Breadwinners

waterfaerie · 07-02-2017 01:16PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Not judgemental at all, eh?

I specifically said I was not judgmental of people who have no choice and I stand by that. Unfortunately, the fact is that so many people truly don't have the choice because, as I also said, the basics do need to be paid for.

I don't deny that I disapprove of the attitude of people who choose to live a certain lifestyle at the expense of time with their children.

They are two separate problems, one imposed on people and one chosen by some people. Both are far too prevalent in my opinion and I think it's concerning that it has become the norm.

SAMTALK · 07-02-2017 01:20PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Not judgemental at all, eh?

. Well we mostly did because if they stayed at home solely to provide for kids, they were either religious fanatics, a bit weird or had very large family. None of them were positive reasons in our opinion.

Seems a bit judgemental there!

I stayed at home with my kids and I can assure you I am not a religious fanatic, nor weird ( as far as I know) nor had a large family

Some people think its better for the child to have a parent stay at home, some people enjoy being at home rearing their children, some people have no choice

On the other side some parents need 2 incomes or want to continue working, and some couldnt deal being at home 24/7

neonsofa · 07-02-2017 01:21PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

I can appreciate and understand the sentiments you express and your rationale for not staying at home. It is very reasonable. As I said elsewhere the set up with isolated nuclear family or single parent in their own space without communal interaction is not helpful for anyone's mental health or ability to parent.
I just can't understand why you had to throw in the bit about parents who stay at home being on facebook/phones all day, or not setting up beneficial routines for their children - it conjures a very cliched image of the careless resentful parent in their dressing gown all day moaning on facebook, and it just creates an us and them paradigm. You would not like if I threw in a cliched caricature of the working mam gadding about having coffee with her pals and gossiping all day in work while occasionally parading their princesses as accessories. It's just not useful to make caricatures of people. We all do what we see as best, and what suits us temperamentally.
I did not even have a landline at the time I raised my children, and I'm sure most who do stay home now do lots of activities with their children.
Also I don't know how people find children so boring. Yes, I got stressed sometimes, it was not perfect as life rarely is, but on the whole I found their company very interesting and amusing.

Did you even read my post and the post i quoted before getting offended at that one sentence?

I also mentioned about childcare practitioners being disinterested or the child not having friends in the creche. It was an example of a lack of quality of care, given alongside the example of me not being as good a parent if I myself were at home. It said some stay at home parents do this, as it was another example of the quality of care not being as good in some homes, in a post where I was discussing the quality of care (in either situations) being the most important factor and not the crèche versus the stay at home parent. But stay up on your high horse there if you wish.

neonsofa · 07-02-2017 01:24PM

Ms2011 wrote: »

I don’t really understand this thing with filling a child's day with activities, over stimulation can be as damaging as neglect. Being bored on occasion is beneficial & stimulates imagination. I certainly as child didn't have games or activities arranged for me, me & my friends made our own fun 99% of the time outside of paremtal intervention.

That's what the rest of my post addressed. If I were at home my child's friends would be in their own creche so she wouldn't have free play with friends. She has that in creche after all the regimented play at school. If she were at home she would just be with me constantly which wouldn't be fun for her unless I arranged activities or we went outside together.

meeeeh · 07-02-2017 01:24PM

ceadaoin. wrote: »

I don't know where you grew up but the vast majority of stay at home parents are none of those things. For most, either working and paying childcare isn't worth their while financially, or they have the means not to have to work and choose not to. Is staying home to provide for kids not a positive thing in itself? If the parents and kids are happy with the arrangement then why feel sorry for them? That's just projecting your own feelings on the matter onto others

As I explained I grew up in a country where vast majority of parents worked. I was replying to a post where it was said kids in school wished their parents wouldn't work. I had exactly the opposite experience when growing up because stay at home parents were so unusual.

