A bit more than a championship restructure proposal

Dots1982

Wrote this on my blog; [url]Https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/2017/02/23/gaelic-football-identifying-addressing-the-real-problems/[/url]

Interested to hear counterpoints or agreement



The problem isn't Dublin, The problem is that there is only one Dublin and about 20 Wexford's, Clare's, Fermanagh's and Sligo's all over the country. The fix increasingly provided by those outside Dublin is spilt Dublin but this won't help the aforementioned counties.They will still be making up numbers and given no chance to compete through the business end of the championship. You can pump development grants into these counties but they can only improve to a certain ceiling because their population is so small.

The problem isn't that the best intercounty GAA players lack skill or are human robots that play without spontaneity as is so often heard on RTE. The problem is that there are too many intercounty teams and hence too many intercounty players for it to be truly considered elite. People don't watch the elite to see the Wicklow corner backs or number 24 on the Cork panel. 33 football teams in championship with match day squads of 24 adds up to 768. How many of those players are truly household names on a national level. 10% at most? If you take out players from your own county how many present intercounty players could you name. There are just too many intercounty players who are not truly elite.

The problem IS structures; competition, fixture and intercounty. The competition isn't competitive in a meaningful way until the quarter final or semi final stage, the fixtures are far too far apart for much of the season and the training to game ratio is irrational. Club calendars are thrown into disarray and played off in a rush after months of inactivity.

None of this is news. It is being discussed at length on Internet forums and social and mass media but the current way this discussion proceeds doesn't seem to provide a workable solution to many never mind all of the problems. Any alternative structure proposed does not address the underlying issue that it is the same four or five contenders for trophies every season. The present flavour of the month that is being proposed is that the structure of the league is the best competition structure so it should be the main competition. Those proposing that have a point but at the moment players from weaker counties will not agree to competing in a secondary championship. It's also worth remembering that league semis and finals for the past 5 or so years have largely been non-events and Dublin have won almost all games in the league playoffs pulling up. These problems are insurmountable in my view.

I'd like to say the solution I have is straightforward but complicated problems need radical solutions and mine is pretty radical.

Dublin are not really what the old GAA are about but they should be what the new GAA are about. Without going into it too deeply the GAA implemented their own radical strategy in the mid 2000s and decided to pump development funds into an already strong, well populated Dublin setup on an unprecedented level. This investment was buttressed by the Irish Sports Council who committed one million euro a year over the course of at least six years to Dublin GAA (http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/dublin-answer-6m-question-26759948.html). Add in sponsorship revenue that no other county can come close to matching and it doesn't take Malcom Gladwell to work out that Dublin becoming an unbeatable powerhouse was inevitable. A cursory look over any final Olympic medal table will tell you that the equation; Population + Investment = Success, almost always rings true in sport.

But as I said Dublin are not the problem, the problem is there is only one Dublin. The GAA need to find a way to create more Dublins and that's where the radical decisions come in.

As stated in paragraph two my belief is that we have too many teams and players in the intercounty setup that in reality contribute little to the competition as a whole. The thought of amalgamating counties is starting to be whispered about in a very mild sort of fashion such as suggesting neighboring division 4 counties like Carlow and Wicklow should join up but as I see it to compete with the financial and population might of Dublin in the future practically every county will need to match up.

For argument's sake the teams with their total populations that I would like to see in the new competition format are as follows:

Kildare Meath Westmeath 505000
Mayo Galway 389000
Cork Kerry 689500
Clare limerick Tipperary Waterford 590000
Wexford Kilkenny Laois Carlow Wicklow 532500
Offaly longford Roscommon Leitrim cavan 291000
Dublin 1.35 million
Louth Armagh Tyrone Monaghan 543000
Antrim Derry down 1.4 million
Donegal Sligo Fermanagh 285000

Kind of "out-there" I know but it gets worst for the "True Gaels". This system will only work in a professional or semi professional era. The logistics don't work otherwise in terms of the travel for training. The competition format would be straight league home and away with no relegation as I'd see it so 18 weeks of action. Maybe we could borrow from AFL's competition format but basically a straight league with a possibility of playoffs at the end. For the sacrifice of county borders we get two huge rewards
Every team being able to call on truly elite players and those elites playing against each other every week in a fixed league calendar.
We bring the disenfranchised counties that make up the majority back into the centre of the competition and offer them a team and a competition that will re-energise the counties making up the numbers

Apart from that we get many bonuses; from a format that is "Fantasy Football" friendly which you may scoff at but anyone who follows NFL in this country knows the power that Fantasy Football can have in broadening a sport's appeal to the ability of the GAA to launch their own TV channel and boost their revenue to another stratosphere. The sport will have marketability and sexiness and a lot of the things that make the Premier league and the NFL such constant water cooler topics.

There are many reading who may think this is crazy but if sport is ran in every other country like this and we run it in a way that is different to the entire rest of the world then who truly is crazy?

