Louise O Neill on rape culture.

RabbleRouser2k · 18-02-2017 07:48PM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Good luck with that. Many college students go out of their way not to drink sensibly.

Yes-but is that down to lack of alcohol education, or a drinking culture? I got a pretty damn good education about alcohol as a kid. I was lucky too. Besides watching what I drink, 'mixing' drinks was something I also didn't do.

Managed to look at Vincent Browne again, regarding the discussion of the ending of consent classes.

Well, of course you got the likes of two individuals on the show saying 'of course girls know 'no means no'' with a fellow chiming in with 'but the guys need to know that'...and it's like, really? Depicting men as predators? Seriously?
There are scumbags in every gender. Not just men.

RabbleRouser2k · 18-02-2017 09:36PM

Just a nice little example of how even the most SECRET of facebook pages can be found via, ya know, evidence.

If even the mail can find something like this...well... Maybe LON can take note.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4187912/Secret-Facebook-Bad-Girls-Advice-brags-domestic-violence.html

ivytwine · 19-02-2017 11:43AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Just a nice little example of how even the most SECRET of facebook pages can be found via, ya know, evidence.

If even the mail can find something like this...well... Maybe LON can take note.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4187912/Secret-Facebook-Bad-Girls-Advice-brags-domestic-violence.html

Yeah tbh nothing you post online is deleted forever. I'm pretty sure I've heard of Facebook cooperating when required by police- even though they are very very slow when it comes to taking stuff down, I don't think they obstruct police or media.

The stuff in that article was horrific.

lazybones32 · 19-02-2017 12:59PM

FishOnABike wrote: »

I wouldn't put the blame for inaction totally at TUSLA's feet. The reports end up in front of a judge to make orders for the children's welfare.

I'm aware of instances where judges have ignored or acted against the recommendations of child welfare reports while at the same time dismissing child welfare reports as being all the same and social workers as being useless as they never do anything anyway.

It must be frustrating for social workers to have their hands tied by some of our judges who are blind to the irrationality and hypocrisy of their own views.

Widdershins wrote: »

TUSLA are legall obligated to follow up every report though. It might be that there are more serious cases ahead of those ones. Also, they might find that the reality is different to the teacher's perception, or that there was no cause for concern.

I know that's not always good enough and I think they do need to improve significantly (there were some very sad cases in the news a few years back) but imo some countries have far worse social services. In England they have a very intrusive system with adoption quotas, which I don't think the Irish have, and serious scandals that effectively amount to child snatching, while at the same time certain cases where kids were in real need were not helped.

I don't know if it's the individual social worker, the organisation, the system or the judges (or all combined) who make it ineffective but the reason I asked my cousins about these type of kids was that one primary-school girl and her mother were murdered and one cousin had taught her. The stories that flowed from that question were disheartening. There was consensus that getting the social workers involved through the school-system is a waste of time.
I know nothing of the system but I'll take the experience of those who dealt with/in it.

Widdershins · 19-02-2017 02:12PM

lazybones32 wrote: »

I don't know if it's the individual social worker, the organisation, the system or the judges (or all combined) who make it ineffective but the reason I asked my cousins about these type of kids was that one primary-school girl and her mother were murdered and one cousin had taught her. The stories that flowed from that question were disheartening. There was consensus that getting the social workers involved through the school-system is a waste of time.
I know nothing of the system but I'll take the experience of those who dealt with/in it.

That's awful and must have been very upsetting for your cousin. I assume there were some kind of warning signs before and your cousin had reported concerns so that must have been very disheartening!

I don't think teachers should have to take on the role of child protection officers when they have enough on their plates, and I don't think many ordinary parents necessarily want their children to be taught by teachers-cum-social workers either, but naturally they have a duty of care and if something's glaringly wrong then it's shocking that their concerns go unheeded sometimes.

Widdershins · 19-02-2017 06:09PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Just a nice little example of how even the most SECRET of facebook pages can be found via, ya know, evidence.

