6 Nations 2017 General Discussion Thread

thelad95 · 22-02-2017 12:30PM

I don't see any discernible reason why Georgia can't be incorporated into the tournament and people citing political reasons are being very unfair in my opinion, if worse ever came to worse, I'm sure they wouldn't mind playing their home games elsewhere.

I think the fairest thing would be a promotion/relegation between the European Championship winners and the bottom team of the Six Nations, then the Georgians could earn their place on merit and really show how much progress they have made.

The fact of the matter is that the Georgians are essentially on a par with the Italians at the moment and it would be very inward thinking to not offer them a chance of some sort in the Six Nations within the next few years.

Podge_irl · 22-02-2017 12:49PM

thelad95 wrote: »

The fact of the matter is that the Georgians are essentially on a par with the Italians at the moment and it would be very introverted thinking to not offer them a chance of some sort in the Six Nations within the next few years.

Based on what?

The 6N is a private club essentially - they're not going to voluntarily introduce relegation from that club. Frankly, I would only want to see promotion/relegation if it was guaranteed Italy were the only team who might be relegated. I have not the slightest interest in a 6N without any of England/Wales/Scotland/France in it.

sydthebeat · 22-02-2017 12:57PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Based on what?

The 6N is a private club essentially - they're not going to voluntarily introduce relegation from that club. Frankly, I would only want to see promotion/relegation if it was guaranteed Italy were the only team who might be relegated. I have not the slightest interest in a 6N without any of England/Wales/Scotland/France in it.

a play off / promotion game would make sense, rather than an obviously unworkable "italy only" relegation rule.

if any of the other 5 were bad enough to finish last, they would still have the buffer of an extra game to ensure survival in the 6N

if they lose that as well, they deserve to be in the ENC

Podge_irl · 22-02-2017 01:30PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

a play off / promotion game would make sense, rather than an obviously unworkable "italy only" relegation rule.

if any of the other 5 were bad enough to finish last, they would still have the buffer of an extra game to ensure survival in the 6N

if they lose that as well, they deserve to be in the ENC

obviously, an "Italy only" rule would be absurd.

But I don't really care whether e.g. Scotland "deserve" to be in the ENC. I don't want a 6N with Georgia instead of them.

22-02-2017 01:33PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Based on what?

The world rankings for a start.

Bazzo · 22-02-2017 01:41PM

Madalynn Unkempt Pedestal wrote: »

The world rankings for a start.

I'm fairly sure that Italy regularly facing much much better opposition than Georgia skews the rankings a bit.

molloyjh · 22-02-2017 01:45PM

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that Italy regularly facing much much better opposition than Georgia skews the rankings a bit.

This. How often have Georgia played a tier 1 side in the last 12 months?

Podge_irl · 22-02-2017 01:49PM

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that Italy regularly facing much much better opposition than Georgia skews the rankings a bit.

Indeed. Italy will suffer from home defeats to Scotland, while Georgia make up points playing the likes of Russia. The quirks of the rugby schedule were Italy and Georgia's opponents have almost zero overlap make the rankings unhelpful in gauging their strength.

CatFromHue · 22-02-2017 01:56PM

Podge_irl wrote: »

Based on what?

The 6N is a private club essentially - they're not going to voluntarily introduce relegation from that club. Frankly, I would only want to see promotion/relegation if it was guaranteed Italy were the only team who might be relegated. I have not the slightest interest in a 6N without any of England/Wales/Scotland/France in it.

I'm not sure if any of Ire/Scot/Wal could survive financially without the 6N.

I doubt Treviso or Zebre are self funding either so they need the 6N money to survive.

pickarooney · 22-02-2017 01:58PM

molloyjh wrote: »

This. How often have Georgia played a tier 1 side in the last 12 months?

This is both the reason why they are ranked so high and the reason they're not good enough to merit ranking that high. It's a bit ludicrous. Georgia should play at least 3-4 tier 1 teams per year in one off test matches before there's even any discussion of them joining the 6N. If the 6N unions won't even humour them enough to play the odd match against them what hope of them voluntarily sacrificing a member to accommodate them in 'their' tournament?

If there was a lelos club side tearing up trees in a pan European tier 2 club competition then maybe... maybe the idea of them entering a play off with the Pro12's bottom club could be mooted but even that is a long way off, even with Zebre's on and off field problems.

Buer · 22-02-2017 02:02PM

thelad95 wrote: »

I don't see any discernible reason why Georgia can't be incorporated into the tournament and people citing political reasons are being very unfair in my opinion, if worse ever came to worse, I'm sure they wouldn't mind playing their home games elsewhere.

It's not unfair. It's common sense given the instability of the region. There are parts of Georgia that our own foreign affairs department advise travelling to for safety reasons. That's before we look at the complete clusterf*ck that is the surrounding nations. If Georgia are happy to move all of their home games, good for them but I would be surprised if they were so eager or happy to do so as you imagine.

Regardless, Italy are going badly. I'd give them another 1-2 seasons to sort themselves out and become more competitive or face a review of their situation. Georgia aren't going to be better. Scotland thumped them in the autumn. Their big achievement of the last few years was winning away in the Pacific Islands.