There are plenty of drawbacks of course worth discussing. For instance where does these plans leave hurling? The answer is for the moment they won't be able to join the professional party. Their time may be in another ten to fifteen years from now when there is a reasonable chance Dublin will rule there as well and change is required to retain a meaningful All-Ireland championship. The other issue is where is the money going to come from to contract 30 (man squads) by 10 (teams) so 300 players at a generous wage of something like an average of 70000 euro a year. So to cover this we would need the GAA to pony up 21 million a year. It may sound like a lot but since the 6.2 million euro the GAA currently pay the GPA a year would be wiped away the figure is more like 16 million. The extra revenue that will raised from gate receipts, TV income and sponsorship will far outstrip the current cash being raised from these sources. Factor in also that GPOs will not need to be the expense it currently is since we have 300 GPOs with a long off season that can become the new army of GPOs. Also mileage expenses would be done away with. There is also the possibility of Private Ownership of the GAA franchises if we wish to go down that road. It works in AFL so why not GAA? The biggest expense with this transition to professionalism is likely to be the capital expenditure required to improve stadia to cope with the huge crowds that the new competition will draw.

Away from the revenue argument the biggest attacks that would be launched on my plan if they were ever debated on a national level would be the "hearts and minds" argument; That GAA is about playing for your area and people have no interest in playing or supporting an entity that isn't their exact county or that they won't support players for their team who are outsiders. Well players ultimately won't care, they will just be happy to make their living from doing what they love. The fans; some traditionalists may walk away from the new format. But some would not be a significant number for me. The same people who support GAA support sporting entities of which they have no connection to. So they love Manchester United and hate Manchester City or love Everton and hate Liverpool. You think most of them wouldn't be able to get over it if the team they are supporting has changed shape but is now playing in a far more competitive and interesting format. You decide.

The GAA ethic of volunteerism would be harmed the naysayers would argue. It's fair to say.. maybe ..but I would need it explained to me how in Ireland kids still get coached and managed by parents and volunteers for underage soccer teams when the game is professional at elite level. I'm not saying things would be the same but I would definitely need to be shown why the spirit of volunteerism is unique to GAA and isn't seen already seen in the likes of soccer, boxing, swimming and athletics already on this island. Answers in the comments section below if you have one.

Where my plan leaves the new elite professional level players in term of availability for their clubs I don't know in the long term. Under my plan the elite competition would be actually shorter and follow a definite calendar which would be goes news for the clubs and the CPA but to be honest I'm not sure about the club/elite spilt anymore. I'm not sure if it is asking too much for players to serve both club and county in the current system and club and elite in the format I purpose. I also have not addressed will there be transfers and drafts in my plan. That would be a pain point no doubt if introduced. Another obvious pain point will be the merging of counties like Kerry and Cork and Galway and Mayo who traditionally compete at the business end year in and year out. I can't say for certain the level of opposition that would exist for my plan in those counties. However if they are faced with the counties around them merging and strengthening then it will mean they may struggle to compete and no one can predict how that would play out.


The other arguments I would predict to hear against my plan would be that stuff like Ireland can't support professional sport or I'm being hysterical because even if 90% of counties do not have any hope of national success it has for the most part always been that way. I don't frankly understand how anyone could hold the first point of view. If poorer countries than ours can support female professional volleyball and basketball I have no idea why anyone would think we can't sustain a professional version of the most well-attended sport in the country. As for the second argument, the GAA is now a sport that needs to appeal in the live TV market. It didn't matter in the 70s and 80s if it was the same teams always winning because only the semis and final were on TV anyway. Now it does matter as in this era games are on TV every weekend.

I could be wrong about Dublin and how I envisage them being an almost unbeatable force for all time but even if I'm not there are still too many counties completely disfranchised under the current system. Large areas of Ireland not close to fulfilling their potential not because they see the sport as crap but only because they have no success to aspire to because the competition structure being based on population makes it so lopsided.


Before I wind this up; Whether you agree with me or not on my proposal or professionalism in the GAA let's get one thing clear here; Dublin, Mayo, Kerry etc Gaelic Football players generate more income for Ireland than almost any other Irish person. Programme sellers, match officials, Ground staff, Police, vintners, medical personnel/physiotherapists, journalists and their employers whether print radio or online, Bus/train Drivers, hotels, car park operators, shop owners, burger van operators and on and on. The list is endless. The people generating these millions get no salary. The lack of a fair salary for elite GAA players is slave labour and contravenes the most basic economic theory on the labour market. The only real pity about my proposal is that if followed it would leave the great hurlers of the country out in the cold but hopefully their day will come too. The truly elite players all deserve to be paid, and as I see it, the great thing is it will benefit the country in generating more income for people all over the land and benefit the sport by providing a much greater competitive spectacle. It will take it to a completely new height as a national obsession.

MayoAreMagic

In fairness, joining everyone else up to match the one team that is miles out of kilter is not a reasonable solution... It is never going to happen because it is quite unworkable. For example, where are these joined up teams going to train? Are lads going to be taking 4 hour round trips every time the team need to meet? You have to wonder are these solutions any more than an excuse to keep Dublin together? There is zero interest in how the thing would actually work, or how those teams would be able to operate. It is just a numbers game, with the goal being, bring everyone else up to Dublin's level to remove the imbalance. You don't have to be a genius to work out the other option that this is moving away from...

I believe, if we got an outsider to look at it, they would say that the optimum operation level for gaa counties would be around 130,000 - 170,000. Or in other words in and around the populations of mayo, donegal, Kerry, tyrone etc.
(For arguments sake I will ignore duel county requirements for now.)
So, why are we pumping everyone up to miles above this level then?

