A bit more than a championship restructure proposal

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-02-2017 06:40PM

Dots1982 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-sees-rise-in-revenue-and-gate-receipts-despite-falling-attendances-35415502.html

Revamping the championship to get rid of all the complete mismatches would halt the decline.

Jayop · 24-02-2017 06:41PM

Dots1982 wrote: »

Not really connected to my proposal what you are proposing as Leitrim would be linked up in a far greater body of counties than just with Sligo for mine to be followed.

But imagine you are from Sligo or Leitrim (or about 15 other counties), what exactly are you getting excited about as things stand?

Leitrim are a tiny team, getting a win the odd year in the championship gets them excited.

Sligo aren't that long from winning a provincial and getting to finals is a regular enough thing. They've had really good runs in the back door quite often since it was introduced and have taken major scalps along the way.

If it goes professional which is in your proposal then amalgamating counties won't make eny difference. Players will be brought in from where they can, the dominant sides will hoover up the talent from all over the country.

What will be to stop Dublin taking the best u13's from Leitrim? Absolutely nothing.

Bonniedog · 24-02-2017 06:41PM

Dots1982 wrote: »

Maybe, then we have the same old counties hoovering up the trophies: Kerry, Tyrone, Galway, Cork, Mayo and Dublin. No interest for the rest, small counties have no reason to compete and supporters have no reason to attend.

C'est la vie indeed

Kerry and Dublin have won close to 40% of AI football titles; Cats, Cork and Tipp probably more than 80% of hurling.

Its same in most sports. Madrid and Barcelona; Juventus and Milan; Munich, New York Yankees ... that's just the way things are.

Ironically biggest spread of winners now is in US sports because they have a draft that allows weakest teams pick best college players. There is no possible equivalent that could be applied to GAA.

People want to see the chap down the road playing, not some import. Fact also is that population is a factor, but people from Leitrim still prefer to see a team of local lads, not cast offs from Mayo or Donegal or Kerry.

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-02-2017 06:42PM

Dots1982 wrote: »

Indeed except the players for weaker counties are completely against the idea.

I accept that but i think its necessary at this stage. The championship as it stands now is a bit of farce until the quarter final stages. I dont think players should have the final say either

Jayop · 24-02-2017 06:43PM

Dots1982 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-sees-rise-in-revenue-and-gate-receipts-despite-falling-attendances-35415502.html

Erm, that doesn't contradict me at all. I literally said "almost" every year. Of course that's hugely dependent on things like replays when you have a calendar as mixed up as we have. 2 full houses in Croker replays would probably have seen that as a huge jump on 2015.

theoneeyedman · 24-02-2017 09:08PM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Pie in the sky nonsense. How exactly do you see this unfolding? And do you really think fans are going to start supporting these new makey up teams with no history or tradition etc?

Give it time, 'fans' will follow successful franchises. Witness provincial Rugby here over the space of 15/20 years even getting people to go to games in Galway, a team with little tradition in a town which has no real tradition of supporting team sports.

I'm not selling it, merely laying out what I think could and possibly will happen. For example, all this talk 'it'll never happen", "supporters will never follow it", "over my dead body" etc.. was heard in the past regarding Rugby League, AFL, Rugby Union etc. etc.....
End of the day, money talks. Sooner or later, players playing Super 8 every year will ask for more of the pie than teams that are never near it.

Coillte_Bhoy · 24-02-2017 10:58PM

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Give it time, 'fans' will follow successful franchises. Witness provincial Rugby here over the space of 15/20 years even getting people to go to games in Galway, a team with little tradition in a town which has no real tradition of supporting team sports.

I'm not selling it, merely laying out what I think could and possibly will happen. For example, all this talk 'it'll never happen", "supporters will never follow it", "over my dead body" etc.. was heard in the past regarding Rugby League, AFL, Rugby Union etc. etc.....
End of the day, money talks. Sooner or later, players playing Super 8 every year will ask for more of the pie than teams that are never near it.