If even the mail can find something like this...well... Maybe LON can take note.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4187912/Secret-Facebook-Bad-Girls-Advice-brags-domestic-violence.html

That's horrible. The comments on the article are depressing too. It looks like there's many damaged men and women out there.

deaddonkey15 · 19-02-2017 06:25PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Just a nice little example of how even the most SECRET of facebook pages can be found via, ya know, evidence.

If even the mail can find something like this...well... Maybe LON can take note.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4187912/Secret-Facebook-Bad-Girls-Advice-brags-domestic-violence.html

Unfortunately, this sort of stuff is still very much seen as a joke and "hilarious" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3715287/You-ve-warned-Girl-creates-hilarious-video-demonstrating-guy-cheated-knifing-drilling-BITING-phallic-fruit-veg.html) by many.

RabbleRouser2k · 20-02-2017 01:21PM

Widdershins wrote: »

That's horrible. The comments on the article are depressing too. It looks like there's many damaged men and women out there.

Yep, but also proves that the UCD200 was so full of crap that LoN should be ashamed. Her main articles have become a lot 'tamer' in recent times-possibly because her recent articles have been even worse written than before, leading to the twitterati condemning her.
Possibly had her medication changed too (speculation, yes, but then again, I do know her own mental health problems are well documented. So her recent articles before now have been rather ranty). IT just goes to show that even the 'most hidden' pages are easily discovered.

homerjay2005 · 20-02-2017 04:16PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Just a nice little example of how even the most SECRET of facebook pages can be found via, ya know, evidence.

If even the mail can find something like this...well... Maybe LON can take note.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4187912/Secret-Facebook-Bad-Girls-Advice-brags-domestic-violence.html

wow, if this was a facebook page written by men, it would be world news and the outcry would be incredible.

wonder if little louise would comment on it? im sure if it was the other way around, shed already have her article written.

FishOnABike · 20-02-2017 05:22PM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

Unfortunately, this sort of stuff is still very much seen as a joke and "hilarious" (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-3715287/You-ve-warned-Girl-creates-hilarious-video-demonstrating-guy-cheated-knifing-drilling-BITING-phallic-fruit-veg.html) by many.

It does point to a culture of down playing domestic violence against men. I've never seen a similar 'good on you' type of cheerleading towards rape. I think those campaigning against rape culture are deluded by their own fanaticism.

FishOnABike · 20-02-2017 05:24PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

wow, if this was a facebook page written by men, it would be world news and the outcry would be incredible.

wonder if little louise would comment on it? im sure if it was the other way around, shed already have her article written.

Sure modern feminism is all about equality, isnt it?:rolleyes:

red ears · 20-02-2017 05:26PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

wow, if this was a facebook page written by men, it would be world news and the outcry would be incredible.

wonder if little louise would comment on it? im sure if it was the other way around, shed already have her article written.

If men had done the same they would all have been doxed by now and sacked from whatever job they had. Photos all over the papers etc.

homerjay2005 · 20-02-2017 05:39PM

weve a massive issue about domestic abuse towards men in ireland thats being completely ignored.

ive posted this before, but a good friend of mine is involved in the health industry and a female colleague of his thats involved in certain sectors says the amount of middle aged men that are seriously unhappy in their lives and suffering at the hands of their wives, is astounding.

its a hidden problem that gets ignored because nobody wants to touch it and dare suggest that men are being abused both physically and emotionally by their wives. suicide rates in the 45-54 year old categories are astounding, you are 7 times more likely to commit suicide at this agent if you are male than if you are female, yet we never hear a word about it.

RabbleRouser2k · 20-02-2017 05:59PM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

weve a massive issue about domestic abuse towards men in ireland thats being completely ignored.

ive posted this before, but a good friend of mine is involved in the health industry and a female colleague of his thats involved in certain sectors says the amount of middle aged men that are seriously unhappy in their lives and suffering at the hands of their wives, is astounding.

its a hidden problem that gets ignored because nobody wants to touch it and dare suggest that men are being abused both physically and emotionally by their wives. suicide rates in the 45-54 year old categories are astounding, you are 7 times more likely to commit suicide at this agent if you are male than if you are female, yet we never hear a word about it.