This is where we fall down. We seem to want everyone to be like Dublin at any cost, while completely missing the fact that teams don't need to be like Dublin to be at a very high level - just a score or two short of the level that Dublin themselves are at to be exact. In fact, there is a school of though out there to suggest that there is huge waste with the way Dublin is set up - colossal resource imbalances - be they population or monetary, and the end result is worth two scores? That is the model this are suggesting we all follow...

We are all a bit enamoured with the shiny, professional Dublin system at the minute. But to me, the real lesson is that Dublin can only beat the likes of mayo or tyrone by a point - therefore our model going forward should be the mayos/tyrones/kerrys rather than Dublin, and that there is in fact a lot of wastage in Dublin.

A far more reasonable idea would be to define an optimum gaa performance range for counties to be competitive. Then implement a two-fold system where counties like Leitrim etc were offered the option to join up with a neighbour in a similar situation, to bring them up to that optimum population range, while Dublin is split up - first in two, with the thing developed over time, and the goal being to get as many of those 1.4 odd million Dubs involved as possible, while giving Dublin a number of genuinely competitive sides. To me, that would be a great competition.

That to me is the optimum, and also fairest system. Every single person in the country would have a level footing going in. I truly believe that it would invigorate the gaa, and what is more, this could be done in the morning. Of course people will say 'oh it is fair on mayo' - simply because Im from mayo. But look, take a step back for a minute; mayo are consistently competitive at the top level at all age groups with massive fan involvement and player participation per capita. The same goes for Kerry, the same goes for tyrone, or Kilkenny and Tipp in the hurling. If people take off the county colours for a second and view the thing objectively, it is undeniable that these are in fact the optimum models for teams going forward, not Dublin.

Dots1982

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

In fairness, joining everyone else up to match the one team that is miles out of kilter is not a reasonable solution... It is never going to happen because it is quite unworkable. For example, where are these joined up teams going to train? Are lads going to be taking 4 hour round trips every time the team need to meet?

Did you read the entire piece, they are paid professionals. So like most of us they will look to live close to where they work.

Mr. Incognito

Ridiculous Idea.

How long have you been following GAA.

Offaly were in a Hurling All Ireland and Football All Ireland in 1982.

Cork did the Double in 1990

Dublin scraped a win in 2011 and have been pushed to a replay in the last All Ireland. Before that their last win since 1977 was one All Ireland in 1995

Kerry were in 6 All Irelands in a row from 2004.

Teams are Cyclical.

Dublin will have a few good years then another team will come along.

The only intervention in the Championship was the back door which has led to the two tier system. It should be scrapped in my opinon.

If you lose once you should be out. By All Means set up a B Championship to give knocked out teams further games.

Your idea will never happen and is totally unrealistic.

EDIT I've had a look through your blog

– Simply put Jack Mccaffrey could be the greatest wing back the game has ever seen. He’s irrepressible

I take it you are in your early twenties? Maybe late teens?

Dots1982

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Ridiculous Idea.

How long have you been following GAA.

Offaly were in a Hurling All Ireland and Football All Ireland in 1982.

Cork did the Double in 1990

Dublin scraped a win in 2011 and have been pushed to a replay in the last All Ireland. Before that their last win since 1977 was one All Ireland in 1995

Kerry were in 6 All Irelands in a row from 2004.

Teams are Cyclical.

Dublin will have a few good years then another team will come along.

The only intervention in the Championship was the back door which has led to the two tier system. It should be scrapped in my opinon.

If you lose once you should be out. By All Means set up a B Championship to give knocked out teams further games.

Your idea will never happen and is totally unrealistic.

EDIT I've had a look through your blog



I take it you are in your early twenties? Maybe late teens?

Grand, suppose they don't change and Dublin actually are unbeatable. I could be wrong but let me guess you can't be?

Mr. Incognito

Dublin actually are unbeatable

Come back in ten years when you've watched a bit more football.

That's not been condecending but you are too young to know anything but one good team.

I've seen dozens. Dublin had the hype long before they won anything.

It's nice that they have won a few All Irelands but to call any team unbeatable is hyperbole which one tends to grow out of.

Dublin will lose. All teams lose. That's sport, unless you are the 1972 Miami Dolphins.

Dots1982

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Come back in ten years when you've watched a bit more football.

That's not been condecending but you are too young to know anything but one good team.

I've seen dozens. Dublin had the hype long before they won anything.

It's nice that they have won a few All Irelands but to call any team unbeatable is hyperbole which one tends to grow out of.

Dublin will lose. All teams lose. That's sport, unless you are the 1972 Miami Dolphins.

You speak as a aged person.

Maturity normally grants you the ability to know sometimes you are wrong as well as right


Unfortunately your maturity has not granted you the self awareness to realise this.

MayoAreMagic

Dots1982 wrote: »

Did you read the entire piece, they are paid professionals. So like most of us they will look to live close to where they work.

Yes but realistically, what kind of wage are they going to be on? 35-40k or so a year? With the reduction of teams involved, and therefore games to make money from, would it be even that? Probably not when you factor in squads are 30+ guys and a backroom team.Like you are saying lads are going to move down to Leitrim for 15 years and spend all their time playing gaa until they have to retire - nuking their career prospects outside the game, for what would be around the average wage, which then goes away completely? The wage simply isn't high enough for people to make that commitment.

Is their employment in these places for their other halves and families for example? Or do they just have to live away from their families for that time?