Not a great example, the provincial teams didnt replace any other teams, they didnt wipe out 130 years of history and tradition. I dont know what examples you are referring to with regard to AFL

theoneeyedman · 25-02-2017 01:26PM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Not a great example, the provincial teams didnt replace any other teams, they didnt wipe out 130 years of history and tradition. I dont know what examples you are referring to with regard to AFL

The AFL as it is was born through setting up of franchising and dropping out teams particularly around Victoria based on population (ie too many teams around the one area) : caused a lot of strife at the time.

Don't talk to me about tradition and inter pro rugby, before turning pro there was literally 2 men and a dog at the likes of Munster/Leinster games, and as for connacht....

Coillte_Bhoy · 25-02-2017 01:57PM

theoneeyedman wrote: »

The AFL as it is was born through setting up of franchising and dropping out teams particularly around Victoria based on population (ie too many teams around the one area) : caused a lot of strife at the time.

Don't talk to me about tradition and inter pro rugby, before turning pro there was literally 2 men and a dog at the likes of Munster/Leinster games, and as for connacht....

You're completely misrepresenting me. The provincial teams did not replace teams that had a long history and tradition.

theoneeyedman · 25-02-2017 02:50PM

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

You're completely misrepresenting me. The provincial teams did not replace teams that had a long history and tradition.

They kinda did though.... Club rugby which was in a healthy enough state pre professional rugby, with real competitions and a decent following, has all but been abandoned in favour of the pro game. You could argue (quite reasonably) that it's better now with bigger crowds/bigger following etc, but people quickly forgot the 'old' clubs for the 'new' provinces.

The Lost Sheep · 25-02-2017 08:32PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But we already have a league so that isn't increasing the number of games.. The point there is we are reducing down from 32 odd teams to 10. No matter what way you cut it, that is a lot less games. I doubt there would even be 35k per player per year, as for 100k - fantasy. All grassroots money still has to come from this don't forget.

Re jobs, well my point is would they actually do it though. So the player is getting 35k a year to move to Leitrim for 15 years, at which point the job disappears. His wife/gf might get a job in a shop/pub or something, maybe 20k or so. So for example, she would have to leave her career in Dublin, that she has studied for, that earns maybe 50k and go down to some dead end job for 15 years, just so her husband can earn 35k? I know you can argue some of the details there, but the bottom line is it is simply a terrible career move all round and people just wouldn't do it. The player would need to be on big money to justify this move.

Changing the main competition people think about to a more league/round robin format is better as all teams play more and as a result get more media attention.

100k/year is fantasy for now but who knows how things could change in years to come....

Jayop wrote: »

I'll pick Dublin to win the AI here in the Pools when it comes up, but honestly I'd be more surprised if they do than if they don't. It only takes one bad game and every team will have a bad game once every few years. I wouldn't like to say who will step up and actually win the thing but any of Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly add in Galway over the next few years will have that potential.

An earlier poster said it was cyclical and that's the truth. I know Dublin have huge resources and huge player pools, but they can still only play 15 men at a time (and the ref the odd game ) and their 15 men at the moment and for the last few years have simply been exceptional. The whole house of cards shouldn't come down because we're privileged to be seeing one of the best teams in modern history in their pomp.

While amalgamation of the really small counties sounds like a good idea to people from outside those counties I wonder what a Leitrim player or supporter would think.

What chance would that player have of getting onto the Sligo/Leitrim team?
How many Leitrim players would start games?
Would a Leitrim supporter bother getting excited f Sligo/leitrim win a provincial final with 1 or 2 of their county men playing??
There's loads of proposals, and if the game does go professional then you'll see maybe 7/8 counties around the country going balls out. They'll have to be allowed to bring in outside players because of employment law. Is that what you'd want then?
Would I like to see a professional Tyrone team with 5/6 men from Kerry and Dublin who can't get on their panels playing with us? Nope!!

But when you have 000s more men trying to make that 15 and are getting so much funding then the benefits are obvious.....