If we look at their results in the last 2 years, they're not near the standard of the 6N and would be, at best, the same level as Italy without bringing anywhere near the same attraction to the table for the tournament.

In the last Tblisi Cup, two years ago, our Emerging Ireland side absolutely thumped them. And that wasn't a team made up of their youth players. They had hundreds of caps between them.

If Georgia are going to be competitive, they need a base for their players where they can train together, become familiar and develop as a team. They have extremely limited time together and their players are spread everywhere. They're not at the required level to be in the 6N.

shootermacg · 22-02-2017 02:03PM

I'm not down with the relegation idea, but I'd welcome a 7 nations. This would enable Georgia make use of a larger budget. You'd have to look at adding at least one club team from Georgia into one of the bigger competitions though.

thomond2006 · 22-02-2017 02:05PM

If the ENC continues to be a two year tournament, then I would take the worst 6N team from the previous two years (on points) and enter them in a promotion-relegation playoff with the ENC winner. I think a relegation every year would be too volatile and would be fairer on the team threatened with relegation as 5 home and 5 away matches are counted.

I think Italy would improve if a kick in the ass like this is delivered. Right now they are given far too much for little return.

Buer · 22-02-2017 02:06PM

molloyjh wrote: »

This. How often have Georgia played a tier 1 side in the last 12 months?

Since the RWC, their opposition has been:

Germany
Portugal
Spain
Russia
Romania
Samoa
Tonga
Fiji
Japan
Samoa
Scotland
Belgium
Germany

Won all of them except Scotland, Samoa and Japan.

pickarooney · 22-02-2017 02:09PM

It's not as though Georgia have any right to join the 6N, harsh as that may seem. No more than Sheffield Polytechnic have a right to join the boat race. But they could wait for Cambridge to throw Oxford out and invite them...

thomond2006 · 22-02-2017 02:26PM

Italy:
15 Edoardo Padovani, 14 Giulio Bisegni, 13 Michele Campagnaro, 12 Luke McLean, 11 Giovanbattista Venditti, 10 Tommaso Allan, 9 Edoardo Gori,
8 Sergio Parisse (c), 7 Simone Favaro, 6 Abraham Steyn, 5 Andries Van Schalkwyk, 4 Marco Fuser, 3 Lorenzo Cittadini, 2 Leonardo Ghiraldini, 1 Andrea Lovotti

Replacements: 16 Ornel Gega, 17 Michele Rizzo, 18 Pietro Ceccarelli, 19 George Biagi, 20 Maxime Mata Mbanda', 21 Giorgio Bronzini, 22 Carlo Canna, 23 Tommaso Benvenuti

Bazzo · 22-02-2017 02:27PM

Campagnaro finally starts. I have no idea what the thinking behind having him on the bench for the first two rounds was.

thomond2006 · 22-02-2017 02:29PM

If Italy fall off after 60 as they are prone to do they are going to be crushed again. England's bench was fantastic against France and Wales.

The Lost Sheep · 22-02-2017 02:58PM

Buer wrote: »

It's not unfair. It's common sense given the instability of the region. There are parts of Georgia that our own foreign affairs department advise travelling to for safety reasons. That's before we look at the complete clusterf*ck that is the surrounding nations. If Georgia are happy to move all of their home games, good for them but I would be surprised if they were so eager or happy to do so as you imagine.

Regardless, Italy are going badly. I'd give them another 1-2 seasons to sort themselves out and become more competitive or face a review of their situation. Georgia aren't going to be better. Scotland thumped them in the autumn. Their big achievement of the last few years was winning away in the Pacific Islands.

If we look at their results in the last 2 years, they're not near the standard of the 6N and would be, at best, the same level as Italy without bringing anywhere near the same attraction to the table for the tournament.

In the last Tblisi Cup, two years ago, our Emerging Ireland side absolutely thumped them. And that wasn't a team made up of their youth players. They had hundreds of caps between them.

If Georgia are going to be competitive, they need a base for their players where they can train together, become familiar and develop as a team. They have extremely limited time together and their players are spread everywhere. They're not at the required level to be in the 6N.

The Goergian team that played in that tbilisi cup 2 years ago wasnt even a Georgian A team. It was considerably off their main senior side.

thomond2006 wrote: »

If the ENC continues to be a two year tournament, then I would take the worst 6N team from the previous two years (on points) and enter them in a promotion-relegation playoff with the ENC winner. I think a relegation every year would be too volatile and would be fairer on the team threatened with relegation as 5 home and 5 away matches are counted.

I think Italy would improve if a kick in the ass like this is delivered. Right now they are given far too much for little return.

ENC is played off a one year cycle now.

pickarooney wrote: »

It's not as though Georgia have any right to join the 6N, harsh as that may seem. No more than Sheffield Polytechnic have a right to join the boat race. But they could wait for Cambridge to throw Oxford out and invite them...

Why dont they? They have been the best of the rest of europe for years yet the 6Nations have been them played Georgia in full internationals about 10 times.
They have been close to beating Ireland and Scotland in world cups.