It doesn't stand up. They would need to be on serious money to justify the thing. Most gaa players would actually be better off now as they are, with many in token gesture jobs that allows them to develop some level of a career while still playing gaa as a de facto professional.

The reality is lumping in a load of teams together, that are many hours travel from each other, is simply not feasible, unless they are going to be earning money that will set them up for life.

Dots1982

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Yes but realistically, what kind of wage are they going to be on? 35-40k or so a year?

50k to 100k about average of 70k, it's in the piece

theoneeyedman

I don't think Mayo are an example for anyone really. Up to their boll1x in depth and still spent 1.6/1.7 million in team expenses last year, that's hardly sustainable nor an example to anyone on how to run an organisation, professional or amateur.

The OP has proposed an interesting hypothesis, based primarily on population. However, I can't see Kerry and Cork for example joining anytime soon, and likewise a spread like the Clare to Waterford one might add up in terms of population, a lot of this is hurling country and really would it support (fans or financially) a football team? It's an interesting proposition nonetheless.

My own opinion that I've opined a few years ago, is that longterm a pro set up of 8 to 12 teams max will emerge, probably 10 teams. They will be based around several centres based on population and strong hinterlands, not unlike in the OP. 2 or 3 maybe around Greater Dublin, one in Belfast/NE, Cork/South East, South West/Kerry, Galway/West, a couple in Ulster, say based in Derry/Donegal, Newry and one more, say 2 up the middle of the country etc... Obviously I haven't figured out the combinations properly but you get the idea. Impetus for this will not come from the GAA themselves, but from outside, likely a tv/Internet 'broadcaster' and a breakaway player group or a threat of a breakaway,and will see the end of the county boundary model as we know it,

The Lost Sheep

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Yes but realistically, what kind of wage are they going to be on? 35-40k or so a year? With the reduction of teams involved, and therefore games to make money from, would it be even that? Probably not when you factor in squads are 30+ guys and a backroom team. Like you are saying lads are going to move down to Leitrim for 15 years and spend all their time playing gaa until they have to retire - nuking their career prospects outside the game, for what would be around the average wage, which then goes away completely? The wage simply isn't high enough for people to make that commitment.

Is their employment in these places for their other halves and families for example? Or do they just have to live away from their families for that time?

It doesn't stand up. They would need to be on serious money to justify the thing. Most gaa players would actually be better off now as they are, with many in token gesture jobs that allows them to develop some level of a career while still playing gaa as a de facto professional.

The reality is lumping in a load of teams together, that are many hours travel from each other, is simply not feasible, unless they are going to be earning money that will set them up for life.

If there is less teams you can have a round robin and the sides play each other in league format and then knockout cup. You can quite easily see that jobs can be found for spouses just like for anyone who has to move job and a spouse has to find work...

Dots1982 wrote: »

50k to 100k about average of 70k, it's in the piece

Where the hell does the money of that much come from?

Dots1982

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Where the hell does the money of that much come from?

its 21 million for the players (10 team with a playing staff of 30 on 70k average is 21million) , the money (6.2 million) the GAA pay the GPA would be gone, Paid GAA coaches for youths may be gone because the players would have off season responsbilities to be coaches for young players.

The GAA in it current format brings in 50 to 60 million a year and the intercounty game is a huge part of that figure. So if they could target making more money in a professional business environment i fail to see why 15 million to pay players would be that big of a deal. throw in tax breaks that pro athletes get in this country and you may be able to pay them less but they keep more.

I'm not bluffing the figures but they are loose, of course ill admit but please remember GAA in terms of what it is worth to the economy is a lot more than 21 or 15 million. More like a 100 million I'd say.

MayoAreMagic

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

If there is less teams you can have a round robin and the sides play each other in league format and then knockout cup. You can quite easily see that jobs can be found for spouses just like for anyone who has to move job and a spouse has to find work...

Where the hell does the money of that much come from?

But we already have a league so that isn't increasing the number of games.. The point there is we are reducing down from 32 odd teams to 10. No matter what way you cut it, that is a lot less games. I doubt there would even be 35k per player per year, as for 100k - fantasy. All grassroots money still has to come from this don't forget.

Re jobs, well my point is would they actually do it though. So the player is getting 35k a year to move to Leitrim for 15 years, at which point the job disappears. His wife/gf might get a job in a shop/pub or something, maybe 20k or so. So for example, she would have to leave her career in Dublin, that she has studied for, that earns maybe 50k and go down to some dead end job for 15 years, just so her husband can earn 35k? I know you can argue some of the details there, but the bottom line is it is simply a terrible career move all round and people just wouldn't do it. The player would need to be on big money to justify this move.

MayoAreMagic

theoneeyedman wrote: »

I don't think Mayo are an example for anyone really. Up to their boll1x in depth and still spent 1.6/1.7 million in team expenses last year, that's hardly sustainable nor an example to anyone on how to run an organisation, professional or amateur.

Well I did say Kerry, tyrone mayo, but I will take on your point. Mayo's debt is to do with their stadium. But those are fixed costs for the majority of counties at some stage. They will all have to take out a loan - unless you suggest they build it a bit at a time over 20 years. You won't have to refurb your stadium every year though. Furthermore, they still turned a profit last year. If they are still turning a profit, despite having large repayments and spending more than ever before, I would argue that it is very sustainable.

theoneeyedman wrote: »

The OP has proposed an interesting hypothesis, based primarily on population. However, I can't see Kerry and Cork for example joining anytime soon, and likewise a spread like the Clare to Waterford one might add up in terms of population, a lot of this is hurling country and really would it support (fans or financially) a football team? It's an interesting proposition nonetheless.