Amalgamations would ultimately do **** all to change things....

theoneeyedman wrote: »

They kinda did though.... Club rugby which was in a healthy enough state pre professional rugby, with real competitions and a decent following, has all but been abandoned in favour of the pro game. You could argue (quite reasonably) that it's better now with bigger crowds/bigger following etc, but people quickly forgot the 'old' clubs for the 'new' provinces.

They didn't though. Club Rugby was in a healthy state well after pro rugby was established and only really began to struggle in the mid noughties when provinces really kicked into gear and celtic league(now pro12) had been running a few seasons.

PTH2009 · 07-05-2017 04:14PM

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0507/873226-plans-for-new-round-robin-structure-for-hurling/

Interesting

So is it 1 home, 1 away and 2 neutral games ??

TCDStudent1 · 07-05-2017 04:50PM

PTH2009 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0507/873226-plans-for-new-round-robin-structure-for-hurling/

Interesting

So is it 1 home, 1 away and 2 neutral games ??

When Galway withdrew their home game proposal at congress, it was apparent something like this was in the pipeline.

blanch152 · 08-05-2017 10:08AM

Dots1982 wrote: »

Wrote this on my blog; [url]Https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/2017/02/23/gaelic-football-identifying-addressing-the-real-problems/[/url]

Interested to hear counterpoints or agreement

The problem isn't Dublin, The problem is that there is only one Dublin and about 20 Wexford's, Clare's, Fermanagh's and Sligo's all over the country. The fix increasingly provided by those outside Dublin is spilt Dublin but this won't help the aforementioned counties.They will still be making up numbers and given no chance to compete through the business end of the championship. You can pump development grants into these counties but they can only improve to a certain ceiling because their population is so small.

The present flavour of the month that is being proposed is that the structure of the league is the best competition structure so it should be the main competition. Those proposing that have a point but at the moment players from weaker counties will not agree to competing in a secondary championship.

As stated in paragraph two my belief is that we have too many teams and players in the intercounty setup that in reality contribute little to the competition as a whole. The thought of amalgamating counties is starting to be whispered about in a very mild sort of fashion such as suggesting neighboring division 4 counties like Carlow and Wicklow should join up but as I see it to compete with the financial and population might of Dublin in the future practically every county will need to match up.

For argument's sake the teams with their total populations that I would like to see in the new competition format are as follows:

Kildare Meath Westmeath 505000
Mayo Galway 389000
Cork Kerry 689500
Clare limerick Tipperary Waterford 590000
Wexford Kilkenny Laois Carlow Wicklow 532500
Offaly longford Roscommon Leitrim cavan 291000
Dublin 1.35 million
Louth Armagh Tyrone Monaghan 543000
Antrim Derry down 1.4 million
Donegal Sligo Fermanagh 285000

.

Came across this blog post from 2014 which proposes to create divisional teams:

https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/proposal-for-restructure-of-the-gaelic-football-championship/

While it also proposes amalgamating teams, it does so on the basis of the league, creating divisional teams to compete with Division 1 teams. As you say yourself, a lot of these ideas are just current flavour of the month.

PhuckHugh · 08-05-2017 11:06AM

Gaelic games could go professional but more along the lines of America Football with franchises and players signed to franchises, not counties.

In hurling, you could have 12-14 franchises dotted around the country with players from all counties playing for a franchise.

Let the All Ireland run as is with players playing for their county between end of July and Mid- September (7-8 weeks)

You could have your professional games played between March and end of June and giver players 3/4 weeks with their counties.

The_Kew_Tour · 08-05-2017 01:01PM

The marketing of GAA is just so bad.

Why not have both League Finals on a Bank Holiday weekend for example. Have a Super Sunday of GAA so to speak where 1 Final started at 2 and the other at 4( or around those times.

Also what are people opinion of playing AI final on a Saturday evening? Think the Replays like last year Football seem have better buzz when played in evening.

Its not rocket science

Dots1982 · 08-05-2017 01:21PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The marketing of GAA is just so bad.

Why not have both League Finals on a Bank Holiday weekend for example. Have a Super Sunday of GAA so to speak where 1 Final started at 2 and the other at 4( or around those times.