I've seen it first hand too-the domestic violence against males I mean. One, relative, male, was in hospital for a week or two because his wife (who suffers from a range of mental health disorders-doesn't allow her be abusive, however) smashed a glass bottle over his head. Another, rather than reveal the abuse, left the wife.

Then there is the artist Frank Clarke's son-he suffered two strokes, one after the other, in his 20's because his then girlfreiend/ fiance, smashed a glass bottle over his head. Yeah, he ended up in hospital, then after that in care, because he could no longer work. Still has the effects of it, naturally.
His ex was given an assault charge, something minor, and only got a few months in prison, and the rest suspended. He on the other hand, is partially paralysed. With brain damage.

I remember stating to a lecturer that the rates of domestic violence are equal among men and women-he scoffed. (Same guy who I always mention, tbh). And then a friend of mine informed me that amongst the LGBT community, the rates of domestic abuse are higher again, than in straight relationships-nothing is made of that either.

And this friend was in an abusive relationship with her ex-girlfriend. Some emotionally abusive crap too.

Outlaw Pete · 20-02-2017 07:35PM

Man gets released one day earlier than he should have........ rape culture in action of course.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/833435086515273728

py2006 · 20-02-2017 07:45PM

How on earth is that 'rape culture'?????

The_Kew_Tour · 20-02-2017 07:49PM

I do think we need to help and support rape victims and the law needs be more serious on the Guilty, but I hate the term "Rape Culture"

mzungu · 20-02-2017 08:02PM

py2006 wrote: »

How on earth is that 'rape culture'?????

Taking the usual "rape culture" hysterics out of the equation, I would like to know the exact reasons why he was released a day early. The article implies it was because there are no services at weekends, so would being released a day or two earlier apply to somebody who was in for robbery or assault if their sentences finished on a weekend?

To be honest, considering what he did, he got off very, very lightly. I would be of the view that he should have been in prison for the duration of his (light) sentence and not a second less. IMO, he should be in jail for a lot longer for what he did and I can understand why his victim is upset over it.

RabbleRouser2k · 20-02-2017 08:07PM

mzungu wrote: »

Taking the usual "rape culture" hysterics out of the equation, I would like to know the exact reasons why he was released a day early. The article implies it was because there are no services at weekends, so would being released a day or two earlier apply to somebody who was in for robbery or assault if their sentences finished on a weekend?

To be honest, considering what he did, he got off very, very lightly. I would be of the view that he should have been in prison for the duration of his (light) sentence and not a second less. IMO, he should be in jail for a lot longer for what he did and I can understand why his victim is upset over it.

The guy will forever be known as a rapist-he's pretty much doomed for life.
Yes, he may have gotten off lightly, but I think if he had been a more violent rapist, he wouldn't have...and as I say that, I find myself cringing, tbh. MAinly cos I know it to be true.
But then again, the courts tend to be jerks to rape victims, to say the least. Whether an adult or a child-branding someone a rapist/ paedo by courts seems to be enough-but a long sentence is what victims want, not a branding.

Cannot imagine, for example, Maxwell Clifford will get his PR job back-not after a conviction for indecent assault (which would have carried the charge of rape if it had occurred after 2003) when he's released.

This article below has been posted before, no doubt, but I feel it needs posting again.

http://time.com/30545/its-time-to-end-rape-culture-hysteria/

LoN also tweeted, in relation to one of her articles, that she 'likes Good porn'-in relation to how boys are watching porn from the age of 8-but then I'd have to ask, is it okay if they watch 'good porn?'

Also she tweeted out a letters page that disagreed with this article-which states gender is just 'two'.
Dear God-two letters disagree, one claiming to be a doctor with a differing opinion, I imagine many more were like 'this article makes sense'.
http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-soh-trans-feminism-anti-science-20170210-story.html

She's so predictable at this stage.

red ears · 20-02-2017 10:38PM

mzungu wrote: »

Taking the usual "rape culture" hysterics out of the equation, I would like to know the exact reasons why he was released a day early. The article implies it was because there are no services at weekends, so would being released a day or two earlier apply to somebody who was in for robbery or assault if their sentences finished on a weekend?

