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NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

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Comments

  • #2432
    damienirel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 949 ✭✭✭damienirel


    Some comment alright - is he minus a brain? Some of these TDs should really think before they speak. They think by making noise it will fix the problem of a crap infrastructure and decades of under funding. Whats worse the people voted for this clown in the last election.


  • #2433
    ItHurtsWhenIP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭ItHurtsWhenIP


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    There are businesses in rural areas ...... and more to the point potential for more businesses ...... if fibre is rolled out, even though most homes do not require 1,000Mb/s.
    Hopefully the fibre roll out will encourage more businesses in rural areas with all the benefits that would bring.
    ...

    ^^^^^THIS ^^^^ ^ is most definitely the case.

    I know of several people who've had to go into Limerick to get office space, that could have operated successfully from home if they had decent (even VDSL) broadband.


  • #2434
    damienirel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 949 ✭✭✭damienirel


    Yeah no doubt this country is way behind most of europe see this post from Navi over on another thread.
    These countries are progressive and get things done, I notice that not all of them are very wealthy either, they understand the great need for good quality broadband and the edge it gives you economically as a nation. Meanwhile our bunch of clowns are still "talking" about doing something.


  • #2435
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    damienirel wrote: »
    Yeah no doubt this country is way behind most of europe see this post from Navi over on another thread.
    These countries are progressive and get things done, I notice that not all of them are very wealthy either, they understand the great need for good quality broadband and the edge it gives you economically as a nation. Meanwhile our bunch of clowns are still "talking" about doing something.

    we are not great, at least we have a plan in place to fix it but some of the biggest and most wealther nations in the world have crap broadband to most of their populations, not even as good as ours such as the UK, United States and Australia. Those countries will be waiting longer for widespread FTTH than we will.


  • #2436
    damienirel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 949 ✭✭✭damienirel


    Yeah we have a "plan" - pity that the plan is never executed. funny how we always get that excuse for our politicians who flit in and out of power, lining their pockets as they'll tell you they have a "plan" for that particular problem.


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  • #2437
    BandMember
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,784 ✭✭✭BandMember


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    There are businesses in rural areas ...... and more to the point potential for more businesses ...... if fibre is rolled out, even though most homes do not require 1,000Mb/s.
    Hopefully the fibre roll out will encourage more businesses in rural areas with all the benefits that would bring.

    As for the complaints about eir "cherry-picking commercially attractive area" ...... what else would anyone expect from a commercial entity?
    Some seem to be complaining because their competitors get in ahead of them. Tough!

    This quote from Brian Stanley is priceless

    So the Minister can do nothing about it but he should intervene anyway?
    Intervene in a commercial decision?

    What nonsense!

    Brian Stanley is a Sinn Féin T.D. Statements like this just perpetuate that partys reputation for economic incompetence and default position of grandstanding. People should be remembering "gems" like this when we go back to the polls to vote in Election '17....

    Just on that, I would urge everyone (no matter what their political allegiance, if any) to strongly emphasise to anyone they meet canvassing for votes, the need for the NBP to be followed through and preferably with an FTTH model.

    And now, back to normal programming. :cool:


  • #2438
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    damienirel wrote: »
    Yeah we have a "plan" - pity that the plan is never executed. funny how we always get that excuse for our politicians who flit in and out of power, lining their pockets as they'll tell you they have a "plan" for that particular problem.

    There's a high probability that we will have another election over the next 12 months and the 'plan' will be kicked down the road even more. Unfortunately the lack usable broadband in rural Ireland is at the very bottom of the governments concerns.


  • #2439
    damienirel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 949 ✭✭✭damienirel


    Gonzo wrote: »
    There's a high probability that we will have another election over the next 12 months and the 'plan' will be kicked down the road even more. Unfortunately the lack usable broadband in rural Ireland is at the very bottom of the governments concerns.

    Yeah I would agree with that. We're seeing plan after plan getting watered down to nothing with very little getting done even in the long term. This is gonna be a private enterprise push - Siro/Eir at least 2 companies are showing some interest it's down to the people to want it in their area enough to do something - waiting on governments will only lead to frustration.


  • #2440
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    damienirel wrote: »
    Yeah I would agree with that. We're seeing plan after plan getting watered down to nothing with very little getting done even in the long term. This is gonna be a private enterprise push - Siro/Eir at least 2 companies are showing some interest it's down to the people to want it in their area enough to do something - waiting on governments will only lead to frustration.

    such a shame we don't have a B4RN style local community groups. B4RN (Broadband For The Rural North) is a community run scheme in rural north-west England which began as one farm pulling cable to another home and it grew from there. They buy everything themselves and have everyone from kids to grandparents laying the fibre through fields to small community's and one off housing keeping costs much lower than if BT were to do it. The fiber they use is currently even faster than what Eir and Siro is providing in Ireland with speeds of 1000 download and 1000 upload as standard to all customers. Their fiber network already supports 10,000 download and business's can request those speeds if they need it. There are quite a few other community schemes in the UK modeled from the B4RN scheme. Rural Ireland could really do with these sort of schemes but I doubt anyone is prepared to do it with the NBP to be completed at some stage during our lifetimes.