I think positive thing is to provide for kids in the way we feel comfortable with. I don't believe two full time working parents are any worse at providing for kids as are the families with stay at home parents. I think each family deals with the situation in their own way, some more successfully than others. But that depends on individuals involved and not on weather there is a stay at home parent or not.

meeeeh · 07-02-2017 01:29PM

SAMTALK wrote: »

meeeeh wrote: »

Not judgemental at all, eh?

. Well we mostly did because if they stayed at home solely to provide for kids, they were either religious fanatics, a bit weird or had very large family. None of them were positive reasons in our opinion.

Seems a bit judgemental there!

I stayed at home with my kids and I can assure you I am not a religious fanatic, nor weird ( as far as I know) nor had a large family

Again those were our feelings as kids for the few we came across with stay at home parents. My point was that kids can feel very differently depending on what they are familiar with.

Autonomous Cowherd · 07-02-2017 01:35PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Did you even read my post and the post i quoted before getting offended at that one sentence?

I also mentioned about childcare practitioners being disinterested or the child not having friends in the creche. It was an example of a lack of quality of care, given alongside the example of me not being as good a parent if I myself were at home. It said some stay at home parents do this, as it was another example of the quality of care not being as good in some homes, in a post where I was discussing the quality of care (in either situations) being the most important factor and not the crèche versus the stay at home parent. But stay up on your high horse there if you wish.

Some? Can you give a percentage or some indication beyond your own anecdotal belief that and I quote
'There are many stay at home parents that are on Facebook/phone all day and don't leave the house at all or set up activities/games for the children ',
as you seem pretty sure that it is a contributing reality in the lives of some children. I think it is a caricature. BTW you used the word MANY.

I'm sitting on a chair, working on a project, in between bouts of weeding - no horse to be seen for at least a few fields.

neonsofa · 07-02-2017 01:42PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Some? Can you give a percentage or some indication beyond your own anecdotal belief that and I quote
'There are many stay at home parents that are on Facebook/phone all day and don't leave the house at all or set up activities/games for the children ',
as you seem pretty sure that it is a contributing reality in the lives of some children. I think it is a caricature. BTW you used the word MANY.

I'm sitting on a chair, working on a project, in between bouts of weeding - no horse to be seen for at least a few fields.

Ok some/many. Either way i did not say all. It was an example of stay at home parenting that does not offer quality care just like the many childcare practitioners that are disinterested and don't provide quality care either. Or the many parents who collect their children from creche and dont interact with them.This was my point. It is the quality that is important in all cases. I would have thought we'd all agree on that. I believe if you log on to Facebook they make it very handy to see, as they use the term "full time mammy" in their bio or whatever its called, and you can see a full history of their facebook usage. I don't use Facebook so I can't provide a link.

I didn't ask what you're doing but...thanks for the picture?!

Autonomous Cowherd · 07-02-2017 01:45PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Ok some/many. Either way i did not say all. It was an example of stay at home parenting that does not offer quality care just like the many childcare practitioners that are disinterested and don't provide quality care either. Or the many parents who collect their children from creche and dont interact with them.This was my point. It is the quality that is important in all cases. I would have thought we'd all agree on that. I believe if you log on to Facebook they make it very handy to see, as they use the term "full time mammy" in their bio or whatever its called, and you can see a full history of their facebook usage. I don't use Facebook so I can't provide a link.

I didn't ask what you're doing but...thanks for the picture?!

Haha I just wanted to assure you I was in no danger from high horses

Robineen · 07-02-2017 01:49PM

Ayuntamiento wrote: »

Have you seen the number of children (and adults) who die every year due to on-farm accidents? I'm specifically thinking of that poor child who died in Carlow last year:

http://www.thejournal.ie/carlow-farm-accident-2293470-Aug2015/

Actually the farm is no place for children to be running around. My family owned a big farm. I was sent to a childminders every day away from the farm so that my dad could work safely. It probably cost them lots of money but they had the sense to know it was safer for us.
He never would have allowed us near tractors or hay sheds.

It's your type of bs cavalier attitude about kids running free around a farm that makes them death traps.
In fact we never had our grandparents look after us because they were essentially old people who did not have the energy or ability to keep up with children.

