Our nations self destruction

buried · 12-02-2017 12:53PM

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Have we no natural forests at all left?

St.Johns Wood in Roscommon is there. 7 Km of natural Irish deciduous woodland, and fine walking trails going through it. Take the N61 Roscommon road from Athlone past Kiltoom and you'll see the direction signs for it. Fantastic place to go in Spring.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 12-02-2017 02:26PM

archer22 wrote: »

It would be a great help if the few remaining hedgerows were left develop naturally.
But sadly most of them are so cut and flail beaten that if a sparrow sought shelter in them on a winter's night he would be frozen to death by morning.

The primary purpose of hedgerows is to provide a stockproof barrier to cattle and sheep. To achieve that, they have to be trimmed regularly so the top, dominant shoots are cut off which allows the shoots further down to develop sideways to provide a dense, stockproof hedge.

wakka12 · 12-02-2017 02:28PM

Hardly a nations destruction is it...we probably need more forests but theres probably bigger problems in the country at the moment

archer22 · 12-02-2017 02:37PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

The primary purpose of hedgerows is to provide a stockproof barrier to cattle and sheep. To achieve that, they have to be trimmed regularly so the top, dominant shoots are cut off which allows the shoots further down to develop sideways to provide a dense, stockproof hedge.

Well that was the original purpose, but most of the battered hedges I see now have electric fencing running along the inside.
It looks like most of the cutting and flailing is done out of a misplaced sense of neatness.
I have seen strong hedges that were 100% stock proof turned into skeletons of their former selves from overzealous use of the hedge cutters around here.

RobertKK · 12-02-2017 03:42PM

Female badgers with young cubs can attack if one gets too close.
I was bringing in the cows one morning, it was at dawn and not very bright, I could see this mound in the field, which was on a hill above me, so I went to see what it was, I got the shock of my life, I was two feet away and ere I recognised it was a badger. I stayed still as the badger stared at me for a couple of seconds before running off. It was scary.
The badger was rooting in an old cow dung for dung beetles to eat.
The department of agriculture has been culling them in my area over the past number of years, after badgers were turning up dead in fields and on the road from TB which was affecting cattle.
Since they started culling TB has not been a problem.

As for forestry, there is not an incentive to plant deciduous trees, yes the amount per acre paid is higher, you get paid for 15 years, but the length to maturity is way longer.
I am thinking of planting some forestry and it will be coniferous, and most of the land being planted is not good enough for deciduous trees.
The good land stays in agriculture for most people.

Annasopra · 12-02-2017 04:23PM

Erik Clean Skydiver wrote: »

It's not even a myth. The OP just made it up.

fake news?

Buford T. Justice XIX · 12-02-2017 04:24PM

archer22 wrote: »

Well that was the original purpose, but most of the battered hedges I see now have electric fencing running along the inside.
It looks like most of the cutting and flailing is done out of a misplaced sense of neatness.
I have seen strong hedges that were 100% stock proof turned into skeletons of their former selves from overzealous use of the hedge cutters around here.

Yeah, farmers like their patch to look well and sometimes to a misplaced degree.

One question I never hear asked is why the urban environment which is so, so similar to the rural has so little native plantings. It seems peculiar for urban dwellers to bemoan the perceived failures of rural management of the native environment when practically none of the urban environment, which is as well able to support our native flora and fauna, has native species growing.

Widdershins · 12-02-2017 05:17PM

Graces7 wrote: »

So each let us go plant a few trees...Will do here.. better light a candle that rail at the darkness..

OP I totally agree that its a disgrace. I'm doing what Graces7 said. I have friends who do it too. Even if they don't have their own place to plant, they will plant on rough urban ground, or on wild ground in the country, and hope for the best. We also do this with wildflowers. Guerilla planting.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 12-02-2017 05:25PM

Widdershins wrote: »

OP I totally agree that its a disgrace. I'm doing what Graces7 said. I have friends who do it too. Even if they don't have their own place to plant, they will plant on rough urban ground, or on wild ground in the country, and hope for the best. We also do this with wildflowers. Guerilla planting.

I would like to see more people actually do so, as many say they will but never do.
I sowed seed years back of mostly oak, hazel, chestnut, birch, pine and sycamore. I then planted up just over .75 of an acre of my garden. There is now a fine 'little' wood with wood anemones, bluebell, orchids etc and a wide variety of birds and mammals visiting. Fallen branches are log pile homes for fungi and bugs.
It takes effort though and needs group planting. Unfortunately a single tree here and there does little for our ecosystems.

