax to go into the public coffers. Foreign investors will likely be attracted by the low pay but might be scared away by a half starved workforce.

So how will the government pay for the public services, oh wait, sure they will be working for free or with voluntary agencies that rely on donations.

When the hyperinflation, recession, economic disaster, Zombie apocalypse hits, due any year now apparently, we will be grand

Have to admit, I'm not seeing any flaws, wonder why enda hasn't copped onto this yet

That's the OP version . It does differ slightly from one of the tenets of economics however:
Rational behaviour is a key assumption used in the study of economics and the choices that people make in pursuit of satisfaction. It builds on the basic premise that people, given the choice, would rather have more than less, that they would rather be better off than worse off.

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 04:36PM

Owryan wrote: »

But but but you want us to take a pay cut now, then wait till prices drop to make, i dunno, buying food affordable?

You're the one demanding we punish people because they may have bought an expensive house

That would be better than what is happening now. Punishing people who did not buy an expensive house.

If things become expensive, people will just have to keep a stiff upper lip. They could cut out the caviar and try some pigs head for a while. It would be good for them.

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 04:36PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Yes. It was actually a NAMA scheme.
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/nama-in-plan-to-kickstart-property-market-26755801.html

......except you said it was the government........

realitykeeper wrote: »

You asked how the government re-inflated property prices. Here`s how:

Before the housing crash bottomed out, the government put tranches of property on the market with a guarantee to compensate buyers if the properties fell in value by more that 20%.......

.....so where's the evidence the government directed or influenced NAMA in their commercial decision in this regard?

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 04:41PM

Owryan wrote: »

Think i have it worked out. Some people will take 50% pay cuts, while others such as doctors, nurses, Gardai, those pesky workers who work to better society will work for free. Some lucky people, including the op will get to keep their high wages.

To help people buy a house we will simply evict other home owners.

Because some of us will be on low wages prices will fall, eventually. Those who don't starve to death while waiting will get to benefit from wage rises and low prices

And there is more. Because we are now a low cost economy we will become a major producer of goods, so long as we don't need to import oil, gas, steel or other resources.............

But with less money/income there will be less tax to go into the public coffers. Foreign investors will likely be attracted by the low pay but might be scared away by a half starved workforce.

So how will the government pay for the public services, oh wait, sure they will be working for free or with voluntary agencies that rely on donations.

When the hyperinflation, recession, economic disaster, Zombie apocalypse hits, due any year now apparently, we will be grand

Have to admit, I'm not seeing any flaws, wonder why enda hasn't copped onto this yet

In addition to the above, I presume we'll also be banning people from leaving the country for fear anyone with half a brain cell will up and leave to work in another country?

In fact, add in a secretive nuclear weapons programme and once we have a leader with a penchant for political assassination using nerve agents and we'll have a great little country

weisses · 26-02-2017 04:44PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Lets say the worker cleaning the toilet gets the minimum wage. Meanwhile in Kenya another worker is doing exactly the same work at 1% of the cost. This sort of thing makes Ireland less competitive.

Wait what .............................. I mean .......huh ... Seriously is this economics ?

Donal55 · 26-02-2017 04:45PM

weisses wrote: »

Wait what .............................. I mean .......huh ... Seriously is this economics ?

The invisible hand......

......or mop.

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 04:47PM

weisses wrote: »

Wait what .............................. I mean .......huh ... Seriously is this economics ?

Nope......it's "reality"

El_Duderino 09 · 26-02-2017 05:03PM

realitykeeper wrote:

If things become expensive, people will just have to keep a stiff upper lip. They could cut out the caviar and try some pigs head for a while. It would be good for them.

The people on minimum wage and factory workers need to reduce their caviar consumption? This is a very strange concept.

This thread is the result of the OP asking 'what would benefit me? Well if everyone else took a pay cut, then eventually prices would drop and even if my pay reduces a little, I'd be relatively richer. I need to tell people about this great idea, I'll start a thread on boards'.

Timberrrrrrrr · 26-02-2017 05:09PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The people on minimum wage and factory workers need to reduce their caviar consumption? This is a very strange concept.