My own opinion that I've opined a few years ago, is that longterm a pro set up of 8 to 12 teams max will emerge, probably 10 teams. They will be based around several centres based on population and strong hinterlands, not unlike in the OP. 2 or 3 maybe around Greater Dublin, one in Belfast/NE, Cork/South East, South West/Kerry, Galway/West, a couple in Ulster, say based in Derry/Donegal, Newry and one more, say 2 up the middle of the country etc... Obviously I haven't figured out the combinations properly but you get the idea. Impetus for this will not come from the GAA themselves, but from outside, likely a tv/Internet 'broadcaster' and a breakaway player group or a threat of a breakaway,and will see the end of the county boundary model as we know it,

But again, why would we ape the Dublin model, with mass combination, when the mass combination of all those extra resources are only giving you a few points? Like Dublin have, literally, 10 times what mayo has, yet are only slightly ahead of them. There is mass non-participation in Dublin. There are 100s of players who could have been intercounty players, that will never be. Dublin is not the model we should be following.

Surely we are better with 30 tyrone/Kerry/mayos i.e. the counties which appear to be performing at or around optimum level - which in turn is only slightly below Dublin's level? Making everyone like Dublin is step backwards.

Coillte_Bhoy

Dots1982 wrote: »

As stated in paragraph two my belief is that we have too many teams and players in the intercounty setup that in reality contribute little to the competition as a whole. The thought of amalgamating counties is starting to be whispered about in a very mild sort of fashion such as suggesting neighboring division 4 counties like Carlow and Wicklow should join up but as I see it to compete with the financial and population might of Dublin in the future practically every county will need to match up.

Eh, actually no it's not.

Coillte_Bhoy

theoneeyedman wrote: »

My own opinion that I've opined a few years ago, is that longterm a pro set up of 8 to 12 teams max will emerge, probably 10 teams. They will be based around several centres based on population and strong hinterlands, not unlike in the OP. 2 or 3 maybe around Greater Dublin, one in Belfast/NE, Cork/South East, South West/Kerry, Galway/West, a couple in Ulster, say based in Derry/Donegal, Newry and one more, say 2 up the middle of the country etc... Obviously I haven't figured out the combinations properly but you get the idea. Impetus for this will not come from the GAA themselves, but from outside, likely a tv/Internet 'broadcaster' and a breakaway player group or a threat of a breakaway,and will see the end of the county boundary model as we know it,

Pie in the sky nonsense. How exactly do you see this unfolding? And do you really think fans are going to start supporting these new makey up teams with no history or tradition etc?

Dots1982

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Eh, actually no it's not.

OK probably not the key point from the article but you have a point, its more a thing ive seen on forums or heard people speak about .

But not something massively worth zoning in on I would say.

Coillte_Bhoy

Dots1982 wrote: »

OK probably not the key point from the article but you have a point, its more a thing ive seen on forums or heard people speak about .

But not something massively worth zoning in on I would say.

Even though its the cornerstone of your proposal? Interesting piece but totally unrealistic imo

Dots1982

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Even though its the cornerstone of your proposal? Interesting piece but totally unrealistic imo

ok, anything else you'd like to discuss?

lawred2

Cork and Kerry?

You do know Kerry have more all Ireland's than anyone right?

lawred2

It's never going to happen. It's also massively soulless and anti community which is the antithesis of the GAA.

Back to the drawing board lad.

Funny that your plan would have seen the obliteration of the only two footballing counties in Munster.

Dots1982

lawred2 wrote: »

Cork and Kerry?

You do know Kerry have more all Ireland's than anyone right?

Yeah but Cork are completely ****e

I would say it's not ideal. But its not like they have a massive population advantage over anyone like the current system allows. If kerry have the best footballers per capita then good luck to them.

If we go down the draft and transfer route it also evens the playing field.

Bonniedog

Dots1982 wrote: »

Grand, suppose they don't change and Dublin actually are unbeatable. I could be wrong but let me guess you can't be?

Perhaps you should check out the underage and schools results of last 4/5 years. Dublin's golden era is over when this team packs up.

This is "golden generation" of Dublin footballers led by particularly clever manager who was also largely responsible for the underage success that preceded this.

It will end. Just as everything does and people will be back calling Dublin "losers" and "underachievers".

Ce la vie, my friend...

Dots1982

lawred2 wrote: »

It's never going to happen. It's also massively soulless and anti community which is the antithesis of the GAA.

Back to the drawing board lad.

Sure but ultimately money will talk and if the current domination by 4 or so counties continue the rest will vote with their feet and if the GAA start losing money in a serious way, trust me all bets are off.

Dots1982

Bonniedog wrote: »

Perhaps you should check out the underage and schools results of last 4/5 years. Dublin's golden era is over when this team packs up.

This is "golden generation" of Dublin footballers led by particularly clever manager who was also largely responsible for the underage success that preceded this.

It will end. Just as everything does and people will be back calling Dublin "losers" and "underachievers".

Ce la vie, my friend...

Maybe, then we have the same old counties hoovering up the trophies: Kerry, Tyrone, Galway, Cork, Mayo and Dublin. No interest for the rest, small counties have no reason to compete and supporters have no reason to attend.