Tristrams Shandied · 12-02-2017 05:41PM

"They took all the trees
Put 'em in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to see 'em "

osarusan · 12-02-2017 06:46PM

My parents planted over 3000 trees on their land about 25 years ago (as part of some scheme which was waaaay oversubscribed and the promised income never materialised).

All evergreen though.

gctest50 · 12-02-2017 06:59PM

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Unfortunately Ireland is too small to accommodate wolves but "rewilding" can work wonders for an environment.

http://blog.ted.com/video-how-wolves-can-alter-the-course-of-rivers/

Above, everyone's favourite Green crusader George Monbiot discusses how putting wolves in an environment ultimately changed the course of rivers and led to cco-equilibrium.

More like deer are destructive c***

Need to go on a massive deer culling expedition countrywide

archer22 · 12-02-2017 07:06PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Female badgers with young cubs can attack if one gets too close.
I was bringing in the cows one morning, it was at dawn and not very bright, I could see this mound in the field, which was on a hill above me, so I went to see what it was, I got the shock of my life, I was two feet away and ere I recognised it was a badger. I stayed still as the badger stared at me for a couple of seconds before running off. It was scary.
The badger was rooting in an old cow dung for dung beetles to eat.
The department of agriculture has been culling them in my area over the past number of years, after badgers were turning up dead in fields and on the road from TB which was affecting cattle.
Since they started culling TB has not been a problem.

As for forestry, there is not an incentive to plant deciduous trees, yes the amount per acre paid is higher, you get paid for 15 years, but the length to maturity is way longer.
I am thinking of planting some forestry and it will be coniferous, and most of the land being planted is not good enough for deciduous trees.
The good land stays in agriculture for most people.

So the Badger stared at you when you surprised her and she then ran off...and you considered that an attack

.

As for the TB I assume DOA culled cattle as well which might have helped stem the outbreak...looks to me like the main problem has always been Cattle to Badger infection.Given that Badgers check under old cow pats for insects.
I remember back in the 70s/ 80s when there was massive Fox snaring for their pelts....Badgers at that time were virtually wiped in many areas as they were being accidentally caught and killed in the Fox snares.
But I can't remember anybody at that time commenting on a fall off in TB in their herds.
Anyhow I believe there is a large Badger vaccination programme under way now in many areas.Results to be available in a year or so.

archer22 · 12-02-2017 07:15PM

gctest50 wrote: »

More like deer are destructive c***

Need to go on a massive deer culling expedition countrywide

Are you sure its not Horses...there seems to be quite a large bit of dung near that first tree.And the height of some of the skinning seems too high for Deer.

gctest50 · 12-02-2017 07:20PM

archer22 wrote: »

Are you sure its not Horses...there seems to be quite a large bit of dung near that first tree.And the height of some of the skinning seems too high for Deer.

you'd get diagonal teeth marks if it was ponies

there is a place for them too, right next to the potatoes and veg

RobertKK · 12-02-2017 07:21PM

archer22 wrote: »

So the Badger stared at you when you surprised her and she then ran off...and you considered that an attack .
As for the TB I assume DOA culled cattle as well which might have helped stem the outbreak...looks to me like the main problem has always been Cattle to Badger infection.Given that Badgers check under old cow pats for insects.
I remember back in the 70s/ 80s when there was massive Fox snaring for their pelts....Badgers at that time were virtually wiped in many areas as they were being accidentally caught and killed in the Fox snares.
But I can't remember anybody at that time commenting on a fall off in TB in their herds.
Anyhow I believe there is a large Badger vaccination programme under way now in many areas.Results to be available in a year or so.

Nowhere did I call that an attack. I said a female badger with cubs can attack. I was not saying I was attacked.

We had badgers dying in fields and on the road around here, I range the DOA if they anted to test the dead badgers and they said, 'is it fresh?' I said there is a smell and I was told to 'bury it'.
I didn't want a diseased badger with possible TB buried so I had a big fire and reduced it to ash, which a DOA official said to me was probably the best thing.
I have nothing against badgers, but it was the badgers who were keeping a TB problem going that my cattle had which cost me a lot, as animals would be culled, and it was going on for 2 years where my herd was restricted, then other herds around were being infected, and Johnstown castle put in a plan to cull badgers, I get a letter every year telling me how many badgers were removed.
There has been no problem since. I think a cull is necessary where a badger population is very sick with TB, with dead badgers turning up over a timeframe that suggests it is endemic in their sett, as vaccination is too late in these cases.

