The urgent need to reduce the cost of labour in Ireland.

realitykeeper · 25-02-2017 08:10AM #1

I read recently that 7 containers of sorted waste were returned to Ireland from the Netherlands because the waste was contaminated i.e. not sorted properly.

Perhaps it is time to look at how waste could be better processed in Ireland. The options of landfill and export to foreign incinerators is the current method because recycling and processing are too expensive.

The reason these environmentally desirable alternatives are too expensive is because to do it properly would require either expensive equipment or cheap labour. The expensive equipment option would require a long term investment and the chances of making a profit are extremely slim because low level manufacturing (everyday stuff, buckets & spades) is not really viable in this country because we do not have cheap labour.

While the government has reduced unemployment in recent years, what matters is the bottom line, i.e. jobs that result in money coming into the country. Low level manufacturing would do that and reduce money flowing out of the country. This is one reason why it would be better to scrap the minimum wage and reduce the dole and state salaries substantially.

One final point, the country is still running a deficit 9 years after the crisis of 2008. For all the jobs that were created, the government cannot even balance the books. What if a recession hits again this year? More to the point, what could the EU do to help when interest rates are already at zero? Could the euro remain credible if it were subjected to even more QE?

This country needs to become a low wage economy urgently. If that means mass evictions of mortgage defaulters, then at least other people will get to move in. It is far better to preempt a crisis than to wait for the crisis to force your hand.

Apart from recycling and basic goods manufacturing, what other areas of endevour could Ireland be missing out on because of the high labour costs in this country?

25-02-2017 08:17AM

Urgent need to reduce the cost of living in Ireland

Fixed that for you

Mongfinder General · 25-02-2017 08:50AM

The State had almost total control of waste disposal until it divested the service about 10-15 years ago. The government of the time thought that there was enough waste out there to create competition and create a private market.

Well it turns out that some members of the public don't really like paying for waste collection so they got innovative. Dumping the rubbish any which way they can. Burn it, dump it in a ditch,neighbors bin, dumpster at work etc. The result? There is nowhere near the amount of revenue in waste collection as originally perceived, hence the pay by weight move last year.

We should have invested in an incinerator. We still should.

As for reducing wages, dole state salaries etc what planet is the op on? It'll be a nice little kick in the stones for the op when he/she realizes that the business they're involved in has 40% less custom because its clients have had their salaries cut due to the deflationary effects of the cuts.

The J Stands for Jay · 25-02-2017 08:50AM

So, are we going to import a load of raw materials to make stuff from?

nhunter100 · 25-02-2017 08:52AM

Mongfinder General wrote:

We should have invested in an incinerator. We still should.

Pool beg.

stampydmonkey · 25-02-2017 08:54AM

nhunter100 wrote: »

Pool beg.

Haha ....fact

Mongfinder General · 25-02-2017 08:58AM

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Haha ....fact

I'd forgotten all about that saga!

realitykeeper · 25-02-2017 09:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Urgent need to reduce the cost of living in Ireland

Fixed that for you

In that chicken & egg scenario, cost of labour must fall first.

25-02-2017 09:50AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

In that chicken & egg scenario, cost of labour must fall first.

The chicken and egg scenario clearly has a definitive answer in whatever rhetorical plane you're operating on.

Where I'm from, the entire point of the chicken egg scenario is rather the opposite.

realitykeeper · 25-02-2017 09:51AM

McGaggs wrote: »

So, are we going to import a load of raw materials to make stuff from?

Things are possible when labour costs are low.

amcalester · 25-02-2017 09:59AM

Why don't you take the lead OP, take a 50% pay cut starting Monday.

No? Didn't think so.

Wanderer78 · 25-02-2017 10:04AM

Very disturbing view on things op, the problem with waste isn't really with the end user but indeed with the very beginning of our material and product creation systems. The 'polluter pays' principle shows that our politicians arent thinking holistically about our waste issues, even though waste is everybody's problem, very little emphasis is being made of these issues at the very beginning of the process, I.e. material and product creation manufacturers. This has lead me to create the idea of the 'creator pays' principle, this is whereby the creators of our materials and products also 'pay' their fair share along with the 'polluter', in order to deal with these issues.

The main problem with this approach is that we're stuck with a God awful economic system that has the potential to collapse our socioeconomic and environmental systems, and we have the audacity to call it the (not so) 'free' market, on another note, who exactly is this market 'free' for, as it isn't exactly for 'polluters', maybe we need to look at the other end, I.e. the very beginning of the process!