  • #2441
    rob808
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,401 ✭✭✭rob808


    Gonzo wrote: »
    There's a high probability that we will have another election over the next 12 months and the 'plan' will be kicked down the road even more. Unfortunately the lack usable broadband in rural Ireland is at the very bottom of the governments concerns.
    well last election broadband was one biggest problem people were angry about.Let hope this doesn't happen and the winners are announced in june.


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  • #2442
    ItHurtsWhenIP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭ItHurtsWhenIP


    Gonzo wrote: »
    such a shame we don't have a B4RN style local community groups. B4RN (Broadband For The Rural North) is a community run scheme in rural north-west England which began as one farm pulling cable to another home and it grew from there. They buy everything themselves and have everyone from kids to grandparents laying the fibre through fields to small community's and one off housing keeping costs much lower than if BT were to do it. The fiber they use is currently even faster than what Eir and Siro is providing in Ireland with speeds of 1000 download and 1000 upload as standard to all customers. Their fiber network already supports 10,000 download and business's can request those speeds if they need it. There are quite a few other community schemes in the UK modeled from the B4RN scheme. Rural Ireland could really do with these sort of schemes but I doubt anyone is prepared to do it with the NBP to be completed at some stage during our lifetimes.

    I tried to drum up support for such a scheme in my area, but there were a couple of farmers that were not willing to let fibre run through their land ... even if they were to have dug it themselves and get credit for having done so, the way that B4RN works.

    I'm suspect that, because the idea came from England, that they would not support it. :confused: There are some people around me that don't like anything that's not from the parish (which would include me then :rolleyes:).


  • #2443
    SkepticQuark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 501 ✭✭✭SkepticQuark


    Yeah in all honesty most of rural Ireland can't do B4RN style projects because greedy farmers and the lack of community in a lot of villages. In our village you probably wouldn't be able to drum up support for a few bins on pavements...

    It's a really sad state of affairs though when you have farmers refusing to assist in community projects, the state consistently changing and extending the timeframe of their plan and companies basically deciding privately to all do the same towns and cities over and over while never looking at the potential market of over 750,000 homes without proper broadband.

    Even if there is an election coming broadband will once again be on my top piorities when it comes to who I vote for.


  • #2444
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,170 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    roddy15 wrote: »
    Yeah in all honesty most of rural Ireland can't do B4RN style projects because greedy farmers and the lack of community in a lot of villages.


    Thats because we dont have villages. Germany has villages, France has villages. Ireland has two pubs, a shop and a church with houses spread for 5km around it.

    If we had clustered dwellings the like of B4RN go from a nightmare to a single weekends work.


  • #2445
    pegasus1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭pegasus1


    ED E wrote: »
    Thats because we dont have villages. Germany has villages, France has villages. Ireland has two pubs, a shop and a church with houses spread for 5km around it.

    If we had clustered dwellings the like of B4RN go from a nightmare to a single weekends work.
    So where I am living...Its not a village???:eek::eek:
    Think you are losing it there...Ed


  • #2446
    godskitchen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭godskitchen


    The group water schemes seem to work pretty well, at least the one that covers my area does.

    I have thought about doing a B4RN type system here and am pretty sure I would get the backing needed, however the big problem is back haul.

    The nearest fibre is 8KM away and that only very recently, within the last 6 months. On top of that it's not accessible to such a project.


  • #2447
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    godskitchen wrote: »
    The group water schemes seem to work pretty well, at least the one that covers my area does.

    I have thought about doing a B4RN type system here and am pretty sure I would get the backing needed, however the big problem is back haul.

    The nearest fibre is 8KM away and that only very recently, within the last 6 months. On top of that it's not accessible to such a project.

    Our local GWS was completely rebuilt recently. I approached the committee about digging in some fibre while they were at it, in order to have a community-owned fibre network; I was even prepared to discuss flexible financing and ownership models to try to address the up-front costs.

    It didn't happen. The engineer designing the scheme balked at the idea of fibre near the water mains; wayleaves became an obstacle; some landowners started making noises about wanting financial compensation for those wayleaves; some landowners wouldn't even allow the water pipes to cross their land, never mind fibre.