To be honest, considering what he did, he got off very, very lightly. I would be of the view that he should have been in prison for the duration of his (light) sentence and not a second less. IMO, he should be in jail for a lot longer for what he did and I can understand why his victim is upset over it.

Is that the case were the woman said she was asleep and he was having sex with her without her consent (rape). Did he drug her or was it when she was drunk. If not how would someone not wake up.

homerjay2005 · 20-02-2017 10:41PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I do think we need to help and support rape victims and the law needs be more serious on the Guilty, but I hate the term "Rape Culture"

its a horrible term, disgusting term in fact. and from my observations, the culture she refers to is more of an issue for woman against men than the other way around.

but again, wouldnt expect Louise to ever even contemplate that a woman would dare do anything wrong.

Ineedaname · 20-02-2017 11:11PM

red ears wrote: »

Is that the case were the woman said she was asleep and he was having sex with her without her consent (rape). Did he drug her or was it when she was drunk. If not how would someone not wake up.

She was on medication

neonsofa · 20-02-2017 11:38PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

The guy will forever be known as a rapist-he's pretty much doomed for life.
Yes, he may have gotten off lightly, but I think if he had been a more violent rapist, he wouldn't have...and as I say that, I find myself cringing, tbh. MAinly cos I know it to be true.
But then again, the courts tend to be jerks to rape victims, to say the least. Whether an adult or a child-branding someone a rapist/ paedo by courts seems to be enough-but a long sentence is what victims want, not a branding.

.

Yep, the fact he is branded a rapist is purely just a statement of fact, not a punishment in itself.

20-02-2017 11:45PM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

Yep, but also proves that the UCD200 was so full of crap that LoN should be ashamed. Her main articles have become a lot 'tamer' in recent times-possibly because her recent articles have been even worse written than before, leading to the twitterati condemning her.
Possibly had her medication changed too (speculation, yes, but then again, I do know her own mental health problems are well documented. So her recent articles before now have been rather ranty). IT just goes to show that even the 'most hidden' pages are easily discovered.

Her articles becoming tamer, I believe is due to the fact she's having a new book out soon, and probably her PR /Agent told her to knock it off, she was told a few months back to knock off the I hate men off her tagline by the TV producers after Niall Boylan I think pointed out and it seems she bothers a lot of females too....My mother and sisters despise her when she pops up on tv or they see her articles in the paper

The_Kew_Tour · 20-02-2017 11:52PM

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

My mother and sisters despise her when she pops up on tv or they see her articles in the paper

Just a question. Why is it they hate her?

It seems more women are seeing through her (thankfully), but I be interested to know why.

Id like to think its because they can see both sides of the coin and have common sense.

Sand · 21-02-2017 12:04AM

Think how most men feel about MGTOW types. I'd say most women feel the same way about first world problems feminists like LON. Both ideologies identify problems and solutions not recognised by anyone who leaves their house.

21-02-2017 12:07AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Just a question. Why is it they hate her?

It seems more women are seeing through her (thankfully), but I be interested to know why.

Id like to think its because they can see both sides of the coin and have common sense.

A whingebag, basically the same what a lot of people say here and theyre not fond of the "rape culture" line

RabbleRouser2k · 21-02-2017 12:22AM

mzungu wrote: »

Taking the usual "rape culture" hysterics out of the equation, I would like to know the exact reasons why he was released a day early. The article implies it was because there are no services at weekends, so would being released a day or two earlier apply to somebody who was in for robbery or assault if their sentences finished on a weekend?

To be honest, considering what he did, he got off very, very lightly. I would be of the view that he should have been in prison for the duration of his (light) sentence and not a second less. IMO, he should be in jail for a lot longer for what he did and I can understand why his victim is upset over it.

homerjay2005 wrote: »

its a horrible term, disgusting term in fact. and from my observations, the culture she refers to is more of an issue for woman against men than the other way around.

but again, wouldnt expect Louise to ever even contemplate that a woman would dare do anything wrong.