Imposing 'responsibility' on the creators would be seen as 'interfering' with the market, really! I see it as trying to be proactive in dealing with our waste issues and trying to preserve our planet for future generations. It really is time for us to ditch this whole free market crap.

Oh you can ditch this idea of 'balancing the books', what a load of crap. It truly is fine for governments to run deficits, the world will not implode, we really need to ditch econ 101!

PCX · 25-02-2017 10:11AM

What I'm not sure of is what would be the end goal you are trying to achieve in reducing wages etc.

Is it to make it easier for foreign companies to come here and make larger profits while not having to pass any benefits on to the 'natives'?

In the system you are advocating the rich will get richer while the vast majority of the population will have much reduced standards of living.

I don't want to live in a country like that but if you do there are plenty of third world countries that operate like that you can move to.

ancapailldorcha · 25-02-2017 10:18AM

stampydmonkey wrote: »

Haha ....fact

No more of this crap please.

Phoebas · 25-02-2017 10:21AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I read recently that 7 containers of sorted waste were returned to Ireland from the Netherlands because the waste was contaminated i.e. not sorted properly.

[...]

This country needs to become a low wage economy urgently.

So we can compete with the Netherlands?
If they are doing waste recycling for us, the its probably because they've invested in technology to do it, not because they are paying low wages.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-02-2017 10:21AM

realitykeeper wrote:

cost of labour must fall first.

When you say 'labour' and social welfare, it brings to mind physical trades which which aren't exactly highly paid to begin with.

Are you proposing reducing all wages or just the wages of the already lowly paid?

Instead big starting by reducing wages of people on the breadline, how about we start by reducing the wages of those who can afford it?

Richard Hillman · 25-02-2017 10:26AM

The PRSI contribution and red tape around employment is ridiculously over the top. It's not necessarily wages, it's all the crap that goes around employing somebody that kills companies. It's costly, it's time consuming, it's beurocratic nonsense.

bee06 · 25-02-2017 10:27AM

Phoebas wrote: »

So we can compete with the Netherlands?
If they are doing waste recycling for us, the its probably because they've invested in technology to do it, not because they are paying low wages.

What the OP failed to mention was the waste was going to China, just stopped in Rotterdam for that check. The expert speaking in the segment said China have the most efficient paper mill etc in the world that why we use them.

Jawgap · 25-02-2017 11:21AM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I read recently that 7 containers of sorted waste were returned to Ireland from the Netherlands because the waste was contaminated i.e. not sorted properly.

Perhaps it is time to look at how waste could be better processed in Ireland. The options of landfill and export to foreign incinerators is the current method because recycling and processing are too expensive.

The reason these environmentally desirable alternatives are too expensive is because to do it properly would require either expensive equipment or cheap labour. The expensive equipment option would require a long term investment and the chances of making a profit are extremely slim because low level manufacturing (everyday stuff, buckets & spades) is not really viable in this country because we do not have cheap labour.

While the government has reduced unemployment in recent years, what matters is the bottom line, i.e. jobs that result in money coming into the country. Low level manufacturing would do that and reduce money flowing out of the country. This is one reason why it would be better to scrap the minimum wage and reduce the dole and state salaries substantially.

One final point, the country is still running a deficit 9 years after the crisis of 2008. For all the jobs that were created, the government cannot even balance the books. What if a recession hits again this year? More to the point, what could the EU do to help when interest rates are already at zero? Could the euro remain credible if it were subjected to even more QE?

This country needs to become a low wage economy urgently. If that means mass evictions of mortgage defaulters, then at least other people will get to move in. It is far better to preempt a crisis than to wait for the crisis to force your hand.

Apart from recycling and basic goods manufacturing, what other areas of endevour could Ireland be missing out on because of the high labour costs in this country?

Most if not all of the sorting stations are automated.

The reason these containers made it to Rotterdam is not because of a failure of the technology it was because whoever shipped them also went to significant lengths to evade the checks carried out at national level (organised through the Nation Trans-Frontier Shipments Office) - and for obvious enough reasons as they didn't sort it properly, and the availability/unavailability of cheap labour and/or technology to facilitate effective sorting won't make a blind bit of difference to someone intent on doing an end run around the checks to make a quick buck.

We can't process waste in Ireland to recycle it because we don't have enough - it is an industry/activity that requires serious scale to be profitable, which means serious amounts of waste - which means we either consume mega-amounts of resources to generate the waste or we import it from elsewhere, neither of those ideas are particularly sound.

.....kudos though for managing to link waste smuggling to QE!

EDIT: btw, it was 160 containers, not 7 - 50 odd were allowed to remain in the Netherlands for processing their and the rest were returned because of contamination with organic matter.

