Child refugees -majority to be males aged 17???

rgossip30 · 07-02-2017 11:49AM

alastair wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/66/section/56/enacted/en/html#sec56

Still remains to be seen how many will apply for family reunification the option is there .They will have access to lawyers to assist in this .
They are refereed to as unaccompanied minors and not orphans so a family/relatives are likely to exist .

alastair · 07-02-2017 12:00PM

rgossip30 wrote: »

Still remains to be seen how many will apply for family reunification the option is there .They will have access to lawyers to assist in this .

Lawers assisting them doesn't change the clear limited options available to them if they're about to turn 18. It doesn't matter what family they have if that family are excluded from the legal criteria for reunification.

07-02-2017 01:14PM

alastair wrote: »

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/66/section/56/enacted/en/html#sec56

(9) In this section and section 57 , “member of the family” means, in relation to the sponsor—

(a) where the sponsor is married, his or her spouse (provided that the marriage is subsisting on the date the sponsor made an application for international protection in the State),

(b) where the sponsor is a civil partner, his or her civil partner (provided that the civil partnership is subsisting on the date the sponsor made an application for international protection in the State),

(c) where the sponsor is, on the date of the application under subsection (1) under the age of 18 years and is not married, his or her parents and their children who, on the date of the application under subsection (1), are under the age of 18 years and are not married, or

(d) a child of the sponsor who, on the date of the application under subsection (1), is under the age of 18 years and is not married.

Hmm. A quote from Zappone.

http://www.thejournal.ie/calais-resettlement-ireland-3179600-Jan2017/

In addition to that, Túsla and my department have been working very hard to first of agree on the legal status they will have when they come and secondly then the kind of supports they will require, especially accomodation.

From the same link:

A spokesperson for independents in government said that any additional money needed will be made available from savings found in the Department of Children.
The spokesperson also said that when the migrant children turn 18 they will receive the same supports available to children in State care who turn 18.
It’s understood that once the children turn 18 they can remain in Ireland or they may decide to move on if they choose.

Meaning these minors are to be, or have been granted, as a bare minimum, subsidiary protection - but that quote strongly suggests that their refugee status has already been granted, or is to be fast-tracked.

Or:

The other option,(quite likely, imo), is that these minors are to be treated as "programme refugees"

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2015/act/66/section/59/enacted/en/html#sec59

59. (1) In this section, and subject to subsection (4), a “programme refugee” means a person to whom permission to enter and remain in the State for resettlement, or for temporary protection other than temporary protection provided for in section 60 , has been given by the Government or the Minister and whose name is entered in a register established and maintained by the Minister, whether or not such person is a refugee within the meaning of the definition of “refugee” in section 2 .

(2) During such period as he or she is entitled to remain in the State pursuant to permission given by the Government or the Minister referred to in subsection (1), sections 53 to 55 shall apply to a programme refugee as if the programme refugee is a qualified person with the modification that a permission given under section 54 may be for a specified period of less than 3 years.

(3) The Minister may, after consultation with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, enter into agreements with the High Commissioner for the reception and resettlement in the State of programme refugees.

(4) (a) A person who, on the date on which this section enters into operation, is a programme refugee within the meaning of section 24 of the Act of 1996, shall be deemed to be a programme refugee for the purposes of this section.

(b) An entry in the register referred to in section 24(1) of the Act of 1996 in respect of a person to whom paragraph (a) applies shall be deemed to be an entry in respect of him or her in the register referred to in subsection (1).

Either option makes this comment from you a lot less certain:

alastair wrote: »

It's a pretty narrow window of opportunity for most of them, if they're 17. You can only apply for reunification with your parents if you're under 18 and have your refugee status confirmed (a process that's still taking at least a year). So, unless they're married minors or have kids, there's not much chance that they have qualifying family.

alastair · 07-02-2017 01:46PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Meaning these minors are to be, or have been granted, as a bare minimum, subsidiary protection - but that quote strongly suggests that their refugee status has already been granted, or is to be fast-tracked.

The linked quotes suggest that no status has yet been established, let alone granted. Which means that they will have to go through a process. Even the 'fast-track' refugee status process is supposed to take a year. Which, if you're 17, is not going to allow for family reunification.

07-02-2017 02:03PM

alastair wrote: »

The linked quotes suggest that no status has yet been established, let alone granted. Which means that they will have to go through a process. Even the 'fast-track' refugee status process is supposed to take a year. Which, if you're 17, is not going to allow for family reunification.

Unless, of course, you're already classed as a programme refugee:

59. (1) In this section, and subject to subsection (4), a “programme refugee” means a person to whom permission to enter and remain in the State for resettlement, or for temporary protection other than temporary protection provided for in section 60 , has been given by the Government or the Minister and whose name is entered in a register established and maintained by the Minister, whether or not such person is a refugee within the meaning of the definition of “refugee” in section 2 .