Yourself isit · 12-02-2017 07:25PM

Thomas kinsella blames the Brits.

http://www.musicanet.org/robokopp/eire/cillchai.htm

Widdershins · 12-02-2017 07:25PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Nowhere did I call that an attack. I said a female badger with cubs can attack. I was not saying I was attacked.

We had badgers dying in fields and on the road around here, I range the DOA if they anted to test the dead badgers and they said, 'is it fresh?' I said there is a smell and I was told to 'bury it'.
I didn't want a diseased badger with possible TB buried so I had a big fire and reduced it to ash, which a DOA official said to me was probably the best thing.
I have nothing against badgers, but it was the badgers who were keeping a TB problem going that my cattle had which cost me a lot, as animals would be culled, and it was going on for 2 years where my herd was restricted, then other herds around were being infected, and Johnstown castle put in a plan to cull badgers, I get a letter every year telling me how many badgers were removed.
There has been no problem since. I think a cull is necessary where a badger population is very sick with TB, with dead badgers turning up over a timeframe that suggests it is endemic in their sett, as vaccination is too late in these cases.

Aren't the cattle vaccinated and therefore safe from contracting Tb?

RobertKK · 12-02-2017 07:44PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Aren't the cattle vaccinated and therefore safe from contracting Tb?

No.

Cattle have to be tested at least once a year, and it usually once a year once you have no cases of TB or doubtful results from the TB test.
If you have TB the animal(s) is/are culled, and the herd is restricted, meaning one can't sell cattle to other farmers, in these cases the herd is restricted 60 days later and if clear they have to await another TB test 60 days later before the herd is declared clear.
If an animal has an inconclusive test, the animal is to be isolated and re-tested 60 days later and if clear, then all is fine, if inconclusive again or it fails the test, the animals is culled and you need two clear tests before the herd is declared clear of TB.

This has been going on since the 1950s.

foxy farmer · 12-02-2017 08:15PM

RobertKK wrote: »

No.

Cattle have to be tested at least once a year, and it usually once a year once you have no cases of TB or doubtful results from the TB test.
If you have TB the animal(s) is/are culled, and the herd is restricted, meaning one can't sell cattle to other farmers, in these cases the herd is restricted 60 days later and if clear they have to await another TB test 60 days later before the herd is declared clear.
If an animal has an inconclusive test, the animal is to be isolated and re-tested 60 days later and if clear, then all is fine, if inconclusive again or it fails the test, the animals is culled and you need two clear tests before the herd is declared clear of TB.

This has been going on since the 1950s.

And still using the same test where the animal has to be slaughtered to prove beyond doubt that they have TB.
Badgers deer wild boar birds dogs green men from Mars. Who knows how its spread. They will never get to the end of and the vets will make sure they won't. 30- 35 mill budget for it each year. The bureaucracy following it is farcical. There would be thousands unemployed if they got rid of TB. There's forests cut down to produce the amount of paper that the Dept of Ag issue in relation to TB. More waste.

archer22 · 12-02-2017 08:45PM

foxy farmer wrote: »

And still using the same test where the animal has to be slaughtered to prove beyond doubt that they have TB.
Badgers deer wild boar birds dogs green men from Mars. Who knows how its spread. They will never get to the end of and the vets will make sure they won't. 30- 35 mill budget for it each year. The bureaucracy following it is farcical. There would be thousands unemployed if they got rid of TB. There's forests cut down to produce the amount of paper that the Dept of Ag issue in relation to TB. More waste.

You have hit the nail on the head there.The whole thing has become a huge sub industry with lots of chaps having a vested interest in seeing that it never finishes.
I think its ourselves the taxpayers and the Cattle as well as the Badgers who are the victims in all this.

Widdershins · 12-02-2017 10:15PM

RobertKK wrote: »

No.

Cattle have to be tested at least once a year, and it usually once a year once you have no cases of TB or doubtful results from the TB test.
If you have TB the animal(s) is/are culled, and the herd is restricted, meaning one can't sell cattle to other farmers, in these cases the herd is restricted 60 days later and if clear they have to await another TB test 60 days later before the herd is declared clear.
If an animal has an inconclusive test, the animal is to be isolated and re-tested 60 days later and if clear, then all is fine, if inconclusive again or it fails the test, the animals is culled and you need two clear tests before the herd is declared clear of TB.