Samaris · 25-02-2017 12:53PM

Not really seeing how OP got from seven (or 160) cans of unsorted waste to "reduce minimum wage".

But yeah, you can reduce minimum wage, but its buying power has to remain good. Therefore, the cost of living needs to drop. Otherwise you might as well do what someone above suggested, offer to take a 50% wage cut and see how viable a solution it is.

Donal55 · 25-02-2017 12:59PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

In that chicken & egg scenario, cost of labour must fall first.

Didn't the cost of Labour just fall off a cliff between 2008 and 2013?

Jawgap · 25-02-2017 01:25PM

Donal55 wrote: »

Didn't the cost of Labour just fall off a cliff between 2008 and 2013?

That's the reality.....it'll fall off another cliff when QE causes the world to end too

Wanderer78 · 25-02-2017 01:30PM

Jawgap wrote: »

That's the reality.....it'll fall off another cliff when QE causes the world to end too

what caused the drop off at the end of the graph?

Jawgap · 25-02-2017 01:36PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

what caused the drop off at the end of the graph?

I don't know - I'd say there's a lag in the data and that last bar includes the wages of casual staff taken on for Christmas???

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

25-02-2017 01:38PM

The cost of living needs to come down first and a quick way to do that would be to return the VAT rate to its 2011 rate of 21%. It would only be a 2 percent decrease I know, but it would be 2% on practically everything you buy.

Water John · 25-02-2017 01:44PM

Is the OP looking for a job as a sorter at one of the recycling stations?
Min wage, zero hours contract. Gloves supplied, smell free.

El_Duderino 09 · 25-02-2017 01:53PM

Water John wrote:

Is the OP looking for a job as a sorter at one of the recycling stations? Min wage, zero hours contract. Gloves supplied, smell free.

I doubt it. It smacks of 'other people should accept lower pay'. I'll be surprised if 'other people' aren't poorer people.

Idbatterim · 25-02-2017 01:56PM

Vat should be reduced, but two things, it doesnt necessarily mean it will be passed on to customers, secondly, what draws more headlines and votes? Vat rate cut or income tax rate reduced? Id also say that cutting the damaging marginal rate is a bigger priority...

I think the Social Democrats and Renua are two who raise the issue the cost of living. FG give you a few euro in welfare or usc cut is a joke, compared to the cost of living increases, which it would cost nothing, to do something about...

Mr.Micro · 25-02-2017 01:57PM

realitykeeper wrote: »

I read recently that 7 containers of sorted waste were returned to Ireland from the Netherlands because the waste was contaminated i.e. not sorted properly.

Perhaps it is time to look at how waste could be better processed in Ireland. The options of landfill and export to foreign incinerators is the current method because recycling and processing are too expensive.

The reason these environmentally desirable alternatives are too expensive is because to do it properly would require either expensive equipment or cheap labour. The expensive equipment option would require a long term investment and the chances of making a profit are extremely slim because low level manufacturing (everyday stuff, buckets & spades) is not really viable in this country because we do not have cheap labour.

While the government has reduced unemployment in recent years, what matters is the bottom line, i.e. jobs that result in money coming into the country. Low level manufacturing would do that and reduce money flowing out of the country. This is one reason why it would be better to scrap the minimum wage and reduce the dole and state salaries substantially.

One final point, the country is still running a deficit 9 years after the crisis of 2008. For all the jobs that were created, the government cannot even balance the books. What if a recession hits again this year? More to the point, what could the EU do to help when interest rates are already at zero? Could the euro remain credible if it were subjected to even more QE?

This country needs to become a low wage economy urgently. If that means mass evictions of mortgage defaulters, then at least other people will get to move in. It is far better to preempt a crisis than to wait for the crisis to force your hand.

Apart from recycling and basic goods manufacturing, what other areas of endevour could Ireland be missing out on because of the high labour costs in this country?

I think I read that people had made the time and effort to stuff cereal boxes full of waste, then put them in their recycle bins. How do you beat that. What sort of mentality is that? Disgusting

Water John · 25-02-2017 02:01PM

You are correct Mcro, but what has it got to do with the cost of labour, as OP maintains?

Mr.Micro · 25-02-2017 02:23PM

Water John wrote: »

You are correct Mcro, but what has it got to do with the cost of labour, as OP maintains?

My apologies, nothing, other than these people took the time and effort to stuff the boxes, effectively ruining the whole recycle effort and overall costs of the scheme. The companies then have to make up these extra costs and perhaps could push it on their employees to take less wages.

The urgent need to reduce the cost of labour in Ireland.

Comments