Also what are people opinion of playing AI final on a Saturday evening? Think the Replays like last year Football seem have better buzz when played in evening.

Its not rocket science

The division 2/3/4 final is largely meaningless, doesn't matter how its promoted. Division 1 final was good this year for the first time in many years.

irelandrover · 08-05-2017 01:25PM

Dots1982 wrote: »

The division 2/3/4 final is largely meaningless, doesn't matter how its promoted. Division 1 final was good this year for the first time in many years.

As a clare supporter winning the Division 3 is not meaningless. I'd be happier to win Division 3 as Clare than challenge division 1 as an amalgamated side.

munchkin_utd · 08-05-2017 01:30PM

amalgamations wont happen so no point wasting time thinking about it.

The GAA thrives on local tribalism. By creating merged regional entities you'd be starting from scratch with peoples allegiances, and you cant suppose that people would care about a made up regional franchise as much as their home county.

so to throw away a half functioning system which gets crowds out in the real world, in order to chance something which might make sense on paper but not actually take off, isnt a runner.

Dots1982 · 08-05-2017 01:31PM

irelandrover wrote: »

As a clare supporter winning the Division 3 is not meaningless. I'd be happier to win Division 3 as Clare than challenge division 1 as an amalgamated side.

Well the finals of division 3/4 were attended by, was it 5000 people, so they seem to be meaningless to most?

PTH2009 · 08-05-2017 01:32PM

The old brigade are giving there opinions on the new hurling system

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0508/873365-hurling-structure/

There's always going to be something wrong with structures according to the older generation guys

Jayop · 08-05-2017 01:32PM

Dots1982 wrote: »

The division 2/3/4 final is largely meaningless, doesn't matter how its promoted. Division 1 final was good this year for the first time in many years.

Was a nice crowd last year for the d2 final but the attraction of the d1 final afterwards probably played into it.

Shurimgreat · 08-05-2017 02:20PM

Its not hard to predict the future of gaelic football 10, 20 or 50 years from now. Dublin will be there or thereabouts with their massive and growing pick of players. Dublin population is due to increase significantly in the next few decades. Kerry will also be picking up AIs handy enough. Mayo and a few others will be on the fringes but struggle to get over the line.

The problem definitely is the huge disparity in resources and populations, outside traditional football strongholds. Some counties like Donegal can pick up an AI every 20 years or so, and likewise a county like Galway. Monaghan I don't think will ever win one in the foreseeable future. Tyrone will never have a golden generation like the one in the 2000s.

So its Kerry or Dublin picking up the vast majority of AIs for the foreseeable future.

Dots1982 · 08-05-2017 02:23PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Its not hard to predict the future of gaelic football 10, 20 or 50 years from now. Dublin will be there or thereabouts with their massive and growing pick of players. Dublin population is due to increase significantly in the next few decades. Kerry will also be picking up AIs handy enough. Mayo and a few others will be on the fringes but struggle to get over the line.

The problem definitely is the huge disparity in resources and populations, outside traditional football strongholds. Some counties like Donegal can pick up an AI every 20 years or so, and likewise a county like Galway. Monaghan I don't think will ever win one in the foreseeable future. Tyrone will never have a golden generation like the one in the 2000s.

So its Kerry or Dublin picking up the vast majority of AIs for the foreseeable future.

Sorry to be a be a bit c*nty but what you're "predicting" there is absolutely nothing is going to change so not exactly sticking your neck out.

Shurimgreat · 08-05-2017 02:46PM

Dots1982 wrote: »

Sorry to be a be a bit c*nty but what you're "predicting" there is absolutely nothing is going to change so not exactly sticking your neck out.

That's my point too. Nothing will change. If anything the status quo becomes more entrenched with every passing year.

The likelihood of a Louth, Offaly, Cavan or even a Meath, Kildare or Derry winning an AI diminishes with each passing year. The chance of a fluke AI for a smaller county is now all but nil.