Well, as RAINN note-it's so unhelpful it's actually doing more harm than good. Plus, as it notes, the blame is instantly on men-like, guilty until proven innocent becomes the norm. When Lon's book wrote 'I am a liar until I prove myself honest'-I just felt it was incredibly blinkered.
You get into court, accusing someone of a crime, no matter what, you have to prove yourself to be telling the truth. It's cruel when one is the victim, it's even crueller when one is a rape victim. But what if the person accused is completely innocent?
Men are viewed as guilty without ever going to trial. When Michael Flatley was accused or rape, judgement was already made about him.
Then when the case went to court, the Judge found the person accusing him so untrustworthy, and her case so flimsy, he was acquitted. (As far as what happened Flatley stated it was consensual, even if he admitted cheating on his then fiance, Lisa Murphy).
Remember the priest who was accused, by RTE, of being a rapist who impregnated his victim, out in Africa? Most would have been ready to torture him and hang him-yet he was completely innocent. People in RTE lost their jobs for making such accusations. And he was given quite a huge payout for the accusations. But imagine if, just one person, had said 'oh, yeah, the RTE claims are totally true', people would jump to conclusions, and dear God, LoN and her crew would have been carrying torches outside his church.

mzungu wrote: »

Taking the usual "rape culture" hysterics out of the equation, I would like to know the exact reasons why he was released a day early. The article implies it was because there are no services at weekends, so would being released a day or two earlier apply to somebody who was in for robbery or assault if their sentences finished on a weekend?

To be honest, considering what he did, he got off very, very lightly. I would be of the view that he should have been in prison for the duration of his (light) sentence and not a second less. IMO, he should be in jail for a lot longer for what he did and I can understand why his victim is upset over it.

neonsofa wrote: »

Yep, the fact he is branded a rapist is purely just a statement of fact, not a punishment in itself.

No, it is not a punishment-but that label will stay with him for life. I would argue even a killer would be forgiven far quicker-look how the late late invited John Gilligan on their show. Would they invite Larry Murphy so quickly? Both have served their sentences, both are unrepentant. But one crime carries far more public disgust, than the other.

A rapist will carry a label for life-that is a punishment he should carry for life. A rapist is irredeemable.
Someone who takes a life-there could be a number of circumstances surrounding it-a fight that got out of hand, drunk drive, heat of the moment, trying to stop them hurting a loved one etc-things that will be forgiven. There are no circumstances where one can say 'oh, I accidentally raped her/ him'.

A thief, a violent assault-those are all forgiven far quicker. I know some friends of mine who fell off the wayward path in their lives. One got into vandalism (luckily avoided drink and drugs. Never touched either, mainly because everyone in his school did them. And a brother got heavy into drugs) but he was lucky, turned his life around. He was in secondary school at the time, did his LC, did a Fetac after it, and then got a degree in college. He was lucky too, because even in court, folks saw he wasn't a bad apple. Just a bit lost.

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Just a question. Why is it they hate her?

It seems more women are seeing through her (thankfully), but I be interested to know why.

Id like to think its because they can see both sides of the coin and have common sense.

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

Her articles becoming tamer, I believe is due to the fact she's having a new book out soon, and probably her PR /Agent told her to knock it off, she was told a few months back to knock off the I hate men off her tagline by the TV producers after Niall Boylan I think pointed out and it seems she bothers a lot of females too....My mother and sisters despise her when she pops up on tv or they see her articles in the paper

I am none too fond of NB, but he seems a decent, if misguided at times fellow. The unfortunate thing is, the SJW's don't allow a mistake. And you really need to look at twitter to see how he gets hammered some times by SJW's-some of whom follow LoN. He's had to block a few of em (They tweet the image as a badge of honour). Yeah, and even got a 'LoN tweet saying she loves the 'pickle'' cos objectifying men is not a problem in a third waver's eyes.
I'm glad many women are seeing through her crud.
Tho may I ask, without sounding like a creep, and just wishing to gauge ages, how old is your mom and sister?
(I just ask because I have encountered some girls with the 'feminist' mentality-and yeah, they are like late teens, early 20s-hopefully they grow out of it).