Great post. I fully agree. I didn't grow up on a farm but many of my childhood friends did and we used to be running all over the farms when I'd visit. It was very normal in rural Ireland back twenty or twenty five years to be allowed to do so. When I look back now, it was so goddamn dangerous!

neonsofa · 07-02-2017 01:50PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Haha I just wanted to assure you I was in no danger from high horses

I think you're safe when securely mounted on one

(genuinely kidding, sarcasm doesn't translate well). I honestly wasn't being bitchy in my comment about sah parents, if you read my post alongside the one I quoted I was only offering the opposing view, not just dissing them but you literally took that one sentence out of context, my first few posts on this thread were saying how much admiration and respect I have for those minding kids in the home, check if you doubt that. I'm the first to admit id fail at it.

Graces7 · 07-02-2017 01:53PM

waterfaerie wrote: »

As Autonomous Cowherd already pointed out, there is a difference between sending your child to childcare for those reasons and leaving them there for the equivalent of a full time adult working week.

Also, maternity leave in this country is a mere 6 months and, unfortunately, many women feel pressured, either financially or by what is now considered to be the societal norm, to return to work after this time. Childcare is in no way beneficial or educational to a 6 month old baby and I don't think anyone could argue that it is.

I am a teacher and obviously not an expert. Everybody's situation is different. However, teachers do observe and experience children from a wide range of backgrounds and lifestyles and would have more of a broad overview of how the different situations affect children than most people would.

In terms of pre school, I think most teachers would agree that children who attend them have an easier start in school due to the social and educational benefits. However, pre school for the year before starting school, which is hugely beneficial, is not the same as creche from 6 months old onwards, which is not.

Another point someone else made earlier was about both parents working full time when the children are in school. There is a noticeable difference in these children and I often feel very sorry for them. In most but not all cases, their homework is done at creche or with the childminder, so the parents are not involved that way. Many of them even have their dinner with a childminder and only see the parents for an hour or two before bed. I have listened to many children in this situation complain to me about their lack of contact with their own parents. Children are very ego centric and tend to mainly talk about things that are on the forefront of their own minds. This subject is often brought up by them, and not in a positive way.

I'm not judgmental of the parents who are in this situation because they have no choice. Our government and the way our country functions makes it extremely difficult for people. I do think there is something wrong with society when people have no choice but to be in this situation.

As for the ones who live in enormous houses, have a new car every year or two and buy their kids the latest of every toy, tablet and gadget going, it's obvious where their priorities lie. There are a lot of people living with excess and pursuing this "lifestyle" of having everything they think they need. I think people do a certain amount of convincing themselves that they are doing it so they can give the best to their children but, to a child, your time is worth a million times more than your money.

The basics and some treats have to be paid for but the luxuries are not necessary. I think it's sad that society has evolved to a such a state where people think these luxuries are essential or more desirable than time with their children, who will grow up so fast.

Thank you for this, I was reading the thread hoping someone would touch on one element that seems to have been omitted;ie the varying relationships between children and parents in the two differing set ups; ie creche and being cared for at home.

Like you I was a teacher. And know much of what you say.As an older person, my mother was at home in my early years but where we lived then we were surrounded by family and neighbours. Folk in and out. door always open.

When we moved, I was all but ready for school and my mother went out to work. I was the only latch key kid around and it was the loneliest time. Home to an empty cold house after being used to warmth and people.

By the time my mother got home, it was almost bedtime so we never really had a good relationship and I wonder about that here. Spent almost no time with my parents.

And when I read words like maturity about a small child I wonder?

Structured play and play alone are two very different things and each has its place.

Autonomous Cowherd · 07-02-2017 01:55PM

neonsofa wrote: »

I think you're safe when securely mounted on one (genuinely kidding, sarcasm doesn't translate well). I honestly wasn't being bitchy in my comment about sah parents, if you read my post alongside the one I quoted I was only offering the opposing view, not just dissing them but you literally took that one sentence out of context, my first few posts on this thread were saying how much admiration and respect I have for those minding kids in the home, check if you doubt that. I'm the first to admit id fail at it.