Something should change, but what is the question. The fact that Dublin is such a behemoth population wise means they can shout down any calls for change.

The football championship is inherently flawed, but what can you do. There's no hope of Carlow or Leitrim or Longford or most counties ever having the millions of euros or hundreds of coaches and thousands of players to choose from, no matter how well they get their house in order.

Dots1982 · 08-05-2017 02:54PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

That's my point too. Nothing will change. If anything the status quo becomes more entrenched with every passing year.

The likelihood of a Louth, Offaly, Cavan or even a Meath, Kildare or Derry winning an AI diminishes with each passing year. The chance of a fluke AI for a smaller county is now all but nil.

Something should change, but what is the question. The fact that Dublin is such a behemoth population wise means they can shout down any calls for change.

The football championship is inherently flawed, but what can you do. There's no hope of Carlow or Leitrim or Longford or most counties ever having the millions of euros or hundreds of coaches and thousands of players to choose from, no matter how well they get their house in order.

I would say long term in the existing system the likelihood is for Dublin to become even more dominant to the point that the competition becomes a farce. But time will tell. Kerry are doing exceptionally well underage. It's like thoroughbred horses down there. Their fathers/uncles/grandfathers won All-Ireland's so it's in their blood. Could get like that in Dublin as well though. They are creating more than a winning team, they are creating a culture of success and excellence.

The Lost Sheep · 08-05-2017 03:49PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Its not hard to predict the future of gaelic football 10, 20 or 50 years from now. Dublin will be there or thereabouts with their massive and growing pick of players. Dublin population is due to increase significantly in the next few decades. Kerry will also be picking up AIs handy enough. Mayo and a few others will be on the fringes but struggle to get over the line.

The problem definitely is the huge disparity in resources and populations, outside traditional football strongholds. Some counties like Donegal can pick up an AI every 20 years or so, and likewise a county like Galway. Monaghan I don't think will ever win one in the foreseeable future. Tyrone will never have a golden generation like the one in the 2000s.

So its Kerry or Dublin picking up the vast majority of AIs for the foreseeable future.

Dublin has already had a massive pick compared to most counties.
There has always been a significant dispariity in resources and populations. Nothing can change that. How do you change things that the sides with biggest populations/resources dont dominate??

Shurimgreat wrote: »

That's my point too. Nothing will change. If anything the status quo becomes more entrenched with every passing year.

The likelihood of a Louth, Offaly, Cavan or even a Meath, Kildare or Derry winning an AI diminishes with each passing year. The chance of a fluke AI for a smaller county is now all but nil.

Something should change, but what is the question. The fact that Dublin is such a behemoth population wise means they can shout down any calls for change.

The football championship is inherently flawed, but what can you do. There's no hope of Carlow or Leitrim or Longford or most counties ever having the millions of euros or hundreds of coaches and thousands of players to choose from, no matter how well they get their house in order.

How many all irelands have Louth, Offaly, Cavan won any time recently and Dublins population doesnt mean they can just shout down calls for change.
How exactly do you change the football championship so it isnt flawed?
There isnt any way that Carlow etc will have thousands of players but theyve never had that. Ideally the competitions should be tiered and the best play the best more and teams can find their own level but who wants that in the main competition thats actually playing/involved in sport at admin level??

Dots1982 · 10-05-2017 11:42AM

munchkin_utd wrote: »

so to throw away a half functioning system which gets crowds out in the real world, in order to chance something which might make sense on paper but not actually take off, isnt a runner.

yet..

Bonniedog · 10-05-2017 12:59PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Dublins population doesnt mean they can just shout down calls for change.

People tend to overlook this. Dublin CB has only same weight as Leitrim at Congress and within overall structures.

A good example of the hypocrisy involved is that same Leinster counties that whinge about Dublin being in Croke Park etc, invariably vote to have Dublin football games in Croke Park because they will benefit from the money. Doesn't stop them going back to their own people and whinging again. DCB has never objected to playing games outside of Dublin and indeed hurlers rarely have home advantage in championship.

A bit more than a championship restructure proposal

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