    The other elephant in the room was eir's blue line project along with the NBP. I got a degree of pushback along the lines of "why bother? we'll have commercial fibre in the neighbourhood in a couple of years".

    Unfortunately, this and other experiences lead me to believe that the B4RN model just doesn't translate to Ireland.


  • #2448
    pegasus1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,490 ✭✭✭pegasus1


    With the NPB still in the near future and still going ahead..good luck in getting planning for a B4RN installation and as mentioned backhaul?


  • #2449
    godskitchen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,846 ✭✭✭godskitchen


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Our local GWS was completely rebuilt recently. I approached the committee about digging in some fibre while they were at it, in order to have a community-owned fibre network; I was even prepared to discuss flexible financing and ownership models to try to address the up-front costs.

    It didn't happen. The engineer designing the scheme balked at the idea of fibre near the water mains; wayleaves became an obstacle; some landowners started making noises about wanting financial compensation for those wayleaves; some landowners wouldn't even allow the water pipes to cross their land, never mind fibre.

    The other elephant in the room was eir's blue line project along with the NBP. I got a degree of pushback along the lines of "why bother? we'll have commercial fibre in the neighbourhood in a couple of years".

    Unfortunately, this and other experiences lead me to believe that the B4RN model just doesn't translate to Ireland.

    Yep, that could well be the way it would pan out for me too.

    I have experience of the problems right of way cause and know first hand how entitled/thick some people can be. I have had people try to sell me rights of way on land they didn't even own....


  • #2450
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Enet CEO talks up fibre and his company's ability to complete the NBP.

    https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/enet-fibre-interview-national-broadband-plan


  • #2451
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,088 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Enet is the company with the infrastructure experience, it would be a shame if that is not used for the NBP roll out.


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  • #2452
    ItHurtsWhenIP
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,196 ✭✭✭ItHurtsWhenIP


    godskitchen wrote: »
    ...
    however the big problem is back haul.

    The nearest fibre is 8KM away and that only very recently, within the last 6 months. On top of that it's not accessible to such a project.

    As far as I know B4RN ran more than 20KM of fibre to connect with backhaul. I don't have a link, but I met Barry Forde at a seminar and heard his story.


  • #2453
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    ItHurtsWhenIP wrote: »
    As far as I know B4RN ran more than 20KM of fibre to connect with backhaul. I don't have a link, but I met Barry Forde at a seminar and heard his story.

    Which in a circular fashion brings us back to Enet and their scandalous pricing for the use of certain MANs particularly in regional areas. I'm sure some of our ISP posters can confirm?


  • #2454
    9726_9726
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭9726_9726


    Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »
    Which in a circular fashion brings us back to Enet and their scandalous pricing for the use of certain MANs particularly in regional areas. I'm sure some of our ISP posters can confirm?

    Yessir....

    http://enet.ie/uploads/enet%20Permitted%20Maximum%20Pricing%20%20-%20effective%20%20from%20Novermber%201st%202015.pdf

    So basically 100M from A to B on the SAME MAN, e.g. from street A to street B in Galway would be €6000 per annum.

    1G on-MAN, point to point would be €10K per annum. That's with no internet or national backhaul, just PTP in the same town.


  • #2455
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    ItHurtsWhenIP wrote: »
    As far as I know B4RN ran more than 20KM of fibre to connect with backhaul. I don't have a link, but I met Barry Forde at a seminar and heard his story.

    they also ran fiber to a farmhouse 4km away from the nearest other house and they still only got charged £30 per month for 1000/1000. The takeup rate in many of the villages is close to 90%, they run fiber to both villages and extremely one off housing. As most of the work is voluntary, they can afford to do all this.


  • #2456
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Johnboy1951 wrote: »
    Enet is the company with the infrastructure experience, it would be a shame if that is not used for the NBP roll out.

    Enet is a company with infrastructure experience. I don't think anyone could usefully argue that eir, Vodafone or the ESB don't have infrastructure experience. In fact, if you're measuring them on that basis...
    9726_9726 wrote: »
    Yessir....

    http://enet.ie/uploads/enet%20Permitted%20Maximum%20Pricing%20%20-%20effective%20%20from%20Novermber%201st%202015.pdf

    So basically 100M from A to B on the SAME MAN, e.g. from street A to street B in Galway would be €6000 per annum.

    1G on-MAN, point to point would be €10K per annum. That's with no internet or national backhaul, just PTP in the same town.
    By contrast, the regulated price imposed on open eir for dark fibre is 26c per metre - so you could theoretically do that same 100M from A to B, with 10Gbit optics at each end (not particularly expensive to do these days), for €26 per annum.


  • #2457
    9726_9726
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭9726_9726


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Enet is a company with infrastructure experience. I don't think anyone could usefully argue that eir, Vodafone or the ESB don't have infrastructure experience. In fact, if you're measuring them on that basis...