Ach I know well you were not dissing. Keyboard battling, and all that shyte..:D

neonsofa · 07-02-2017 02:00PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

Ach I know well you were not dissing. Keyboard battling, and all that shyte..:D

Lucky I've no child around to distract me- creche is great for that

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 07-02-2017 02:01PM

Graces7 wrote: »

Thank you for this, I was reading the thread hoping someone would touch on one element that seems to have been omitted;ie the varying relationships between children and parents in the two differing set ups; ie creche and being cared for at home.

Like you I was a teacher. And know much of what you say.As an older person, my mother was at home in my early years but where we lived then we were surrounded by family and neighbours. Folk in and out. door always open.

When we moved, I was all but ready for school and my mother went out to work. I was the only latch key kid around and it was the loneliest time. Home to an empty cold house after being used to warmth and people.

By the time my mother got home, it was almost bedtime so we never really had a good relationship and I wonder about that here. Spent almost no time with my parents.

And when I read words like maturity about a small child I wonder?

Structured play and play alone are two very different things and each has its place.

And there are the parents I see every week who come home from work, have dinner with their children, go for a walk or play with them, read to them and spend considerable quality time with them. I see them every weekend in the parks, the woodlands and the library being a family. A child who is loved and attends a crèche or pre school is not a 'latch key child'. I have experience of children who never went to a crèche and were not socialised, found making friends at school difficult as a result, were withdrawn and frankly, I'll take many of the well adjusted crèche children before them any day.

Electric Sheep · 07-02-2017 03:42PM

Camryn Shaggy Dumpster wrote: »

And there are the parents I see every week who come home from work, have dinner with their children, go for a walk or play with them, read to them and spend considerable quality time with them. I see them every weekend in the parks, the woodlands and the library being a family. A child who is loved and attends a crèche or pre school is not a 'latch key child'. I have experience of children who never went to a crèche and were not socialised, found making friends at school difficult as a result, were withdrawn and frankly, I'll take many of the well adjusted crèche children before them any day.

I think that parents who are involved and engaging with their kids will be like that whether or not the kids go to crèche or a childminder. Those who are not, will also be like that, whatever the childcare situation.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 07-02-2017 03:44PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

I think that parents who are involved and engaging with their kids will be like that whether or not the kids go to crèche or a childminder. Those who are not, will also be like that, whatever the childcare situation.

That's an absolutely fair and accurate comment.

kyeev · 07-02-2017 03:51PM

As ever, everything in moderation seems to be the best course.

I do feel sorry for the kids who are in creche from 7 til 7 as Autonomous Cowherd mentioned. That's not fair on kids or parents. You'd have to blame work practices for that one. It's ridiculous to have to work 10 hour days.

And one thing I learned early on, is that you don't get the time back.
My eldest will be starting secondary school in a couple of years and we wonder where the time went?

Meanwhile, my youngest, who my wife stayed at home to mind, was bored out of his mind by the age of 2 and insisted he wanted to go to school with his siblings. He used to be waiting by the back door for them to come home. So we sent him to creche for a few hours a few mornings a week.

BTW, it's waaaaay harder to stay at home and mind the kids than go into work. No social interaction. Loneliness if you're not lucky enough to live near relatives/good friend. No coffee breaks.

I think in an ideal world, kids should go to creche for a few days a week and parents should go to work for a few days a week. Easier said than done though with the financial pressures...

Electric Sheep · 07-02-2017 03:54PM

kyeev wrote: »

As ever, everything in moderation seems to be the best course.

I do feel sorry for the kids who are in creche from 7 til 7 as Autonomous Cowherd mentioned. That's not fair on kids or parents. You'd have to blame work practices for that one. It's ridiculous to have to work 10 hour days.

And one thing I learned early on, is that you don't get the time back.
My eldest will be starting secondary school in a couple of years and we wonder where the time went?