C'est la vie indeed

Jayop

I'll pick Dublin to win the AI here in the Pools when it comes up, but honestly I'd be more surprised if they do than if they don't. It only takes one bad game and every team will have a bad game once every few years. I wouldn't like to say who will step up and actually win the thing but any of Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly add in Galway over the next few years will have that potential.

An earlier poster said it was cyclical and that's the truth. I know Dublin have huge resources and huge player pools, but they can still only play 15 men at a time (and the ref the odd game ) and their 15 men at the moment and for the last few years have simply been exceptional. The whole house of cards shouldn't come down because we're privileged to be seeing one of the best teams in modern history in their pomp.

While amalgamation of the really small counties sounds like a good idea to people from outside those counties I wonder what a Leitrim player or supporter would think.

What chance would that player have of getting onto the Sligo/Leitrim team?
How many Leitrim players would start games?
Would a Leitrim supporter bother getting excited f Sligo/leitrim win a provincial final with 1 or 2 of their county men playing??


There's loads of proposals, and if the game does go professional then you'll see maybe 7/8 counties around the country going balls out. They'll have to be allowed to bring in outside players because of employment law. Is that what you'd want then?

Would I like to see a professional Tyrone team with 5/6 men from Kerry and Dublin who can't get on their panels playing with us? Nope!!

Jayop

Dots1982 wrote: »

Sure but ultimately money will talk and if the current domination by 4 or so counties continue the rest will vote with their feet and if the GAA start losing money in a serious way, trust me all bets are off.

Why then are gate numbers up pretty much every year?

If people were so unhappy then why do they continue to pay in?

Dots1982

Jayop wrote: »

What chance would that player have of getting onto the Sligo/Leitrim team?
How many Leitrim players would start games?
Would a Leitrim supporter bother getting excited f Sligo/leitrim win a provincial final with 1 or 2 of their county men playing??

Not really connected to my proposal what you are proposing as Leitrim would be linked up in a far greater body of counties than just with Sligo for mine to be followed.

But imagine you are from Sligo or Leitrim (or about 15 other counties), what exactly are you getting excited about as things stand?

Dots1982

Jayop wrote: »

Why then are gate numbers up pretty much every year?

If people were so unhappy then why do they continue to pay in?

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-sees-rise-in-revenue-and-gate-receipts-despite-falling-attendances-35415502.html

Coillte_Bhoy

Dots1982 wrote: »

Sure but ultimately money will talk and if the current domination by 4 or so counties continue the rest will vote with their feet and if the GAA start losing money in a serious way, trust me all bets are off.

What exactly does that even mean?

Dots1982 wrote: »

Maybe, then we have the same old counties hoovering up the trophies: Kerry, Tyrone, Galway, Cork, Mayo and Dublin. No interest for the rest, small counties have no reason to compete and supporters have no reason to attend.

C'est la vie indeed

Smaller counties have had nothing much to play for anyway since the GAA began in that case.

Have tiered championships, let everyone play to their level like happens in virtually every other team sport in the world.

Dots1982

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Smaller counties have had nothing much to play for anyway since the GAA began in that case.

Have tiered championships, let everyone play to their level like happens in virtually every other team sport in the world.

Indeed except the players for weaker counties are completely against the idea.

Coillte_Bhoy

Dots1982 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-sees-rise-in-revenue-and-gate-receipts-despite-falling-attendances-35415502.html

Revamping the championship to get rid of all the complete mismatches would halt the decline.

Jayop

Dots1982 wrote: »

Not really connected to my proposal what you are proposing as Leitrim would be linked up in a far greater body of counties than just with Sligo for mine to be followed.

But imagine you are from Sligo or Leitrim (or about 15 other counties), what exactly are you getting excited about as things stand?

Leitrim are a tiny team, getting a win the odd year in the championship gets them excited.

Sligo aren't that long from winning a provincial and getting to finals is a regular enough thing. They've had really good runs in the back door quite often since it was introduced and have taken major scalps along the way.


If it goes professional which is in your proposal then amalgamating counties won't make eny difference. Players will be brought in from where they can, the dominant sides will hoover up the talent from all over the country.

What will be to stop Dublin taking the best u13's from Leitrim? Absolutely nothing.

Bonniedog

Dots1982 wrote: »

Maybe, then we have the same old counties hoovering up the trophies: Kerry, Tyrone, Galway, Cork, Mayo and Dublin. No interest for the rest, small counties have no reason to compete and supporters have no reason to attend.

C'est la vie indeed

Kerry and Dublin have won close to 40% of AI football titles; Cats, Cork and Tipp probably more than 80% of hurling.

Its same in most sports. Madrid and Barcelona; Juventus and Milan; Munich, New York Yankees ... that's just the way things are.

Ironically biggest spread of winners now is in US sports because they have a draft that allows weakest teams pick best college players. There is no possible equivalent that could be applied to GAA.

People want to see the chap down the road playing, not some import. Fact also is that population is a factor, but people from Leitrim still prefer to see a team of local lads, not cast offs from Mayo or Donegal or Kerry.

Coillte_Bhoy

Dots1982 wrote: »

Indeed except the players for weaker counties are completely against the idea.