This thread is the result of the OP asking 'what would benefit me? Well if everyone else took a pay cut, then eventually prices would drop and even if my pay reduces a little, I'd be relatively richer. I need to tell people about this great idea, I'll start a thread on boards'.

Anyone with even a passing familiarity with ops past posting/threads will know he has a very poor grasp on world economics, he has been predicting a depression/end of capitalism for quite a few years now but he's "positive" it will definitely maybe could probably happen sometime this year.

El_Duderino 09 · 26-02-2017 05:16PM

realitykeeper wrote:

Lets say the worker cleaning the toilet gets the minimum wage. Meanwhile in Kenya another worker is doing exactly the same work at 1% of the cost. This sort of thing makes Ireland less competitive. But I am really talking about factory floor productive jobs. Again, Ireland cannot compete because of the minimum wage.

Ah that could be said of any group of workers, in any sector of any industry in any county. Why only focus on minimum wage? Why not your own industry?

realitykeeper wrote:

If the Irish did work low paid jobs ourselves, immigrants would be fewer in number but much more qualified which is what we want. Instead the best of the Irish are leaving and the least qualified of the immigrants are coming.

You want people with degrees and things working for a fiver an hour on factory floors, to help the economy. Help the economy for who?

I'm assuming your job would be immune to falling below the minimum wage - no need to ask, of course your wage would be safe. This thread wouldn't exist if you thought your wage could colapse.

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 06:11PM

Jawgap wrote: »

......except you said it was the government........

.....so where's the evidence the government directed or influenced NAMA in their commercial decision in this regard?

NAMA was the governments creation. If you build a Frankenstein (with taxpayers money) you have to take responsibility for what it does.

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 06:13PM

Jawgap wrote: »

In addition to the above, I presume we'll also be banning people from leaving the country for fear anyone with half a brain cell will up and leave to work in another country?

In fact, add in a secretive nuclear weapons programme and once we have a leader with a penchant for political assassination using nerve agents and we'll have a great little country

You have summed up my concerns very nicely.

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 06:17PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

NAMA was the governments creation. If you build a Frankenstein (with taxpayers money) you have to take responsibility for what it does.

Actually, Frankenstein was the doctor, his creation had no name. It's something that escapes most people.

.....and given NAMA was created by an Act of the Oireacthtas, it's hardly a government creation is it? It's a creation of the legislature, no?

Or do you think that the government have sabotaged the will of the legislature which included the following provision in the Act that guaranteed their independence......

..NAMA is independent in the performance of its functions under this Act.

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 06:20PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

The people on minimum wage and factory workers need to reduce their caviar consumption? This is a very strange concept.

This thread is the result of the OP asking 'what would benefit me? Well if everyone else took a pay cut, then eventually prices would drop and even if my pay reduces a little, I'd be relatively richer. I need to tell people about this great idea, I'll start a thread on boards'.

Not at all. I think of the general good. You might be just thinking about yourself. If however, you combine a little foresight with concern for other people, you will see where the country is going and why low pay must happen urgently.

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 06:21PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

You have summed up my concerns very nicely.

......and who do you suppose is going to stop people leaving the country?

The now poorly paid public servants......or will we be buying in security contractors from abroad, presumably paying through the nose for the privilege too?

PopePalpatine · 26-02-2017 06:23PM

"Concern for other people" he says, totally unaware of how that contradicts calling for their wages to be slashed below subsistence levels.

Or is this some mad Catholic dogma, like Mother Teresa revelling in the pain of the diseased because it brings them closer to God?

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 06:24PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Not at all. I think of the general good. You might be just thinking about yourself. If however, you combine a little foresight with concern for other people, you will see where the country is going and why low pay must happen urgently.

The country is far from perfect, but it seems to be going just fine......increasing employment, peace in the North, increasing life expectancy......and for once even the rugby and football teams are doing well at the same time.

Ah, you'll have your naysayers, but to quote Brian Friel, some people are not happy unless they're miserable

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 06:26PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ah that could be said of any group of workers, in any sector of any industry in any county. Why only focus on minimum wage? Why not your own industry?

You want people with degrees and things working for a fiver an hour on factory floors, to help the economy. Help the economy for who?