Meanwhile, my youngest, who my wife stayed at home to mind, was bored out of his mind by the age of 2 and insisted he wanted to go to school with his siblings. He used to be waiting by the back door for them to come home. So we sent him to creche for a few hours a few mornings a week.

BTW, it's waaaaay harder to stay at home and mind the kids than go into work. No social interaction. Loneliness if you're not lucky enough to live near relatives/good friend. No coffee breaks.

I think in an ideal world, kids should go to creche for a few days a week and parents should go to work for a few days a week. Easier said than done though with the financial pressures...

And those with no kids should work all the hours god gives to facilitate the "few days a week" workers? Because only those with kids matter?

osarusan · 07-02-2017 03:56PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

And those with no kids should work all the hours god gives to facilitate the "few days a week" workers? Because only those with kids matter?

Good lad, shoehorn that strawman in there for yourself.

Electric Sheep · 07-02-2017 03:57PM

kyeev wrote: »

As ever, everything in moderation seems to be the best course.

I do feel sorry for the kids who are in creche from 7 til 7 as Autonomous Cowherd mentioned. That's not fair on kids or parents. You'd have to blame work practices for that one. It's ridiculous to have to work 10 hour days.

And one thing I learned early on, is that you don't get the time back.
My eldest will be starting secondary school in a couple of years and we wonder where the time went?

Meanwhile, my youngest, who my wife stayed at home to mind, was bored out of his mind by the age of 2 and insisted he wanted to go to school with his siblings. He used to be waiting by the back door for them to come home. So we sent him to creche for a few hours a few mornings a week.

BTW, it's waaaaay harder to stay at home and mind the kids than go into work. No social interaction. Loneliness if you're not lucky enough to live near relatives/good friend. No coffee breaks.

I think in an ideal world, kids should go to creche for a few days a week and parents should go to work for a few days a week. Easier said than done though with the financial pressures...

These days, the SAHMs can and do have social interaction on social media. I don't know anyone who has "coffee breaks" anymore.

Working parents do all the same things as non-working parents in addition to working. I doubt very much that working is easier.

kyeev · 07-02-2017 04:02PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

These days, the SAHMs can and do have social interaction on social media. I don't know anyone who has "coffee breaks" anymore.

Working parents do all the same things as non-working parents in addition to working. I doubt very much that working is easier.

Going to work a lot easier in my experience.
You don't get a minute to yourself at home when the kids are small. I have never felt as exhausted for those few years. I used to be the one going for naps, don't mind the kid.

And yeah, you should re-introduce yourself to coffee breaks.
Can't beat them...

neonsofa · 07-02-2017 04:21PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

These days, the SAHMs can and do have social interaction on social media. I don't know anyone who has "coffee breaks" anymore.

Working parents do all the same things as non-working parents in addition to working. I doubt very much that working is easier.

I find working a lot easier than staying at home.

07-02-2017 04:34PM

I've only read bits and pieces of this thread. In my mind there is no "right" way when it comes to being a stay at home parent or putting your child in a creche. One of the reasons I think why it causes such consternation is because any criticism is seen as a personal attack of another person's choices. A bit like the microwaveable dinner thread

As it stands now my boyfriend earns far more than me. I do however have high earning potential. I'm a bit traditional so if I had kids I would like to stay at home with them while maybe working from there a few hours a week. If I have them with himself we'll be able to do this.

Each child is different and will thrive in different environments. If a creche is best for your family then there's nothing wrong with that, if staying at home is what's needed then that's ok too. For me it really is as simple as that.

blackwhite · 07-02-2017 04:47PM

Myself and the OH-to-be both work, are both fairly independent, and both have purchased our own homes prior to getting engaged.

Both of us work in careers with potential for high earnings, but which would be fairly demanding in terms of hours and travel (and pressure).

We've decided that once one of us reaches a certain earnings point, the other will ease off - either look to move to part-time paid work or into the voluntary sector.