I accept that but i think its necessary at this stage. The championship as it stands now is a bit of farce until the quarter final stages. I dont think players should have the final say either

Jayop

Dots1982 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaa-sees-rise-in-revenue-and-gate-receipts-despite-falling-attendances-35415502.html

Erm, that doesn't contradict me at all. I literally said "almost" every year. Of course that's hugely dependent on things like replays when you have a calendar as mixed up as we have. 2 full houses in Croker replays would probably have seen that as a huge jump on 2015.

theoneeyedman

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Pie in the sky nonsense. How exactly do you see this unfolding? And do you really think fans are going to start supporting these new makey up teams with no history or tradition etc?

Give it time, 'fans' will follow successful franchises. Witness provincial Rugby here over the space of 15/20 years even getting people to go to games in Galway, a team with little tradition in a town which has no real tradition of supporting team sports.

I'm not selling it, merely laying out what I think could and possibly will happen. For example, all this talk 'it'll never happen", "supporters will never follow it", "over my dead body" etc.. was heard in the past regarding Rugby League, AFL, Rugby Union etc. etc.....
End of the day, money talks. Sooner or later, players playing Super 8 every year will ask for more of the pie than teams that are never near it.

Coillte_Bhoy

theoneeyedman wrote: »

Give it time, 'fans' will follow successful franchises. Witness provincial Rugby here over the space of 15/20 years even getting people to go to games in Galway, a team with little tradition in a town which has no real tradition of supporting team sports.

I'm not selling it, merely laying out what I think could and possibly will happen. For example, all this talk 'it'll never happen", "supporters will never follow it", "over my dead body" etc.. was heard in the past regarding Rugby League, AFL, Rugby Union etc. etc.....
End of the day, money talks. Sooner or later, players playing Super 8 every year will ask for more of the pie than teams that are never near it.

Not a great example, the provincial teams didnt replace any other teams, they didnt wipe out 130 years of history and tradition. I dont know what examples you are referring to with regard to AFL

theoneeyedman

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

Not a great example, the provincial teams didnt replace any other teams, they didnt wipe out 130 years of history and tradition. I dont know what examples you are referring to with regard to AFL

The AFL as it is was born through setting up of franchising and dropping out teams particularly around Victoria based on population (ie too many teams around the one area) : caused a lot of strife at the time.

Don't talk to me about tradition and inter pro rugby, before turning pro there was literally 2 men and a dog at the likes of Munster/Leinster games, and as for connacht....

Coillte_Bhoy

theoneeyedman wrote: »

The AFL as it is was born through setting up of franchising and dropping out teams particularly around Victoria based on population (ie too many teams around the one area) : caused a lot of strife at the time.

Don't talk to me about tradition and inter pro rugby, before turning pro there was literally 2 men and a dog at the likes of Munster/Leinster games, and as for connacht....

You're completely misrepresenting me. The provincial teams did not replace teams that had a long history and tradition.

theoneeyedman

Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »

You're completely misrepresenting me. The provincial teams did not replace teams that had a long history and tradition.

They kinda did though.... Club rugby which was in a healthy enough state pre professional rugby, with real competitions and a decent following, has all but been abandoned in favour of the pro game. You could argue (quite reasonably) that it's better now with bigger crowds/bigger following etc, but people quickly forgot the 'old' clubs for the 'new' provinces.

The Lost Sheep

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

But we already have a league so that isn't increasing the number of games.. The point there is we are reducing down from 32 odd teams to 10. No matter what way you cut it, that is a lot less games. I doubt there would even be 35k per player per year, as for 100k - fantasy. All grassroots money still has to come from this don't forget.

Re jobs, well my point is would they actually do it though. So the player is getting 35k a year to move to Leitrim for 15 years, at which point the job disappears. His wife/gf might get a job in a shop/pub or something, maybe 20k or so. So for example, she would have to leave her career in Dublin, that she has studied for, that earns maybe 50k and go down to some dead end job for 15 years, just so her husband can earn 35k? I know you can argue some of the details there, but the bottom line is it is simply a terrible career move all round and people just wouldn't do it. The player would need to be on big money to justify this move.

Changing the main competition people think about to a more league/round robin format is better as all teams play more and as a result get more media attention.

100k/year is fantasy for now but who knows how things could change in years to come....

Jayop wrote: »

I'll pick Dublin to win the AI here in the Pools when it comes up, but honestly I'd be more surprised if they do than if they don't. It only takes one bad game and every team will have a bad game once every few years. I wouldn't like to say who will step up and actually win the thing but any of Kerry, Mayo, Tyrone and possibly add in Galway over the next few years will have that potential.

An earlier poster said it was cyclical and that's the truth. I know Dublin have huge resources and huge player pools, but they can still only play 15 men at a time (and the ref the odd game ) and their 15 men at the moment and for the last few years have simply been exceptional. The whole house of cards shouldn't come down because we're privileged to be seeing one of the best teams in modern history in their pomp.

While amalgamation of the really small counties sounds like a good idea to people from outside those counties I wonder what a Leitrim player or supporter would think.

What chance would that player have of getting onto the Sligo/Leitrim team?
How many Leitrim players would start games?
Would a Leitrim supporter bother getting excited f Sligo/leitrim win a provincial final with 1 or 2 of their county men playing??
There's loads of proposals, and if the game does go professional then you'll see maybe 7/8 counties around the country going balls out. They'll have to be allowed to bring in outside players because of employment law. Is that what you'd want then?
Would I like to see a professional Tyrone team with 5/6 men from Kerry and Dublin who can't get on their panels playing with us? Nope!!