Buer · 22-02-2017 04:02PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The Goergian team that played in that tbilisi cup 2 years ago wasnt even a Georgian A team.

The above certainly isn't true.

5 of the team that started against Ireland also started against NZ in the RWC a couple of months later.

The team had literally hundreds of test caps between them and most of the starting team went to the RWC.

pickarooney · 22-02-2017 05:40PM

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

The Goergian team that played in that tbilisi cup 2 years ago wasnt even a Georgian A team. It was considerably off their main senior side.

ENC is played off a one year cycle now.

Why dont they? They have been the best of the rest of europe for years yet the 6Nations have been them played Georgia in full internationals about 10 times.
They have been close to beating Ireland and Scotland in world cups.

Because it's not an open competition with entry based on merit.

swiwi_ · 22-02-2017 06:11PM

Bazzo wrote: »

Campagnaro finally starts. I have no idea what the thinking behind having him on the bench for the first two rounds was.

Like the captain on the titanic shuffling the deck chairs.

Is Twickenham sold out to watch the slaughter?

I hope Georgia and Italy draw the same pool for Rwc 2019. Not sure if it's possible though with their respective rankings.

stephen_n · 22-02-2017 06:59PM

thomond2006 wrote: »

If Italy fall off after 60 as they are prone to do they are going to be crushed again. England's bench was fantastic against France and Wales.

What makes you think they will get to 60?

.ak · 22-02-2017 07:05PM

Bazzo wrote: »

Campagnaro finally starts. I have no idea what the thinking behind having him on the bench for the first two rounds was.

COS has always had a few ... eh, interesting selection calls, even as a pundit.

He wanted to see ROG at 10 and Sexton at 12 permanently for example...

Clegg · 22-02-2017 08:21PM

Jonathan Joseph has been dropped from the England squad for the Italy game. He hasn't been in great form attacking wise but he's still their best 13. Might get to see Daly or Te'o start against Italy at centre.

pickarooney · 22-02-2017 08:41PM

Lucky I didn't lump on 5 try Joseph!

swiwi_ · 23-02-2017 02:56AM

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that Italy regularly facing much much better opposition than Georgia skews the rankings a bit.

molloyjh wrote: »

This. How often have Georgia played a tier 1 side in the last 12 months?

Ummm Italy beat South Africa, which even though SA are not so good at the moment, would have gained Italy valuable ranking points. They are still behind Georgia, despite this.

The logic doesn't work: it's like saying that if Scotland keep beating Italy or the Pacific Nations they will move ahead of Wales, who keep losing to Australia or NZ.

To gain (or lose) points in the WR rankings, there basically has to be an unexpected result:

1) Losing to a team ranked below you
2) Defeating a team ranked above you
3) Losing by more or less than expected
4) Winning by more than expected
5) From memory, you can't lose points if you win, even if the margin is less than expected.

Italy are probably where they are because they lost to Fiji at home, cancelling out their defeat of SA.

I personally think Italy are currently a stain on top level European rugby: hopeless in the Pro 12, hopeless in the European Cup, hopeless in the 6N. A cursory glance at the points tables for any of those competitions tells you all you need to know.

If the 6N doesn't want to provide the possibility of relegation I'd prefer a return to the 5N TBH.

Edit: in fact, Italy are at an advantage to Georgia - Georgia probably can't increase their ranking any further no matter how well they do in the European competition. On the other hand, any sort of result for Italy (defined in terms of the ranking by losing by less than 15 points from memory), will gain Italy rankings points. Anyone willing to bet that Italy will get within 15 points of the other sides in the 6N 2017? Best chance is probably France at home in round 4, which would be a less valuable result, because it's a home game.

23-02-2017 06:34AM

Bazzo wrote: »

I'm fairly sure that Italy regularly facing much much better opposition than Georgia skews the rankings a bit.

Opposition strength is one of the factors involved when you calculate the rankings.

Edit, just to go further, I don't think Italy can lose ranking points at the moment for losing to any other 6N team. And I'm pretty sure Georgia can't gain any points for beating anyone ranked below Samoa.

So no, not this. It's all factored in.

English Lurker · 23-02-2017 08:02AM

swiwi_ wrote: »

Like the captain on the titanic shuffling the deck chairs.

Is Twickenham sold out to watch the slaughter?

I hope Georgia and Italy draw the same pool for Rwc 2019. Not sure if it's possible though with their respective rankings.

HQ is always sold out but whether they're to watch is another question

While I'm generally of the opinion that Jones knows his business these days, I'm somewhat nonplussed, because I'm not sure how experimenting here helps us beat you guys later on.

Buer · 23-02-2017 08:09AM

Given that Henry Slade was also included in the 24 man panel along with Daly, I'd be a little worried if I was Jonathan Joseph.

Could just be a competition between Slade and Daly to see who should be the goal kicking utility back in the match day squad but I'd see it as something more than that at this point given how quiet JJ has been in this season's tournament to date.

6 Nations 2017 General Discussion Thread

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