I think kyeev has the right idea - a situation where kids get the social interaction in creche (and parents the social interaction at work!) for a few days and are at home for other days with parent(s) would be the ideal.

misstearheus · 08-02-2017 03:37AM

OH-to-be?!? What's that when it's at home??

Graces7 · 08-02-2017 08:02AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I've only read bits and pieces of this thread. In my mind there is no "right" way when it comes to being a stay at home parent or putting your child in a creche. One of the reasons I think why it causes such consternation is because any criticism is seen as a personal attack of another person's choices. A bit like the microwaveable dinner thread

As it stands now my boyfriend earns far more than me. I do however have high earning potential. I'm a bit traditional so if I had kids I would like to stay at home with them while maybe working from there a few hours a week. If I have them with himself we'll be able to do this.

Each child is different and will thrive in different environments. If a creche is best for your family then there's nothing wrong with that, if staying at home is what's needed then that's ok too. For me it really is as simple as that.

That was dreadful. It really smacked of begrudgery. Thank you boards for the "ignore" option. My list grew on that!

Disagree though. A child is not a miniature adult. And those first five years are the only time they will be free from the system. They need them to be themselves and be .. children..Not pressured to perform and be " mature and socialised" as some have wanted.

And as some have wisely said, you never get times back.

To have a paid stranger catch your child's first smile and laugh, first faltering steps?

Such a loss.

And for what? Extra possessions?

Given that we seem to have a generation of problem teenagers? Drugs, drink, suicides?
Over and out from me.

neonsofa · 08-02-2017 09:15AM

Graces7 wrote: »

That was dreadful. It really smacked of begrudgery. Thank you boards for the "ignore" option. My list grew on that!

Disagree though. A child is not a miniature adult. And those first five years are the only time they will be free from the system. They need them to be themselves and be .. children..Not pressured to perform and be " mature and socialised" as some have wanted.

And as some have wisely said, you never get times back.

To have a paid stranger catch your child's first smile and laugh, first faltering steps?

Such a loss.

And for what? Extra possessions?

Given that we seem to have a generation of problem teenagers? Drugs, drink, suicides?
Over and out from me.

For food on the table and a roof over their head. Yknow, the stuff growing babies and children need.

I remember seeing my child smile for the first time. It was just me and her having a lovely one on one moment. It may not have been her very first time smiling (apart from the lovely smile they do from wind in their sleep!) theres no way to know unless you spend every single second watching them, but it's not like she can rememeber that, so the first time I saw her smile is what I remember, chances are if I was at home I may have missed her first smile too. Every parent rememebers their first time seeing the baby do something and they cherish those memories, child doesn't know that their actual first milestone wasn't actually that time.

The important thing is that I make her smile every day of her life and she doesn't go to bed hungry because I work hard to buy her the necessities.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 08-02-2017 10:00AM

Graces7 wrote: »

To have a paid stranger catch your child's first smile and laugh, first faltering steps?

Such a loss.

And for what? Extra possessions?
.

People have to work to pay for their homes. You know? The things we live in and have to usually pay for. People need to feed their families and give them as decent a life as possible. Extra possessions? Get real.
As for the stranger getting the smiles etc. That's trying to lay a guilt trip and ,believe me, failed miserably for any parents who have been through that phase.
A deplorable post.

neonsofa · 08-02-2017 10:06AM

Camryn Shaggy Dumpster wrote: »

People have to work to pay for their homes. You know? The things we live in and have to usually pay for. People need to feed their families and give them as decent a life as possible. Extra possessions? Get real.
As for the stranger getting the smiles etc. That's trying to lay a guilt trip and ,believe me, failed miserably for any parents who have been through that phase.
A deplorable post.

If parents were staying at home and claiming welfare there'd be people giving out about the taxpayers paying for/raising our offspring (this tends to be the term used when it comes to the taxpayers argument for some reason!), when we work to pay for everything ourselves we are told that the childcare providers are raising our children. Whatever we do we are wrong and should feel guilty!

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