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Just a question. Why is it they hate her?

It seems more women are seeing through her (thankfully), but I be interested to know why.

Id like to think its because they can see both sides of the coin and have common sense.

I am glad to see that-I've had a debate with someone about 'rape culture' saying she believed it was 'kind of true'...but she hangs around Tumblr a lot...tumblr is just a mess of negativity towards humanity. I tried to explain that these issues affect both genders, it's not just a woman thing.

neonsofa · 21-02-2017 12:29AM

RabbleRouser2k wrote: »

No, it is not a punishment-but that label will stay with him for life. I would argue even a killer would be forgiven far quicker-look how the late late invited John Gilligan on their show. Would they invite Larry Murphy so quickly? Both have served their sentences, both are unrepentant. But one crime carries far more public disgust, than the other.

A rapist will carry a label for life-that is a punishment he should carry for life. A rapist is irredeemable.
Someone who takes a life-there could be a number of circumstances surrounding it-a fight that got out of hand, drunk drive, heat of the moment, trying to stop them hurting a loved one etc-things that will be forgiven. There are no circumstances where one can say 'oh, I accidentally raped her/ him'.

A thief, a violent assault-those are all forgiven far quicker. I know some friends of mine who fell off the wayward path in their lives. One got into vandalism (luckily avoided drink and drugs. Never touched either, mainly because everyone in his school did them. And a brother got heavy into drugs) but he was lucky, turned his life around. He was in secondary school at the time, did his LC, did a Fetac after it, and then got a degree in college. He was lucky too, because even in court, folks saw he wasn't a bad apple. Just a bit lost.

.

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure what your point is?
It's a horrible crime, and those who commit it are treated accordingly. They should also serve the time for it. They are two different things- the label and the punishment. If he doesn't want to be labelled or serve the time then it is very simple to avoid.

ivytwine · 21-02-2017 12:29AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Just a question. Why is it they hate her?

It seems more women are seeing through her (thankfully), but I be interested to know why.

Id like to think its because they can see both sides of the coin and have common sense.

I don't hate her... but I think she's entirely too glib and for multiple reasons pointed out in the thread that "rape culture" is at best a weasel word term for an incredibly nuanced set of circumstances which can lead to poor prosecution and investigation of one of society's most serious crimes. At worst, it trivialises that horrible act and is used to shut down any dissenting voices.

My mother's also not a fan, coincidentally.

I don't hate anyone, I try to let hate go as much as I can because I think it is one of the most counterproductive emotions to hold onto (and trust me, I have had people in my life worth hating). I certainly don't hate a vulnerable woman I've never met. I get frustrated with LON and her use of her public platform more than anything. She says she wants to address the structural inequalities that cause rape, and that's the first problem because rape will ALWAYS be with us. Depressing as that is, there will always be sick bastards out there. Instead of trying to make humanity better than it has never managed to be, I think she would be far better to campaign for better training for barristers, judges and gardai so they can understand the impact of these crimes, improved social worker supports, proper investigation into TUSLA (the Maurice McCabe case shows it's not fit for purpose) restitution for the magdalene women, the survivors of industrial schools and the Bethany survivors (many of which had been abused, and in the case of the last, absolutely shamefully ignored by the government). She could campaign for the restoration of the funds cut from the RCC, she could lead fundraising efforts for them, she could work to ensure every Garda station has a rape kit, she could make efforts to see that low cost counselling is available to victims of sexual and domestic violence without the means to go private, who are on long public waiting lists. She could raise funds and awareness of Bodywhys, great organisation who help those with eating disorders... I think you see where I'm going with this.

There are no end of practical steps she could take, even if that just meant writing a nuanced article on any of the above topics. Yet she does nothing of the sort. The unkind part of me suggests that this because there's nothing remotely glamorous about any of it, and it's too much like hard work when you can just regurgitate American problems and pretend we have them in Ireland.

I've seen first hand her hypocrisy on social media and to be honest I think in some ways it's more difficult for victims to speak out now- you are conscious of a "bandwagon".

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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