I'm assuming your job would be immune to falling below the minimum wage - no need to ask, of course your wage would be safe. This thread wouldn't exist if you thought your wage could colapse.

You must stop this obsession with me. I am only thinking of the common good. As for suitably qualified migrants, they can always go where their skills are in demand, be that Ireland or anywhere else.

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 06:27PM

Insofar as this thread has anything to do with politics, should it not really be in the Cafe?

It really takes a surreal turn using the existence of waste smuggling to justify subsistence wages and the introduction of totalitarian rule and a command economy.......

......I'm not saying it escalated quickly, but it escalated quickly

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 06:36PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Actually, Frankenstein was the doctor, his creation had no name. It's something that escapes most people.

.....and given NAMA was created by an Act of the Oireacthtas, it's hardly a government creation is it? It's a creation of the legislature, no?

Or do you think that the government have sabotaged the will of the legislature which included the following provision in the Act that guaranteed their independence......

..NAMA is independent in the performance of its functions under this Act.

Frankenstein`s monster was called "Frankenstein`s monster" but you are correct, I should have said Frankenstein`s monster.

The Oireachtas or parliament passed the act which like any other act, was voted through by the majority of TDs who occupied the government side of the house.

Owryan · 26-02-2017 06:39PM

Jawgap wrote: »

The country is far from perfect, but it seems to be going just fine......increasing employment, peace in the North, increasing life expectancy......and for once even the rugby and football teams are doing well at the same time.

Ah, you'll have your naysayers, but to quote Brian Friel, some people are not happy unless they're miserable

Fake news!!!!!!!!!!! Well to doomsayers like (alt)realitykeeper

con___manx1 · 26-02-2017 06:48PM

I worked in a recycling centre when I was in college. The recycable material was sold on so the recycling centres pay for them selves really. Maybe the cost of waste removal should be increased substantiolly so people are forced to use these facility's that are free. Any town without a free recycling facility should be provided with one by the government.

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 06:48PM

Jawgap wrote: »

The country is far from perfect, but it seems to be going just fine......increasing employment, peace in the North, increasing life expectancy......and for once even the rugby and football teams are doing well at the same time.

Ah, you'll have your naysayers, but to quote Brian Friel, some people are not happy unless they're miserable

Employment does tend to increase in a bubble economy. Most of those trickle down jobs are not great though. There is nothing sustainable about the Irish economy. An economy must be allowed to grow organically from it`s roots.

QE money, bailouts, etc have set the country up for disaster. I apologize in advance for failing to convince you.

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 06:49PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Frankenstein`s monster was called "Frankenstein`s monster" but you are correct, I should have said Frankenstein`s monster.

The Oireachtas or parliament passed the act which like any other act, was voted through by the majority of TDs who occupied the government side of the house.

Yes, that doesn't make it a government creation, does it? Simply because the parties of government voted it through?

And even if it does, it's pretty clear they are independent of the government so do you have any evidence, as per your original suggestion, that the government placed the property on the market, do you have any evidence, or is it just your opinion?

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 06:51PM

con___manx1 wrote: »

Any town without a free recycling facility should be provided with one by the government.

In a low wage environment, there would be no need for the government to provide it. The private sector would do everything.

Jawgap · 26-02-2017 06:53PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

Employment does tend to increase in a bubble economy. Most of those trickle down jobs are not great though. There is nothing sustainable about the Irish economy. An economy must be allowed to grow organically from it`s roots.

QE money, bailouts, etc have set the country up for disaster. I apologize in advance for failing to convince you.

What evidence is there that we're in a "bubble economy" - I agree there's evidence of a bubble in some asset classes, but a bubble economy?

realitykeeper · 26-02-2017 06:57PM

Jawgap wrote: »

Yes, that doesn't make it a government creation, does it? Simply because the parties of government voted it through?

And even if it does, it's pretty clear they are independent of the government so do you have any evidence, as per your original suggestion, that the government placed the property on the market, do you have any evidence, or is it just your opinion?

Most of the opposition either abstained or opposed it. NAMA was a government creation. If one of googles autonomous cars is involved in an accident, google cannot say "Oh, it was autonomous, nothing to do with us." Gotta take responsibility mate.

The urgent need to reduce the cost of labour in Ireland.

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