This has been going on since the 1950s.

What does the vaccine actually offer?

The whole thing sounds very stressful for farmers.

archer22 · 13-02-2017 12:50PM

Widdershins wrote: »

What does the vaccine actually offer?

The whole thing sounds very stressful for farmers.

They won't vaccinate the cattle because a vaccinated animal will give a positive TB reading on their primitive testing technology.
Which I presume also means that an Animal who has had some minor exposure to a form of TB and developed immunity will also test positive.
Then there is the problem of some animals who don't have TB, reading positive for no apparent reason

Basically the whole system is a farce.
Anyhow the farce seems set to go on forever...when the Badgers have been driven to extinction they will start blaming the Deer and that will keep it going for a further few decades...when they are gone I suppose it will be the turn of Robin's and Blackbirds

Widdershins · 13-02-2017 01:16PM

archer22 wrote: »

They won't vaccinate the cattle because a vaccinated animal will give a positive TB reading on their primitive testing technology.
Which I presume also means that an Animal who has had some minor exposure to a form of TB and developed immunity will also test positive.
Then there is the problem of some animals who don't have TB, reading positive for no apparent reason
Basically the whole system is a farce.
Anyhow the farce seems set to go on forever...when the Badgers have been driven to extinction they will start blaming the Deer and that will keep it going for a further few decades...when they are gone I suppose it will be the turn of Robin's and Blackbirds

Ah Jaysys :mad:

arkrow · 13-02-2017 01:26PM

Are farmers in on it aswell (gain somehow) or why do they let this carry on?

archer22 · 13-02-2017 01:31PM

arkrow wrote: »

Are farmers in on it aswell (gain somehow) or why do they let this carry on?

No I don't see how the farmers gain anything.
But the testing and supporting activities have generated a large industry on their own.

Buford T. Justice XIX · 13-02-2017 02:22PM

Widdershins wrote: »

Ah Jaysys :mad:

The truth is that TB in cattle is at its lowest level ever and is approaching the TB level in the general human population. The big cause of outbreaks seems to be general disturbance in the wider environment. Our recent and ongoing outbreak seems to have been caused by an EU mandated clearance of some overgrown land which disturbed the badgers.

Just keep an eye out for huge TB outbreaks if the proposed water supply from Tipperary to Dublin goes ahead. Cattle farms for 20 miles each side of the digging will have a decade of TB outbreaks until a balance is found again.

sbsquarepants · 13-02-2017 02:27PM

Erik Clean Skydiver wrote: »

And of course the OP know we did not destroy our woodland for Guinness barrels. Such rubbish!

Did too - when's the last time you seen a nice shiny aluminium tree? Each and every last one was cut down, by Arthur Guinness himself, to be melted into kegs.

FACT:mad::mad:

Buford T. Justice XIX · 13-02-2017 02:31PM

arkrow wrote: »

Are farmers in on it aswell (gain somehow) or why do they let this carry on?

Farmers gain nothing bar hardship from a TB outbreak. They are restricted from selling cattle in marts and to private sellers which may be their normal sales outlets so they may have to change to finishing cattle or selling at a large discount to permitted buyers of those cattle. Cash flow is hugely diminished and may be months/years later than normal while inputs still have to be bought and paid for whilst not knowing when the money to actually pay for them will arrive.

On the plus side,, there looks to be huge promise in genetically testing cattle for resistance to TB and other transmittable diseases so in 10 years there may be a large and growing cattle population which is resistant to TB.

archer22 · 13-02-2017 02:40PM

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Farmers gain nothing bar hardship from a TB outbreak. They are restricted from selling cattle in marts and to private sellers which may be their normal sales outlets so they may have to change to finishing cattle or selling at a large discount to permitted buyers of those cattle. Cash flow is hugely diminished and may be months/years later than normal while inputs still have to be bought and paid for whilst not knowing when the money to actually pay for them will arrive.

On the plus side,, there looks to be huge promise in genetically testing cattle for resistance to TB and other transmittable diseases so in 10 years there may be a large and growing cattle population which is resistant to TB.

What I don't understand is why there is not mandatory vaccination of calves.
I mean if they are all vaccinated they can't get TB..right?.

So then it does not matter if they read positive on this test as it can be taken as false positive in those cases.Or indeed if all are vaccinated then testing is redundant anyhow....or is that the problem!!.

Our nations self destruction

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