But when you have 000s more men trying to make that 15 and are getting so much funding then the benefits are obvious.....

Amalgamations would ultimately do **** all to change things....

theoneeyedman wrote: »

They kinda did though.... Club rugby which was in a healthy enough state pre professional rugby, with real competitions and a decent following, has all but been abandoned in favour of the pro game. You could argue (quite reasonably) that it's better now with bigger crowds/bigger following etc, but people quickly forgot the 'old' clubs for the 'new' provinces.

They didn't though. Club Rugby was in a healthy state well after pro rugby was established and only really began to struggle in the mid noughties when provinces really kicked into gear and celtic league(now pro12) had been running a few seasons.

PTH2009

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0507/873226-plans-for-new-round-robin-structure-for-hurling/

Interesting

So is it 1 home, 1 away and 2 neutral games ??

TCDStudent1

PTH2009 wrote: »

https://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2017/0507/873226-plans-for-new-round-robin-structure-for-hurling/

Interesting

So is it 1 home, 1 away and 2 neutral games ??

When Galway withdrew their home game proposal at congress, it was apparent something like this was in the pipeline.

blanch152

Dots1982 wrote: »

Wrote this on my blog; [url]Https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/2017/02/23/gaelic-football-identifying-addressing-the-real-problems/[/url]

Interested to hear counterpoints or agreement



The problem isn't Dublin, The problem is that there is only one Dublin and about 20 Wexford's, Clare's, Fermanagh's and Sligo's all over the country. The fix increasingly provided by those outside Dublin is spilt Dublin but this won't help the aforementioned counties.They will still be making up numbers and given no chance to compete through the business end of the championship. You can pump development grants into these counties but they can only improve to a certain ceiling because their population is so small.

The present flavour of the month that is being proposed is that the structure of the league is the best competition structure so it should be the main competition. Those proposing that have a point but at the moment players from weaker counties will not agree to competing in a secondary championship.


As stated in paragraph two my belief is that we have too many teams and players in the intercounty setup that in reality contribute little to the competition as a whole. The thought of amalgamating counties is starting to be whispered about in a very mild sort of fashion such as suggesting neighboring division 4 counties like Carlow and Wicklow should join up but as I see it to compete with the financial and population might of Dublin in the future practically every county will need to match up.

For argument's sake the teams with their total populations that I would like to see in the new competition format are as follows:

Kildare Meath Westmeath 505000
Mayo Galway 389000
Cork Kerry 689500
Clare limerick Tipperary Waterford 590000
Wexford Kilkenny Laois Carlow Wicklow 532500
Offaly longford Roscommon Leitrim cavan 291000
Dublin 1.35 million
Louth Armagh Tyrone Monaghan 543000
Antrim Derry down 1.4 million
Donegal Sligo Fermanagh 285000

.

Came across this blog post from 2014 which proposes to create divisional teams:


https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/proposal-for-restructure-of-the-gaelic-football-championship/

While it also proposes amalgamating teams, it does so on the basis of the league, creating divisional teams to compete with Division 1 teams. As you say yourself, a lot of these ideas are just current flavour of the month.

PhuckHugh

Gaelic games could go professional but more along the lines of America Football with franchises and players signed to franchises, not counties.

In hurling, you could have 12-14 franchises dotted around the country with players from all counties playing for a franchise.

Let the All Ireland run as is with players playing for their county between end of July and Mid- September (7-8 weeks)

You could have your professional games played between March and end of June and giver players 3/4 weeks with their counties.

The_Kew_Tour

The marketing of GAA is just so bad.

Why not have both League Finals on a Bank Holiday weekend for example. Have a Super Sunday of GAA so to speak where 1 Final started at 2 and the other at 4( or around those times.

Also what are people opinion of playing AI final on a Saturday evening? Think the Replays like last year Football seem have better buzz when played in evening.

Its not rocket science

Dots1982

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

The marketing of GAA is just so bad.

Why not have both League Finals on a Bank Holiday weekend for example. Have a Super Sunday of GAA so to speak where 1 Final started at 2 and the other at 4( or around those times.

Also what are people opinion of playing AI final on a Saturday evening? Think the Replays like last year Football seem have better buzz when played in evening.

Its not rocket science

The division 2/3/4 final is largely meaningless, doesn't matter how its promoted. Division 1 final was good this year for the first time in many years.

irelandrover

Dots1982 wrote: »

The division 2/3/4 final is largely meaningless, doesn't matter how its promoted. Division 1 final was good this year for the first time in many years.

As a clare supporter winning the Division 3 is not meaningless. I'd be happier to win Division 3 as Clare than challenge division 1 as an amalgamated side.

munchkin_utd

amalgamations wont happen so no point wasting time thinking about it.

The GAA thrives on local tribalism. By creating merged regional entities you'd be starting from scratch with peoples allegiances, and you cant suppose that people would care about a made up regional franchise as much as their home county.

so to throw away a half functioning system which gets crowds out in the real world, in order to chance something which might make sense on paper but not actually take off, isnt a runner.

Dots1982

irelandrover wrote: »

As a clare supporter winning the Division 3 is not meaningless. I'd be happier to win Division 3 as Clare than challenge division 1 as an amalgamated side.

Well the finals of division 3/4 were attended by, was it 5000 people, so they seem to be meaningless to most?