    By contrast, the regulated price imposed on open eir for dark fibre is 26c per metre - so you could theoretically do that same 100M from A to B, with 10Gbit optics at each end (not particularly expensive to do these days), for €26 per annum.

    Ok by 100M I meant 100Mbps and by 1G I meant 1Gbps but was being lazy.


  • #2458
    damienirel
    Closed Accounts Posts: 949 ✭✭✭damienirel


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Enet is a company with infrastructure experience. I don't think anyone could usefully argue that eir, Vodafone or the ESB don't have infrastructure experience. In fact, if you're measuring them on that basis...

    By contrast, the regulated price imposed on open eir for dark fibre is 26c per metre - so you could theoretically do that same 100M from A to B, with 10Gbit optics at each end (not particularly expensive to do these days), for €26 per annum.

    They(Eir/Siro/Enet) talk about fibre as if it's very expensive - why because they want that perception out there in the public domain so that when it comes to charging us suckers for it they can be 5 times more expensive than the average EU price. It may be expensive in the short term for companies to invest but I'd bet it's way way cheaper than copper in the long term.

    Enet are a bunch of spoofers asked them if they could make it 3kms from their head office and install fibre for me, they had no interest. Meanwhile one of their mans runs about 50m from my house that's on a Eir blue line route - they're careful not to step on Eirs toes. If they went head to head on the blue line I'm on they would have at least 50 houses, and I know they're aware of it.

    https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/enet-fibre-interview-national-broadband-plan


  • #2459
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 17,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    damienirel wrote: »
    They(Eir/Siro/Enet) talk about fibre as if it's very expensive - why because they want that perception out there in the public domain so that when it comes to charging us suckers for it they can be 5 times more expensive than the average EU price. It may be expensive in the short term for companies to invest but I'd bet it's way way cheaper than copper in the long term.

    Enet are a bunch of spoofers asked them if they could make it 3kms from their head office and install fibre for me, they had no interest. Meanwhile one of their mans runs about 50m from my house that's on a Eir blue line route - they're careful not to step on Eirs toes. If they went head to head on the blue line I'm on they would have at least 50 houses, and I know they're aware of it.

    https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/enet-fibre-interview-national-broadband-plan

    The fibre itself is not that expensive, but the manhours/labour sure is. That's how community schemes like B4RN can roll out fibre relatively cheaply to small communities and one off housing using voluntary help from people in the community of all ages. When ENET/Siro/Eir/BT rollout FTTH the labour costs are massive so they choose only to route it in areas which will prove profitable in the long run.


  • #2460
    9726_9726
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭9726_9726


    damienirel wrote: »
    They(Eir/Siro/Enet) talk about fibre as if it's very expensive - why because they want that perception out there in the public domain so that when it comes to charging us suckers for it they can be 5 times more expensive than the average EU price. It may be expensive in the short term for companies to invest but I'd bet it's way way cheaper than copper in the long term.

    Enet are a bunch of spoofers asked them if they could make it 3kms from their head office and install fibre for me, they had no interest. Meanwhile one of their mans runs about 50m from my house that's on a Eir blue line route - they're careful not to step on Eirs toes. If they went head to head on the blue line I'm on they would have at least 50 houses, and I know they're aware of it.

    https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/enet-fibre-interview-national-broadband-plan

    Just to echo Gonzo, fibre cable is inexpensive. Installing it on every roadside and laneway in the state is horrifically expensive and would be even if the cable was free. Send a couple of hundred lads out for a month with machinery, planning, road closure licences and I'm sure you'd have spent the price of a house before they break a sweat.

    On one hand people scream for it, on the other they don't want to pay...


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  • #2461
    9726_9726
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭9726_9726


    damienirel wrote: »
    They(Eir/Siro/Enet) talk about fibre as if it's very expensive - why because they want that perception out there in the public domain so that when it comes to charging us suckers for it they can be 5 times more expensive than the average EU price. It may be expensive in the short term for companies to invest but I'd bet it's way way cheaper than copper in the long term.

    Enet are a bunch of spoofers asked them if they could make it 3kms from their head office and install fibre for me, they had no interest. Meanwhile one of their mans runs about 50m from my house that's on a Eir blue line route - they're careful not to step on Eirs toes. If they went head to head on the blue line I'm on they would have at least 50 houses, and I know they're aware of it.

    https://www.siliconrepublic.com/comms/enet-fibre-interview-national-broadband-plan

    If an Enet MAN runs 50m from your house you should be able to get an install for €1250 and 100Mbps to another place on the same MAN €6K per annum on a 24 month contract. You'd need an internet supply at the top end feeding it though.


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