(2) During such period as he or she is entitled to remain in the State pursuant to permission given by the Government or the Minister referred to in subsection (1), sections 53 to 55 shall apply to a programme refugee as if the programme refugee is a qualified person with the modification that a permission given under section 54 may be for a specified period of less than 3 years.

(3) The Minister may, after consultation with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, enter into agreements with the High Commissioner for the reception and resettlement in the State of programme refugees.

(4) (a) A person who, on the date on which this section enters into operation, is a programme refugee within the meaning of section 24 of the Act of 1996, shall be deemed to be a programme refugee for the purposes of this section.

(b) An entry in the register referred to in section 24(1) of the Act of 1996 in respect of a person to whom paragraph (a) applies shall be deemed to be an entry in respect of him or her in the register referred to in subsection (1).

alastair · 07-02-2017 02:10PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Unless, of course, you're already classed as a programme refugee:

Which, as your Zappone quote confirms - they have not already been.

troll_a_roll · 07-02-2017 02:36PM

I don't believe the Calais children are really children.
I'm basing that opinion on the experience of the UK, where the UK Home Office was humiliated by having to admit that many of their supposed children are in fact adults. It has also been the case in Germany and Sweden.

I don't agree with Zappone on this issue. Ireland should not put itself into a position where Ireland makes the same mistake as the UK made as public support for refugees could evaporate. We wouldn't be able to help anybody then.

Many people consider the people in Calais to be criminal migrants, not refugees. It is damaging to public opinion to champion the cause of the Calais children over the cause of other, perhaps more deserving, people.

rgossip30 · 07-02-2017 02:43PM

alastair wrote: »

Lawers assisting them doesn't change the clear limited options available to them if they're about to turn 18. It doesn't matter what family they have if that family are excluded from the legal criteria for reunification.

Their exact age cannot be verified so they will say they are younger .

alastair · 07-02-2017 02:50PM

rgossip30 wrote: »

Their exact age cannot be verified so they will say they are younger .

A bit late for that - the ages of the minors in question are already stated as "All of these young people are teenage boys aged 16 or 17".

rgossip30 · 07-02-2017 02:55PM

alastair wrote: »

A bit late for that - the ages of the minors in question are already stated as "All of these young people are teenage boys aged 16 or 17".

So they have 1-2 years to make the application . remember the word may in the legislation .

56. (1) A qualified person (in this section referred to as the “sponsor”) may, subject to subsection (8), make an application to the Minister for permission to be given to a member of the family of the sponsor to enter and reside in the State.

(7) The Minister may refuse to give permission to enter and reside in the State to a person referred to in subsection (4) or revoke any permission given to such a person—

alastair · 07-02-2017 03:05PM

rgossip30 wrote: »

So they have 1-2 years to make the application . remember the word may in the legislation

Only if they have been granted refugee status - and no-one is getting fast-tracked in less than a year - in fact, no asylum seeker has yet been fast-tracked within that timeframe, so you'd need to be 16, and have the process work at a pace that's not been managed to date. As I say - it's too narrow a window for most.

rgossip30 · 07-02-2017 03:07PM

alastair wrote: »

Only if they have been granted refugee status - and no-one is getting fast-tracked in less than a year - in fact, no asylum seeker has yet been fast-tracked within that timeframe, so you'd need to be 16, and have the process work at a pace that's not been managed to date. As I say - it's too narrow a window for most.

Once again got proof .

alastair · 07-02-2017 03:14PM

rgossip30 wrote: »

Once again got proof .

Of what?

rgossip30 · 07-02-2017 03:18PM

alastair wrote: »

Of what?

The time frame for a declaration of refugee status will be greater than a year for these unaccompanied minors .

alastair · 07-02-2017 03:54PM

rgossip30 wrote: »

The time frame for a declaration of refugee status is greater than a year .

Because if there was any success of fast-tracking applications, you'd have heard about it from ORAC. The clearance rates indicated in their monthly reports haven't really shifted in the last year.

http://www.orac.ie/website/orac/oracwebsite.nsf/page/orac-stats_16-en

rgossip30 · 07-02-2017 03:59PM

alastair wrote: »

Because if there was any success of fast-tracking applications, you'd have heard about it from ORAC. The clearance rates indicated in their monthly reports haven't really shifted in the last year.

http://www.orac.ie/website/orac/oracwebsite.nsf/page/orac-stats_16-en

When 90% are bogus claims it does rather clog up the process .

These unaccompanied minors are different and no information appears available .
I would think one needs to wait and see .

alastair · 07-02-2017 04:31PM

rgossip30 wrote: »

These unaccompanied minors are different and no information appears available .
I would think one needs to wait and see .

There's no evidence that they're different to any other unaccompanied minors already in the system.

07-02-2017 05:28PM

alastair wrote: »

Which, as your Zappone quote confirms - they have not already been.

Why would Zappone need to enter negotiations?

She can already bring the Calais migrants in as "programme refugees", irrespective of their status under normal refugee criteria.

Therefore, the only reason she would have for negotiating is to obtain either "full" refugee status, or to alter the time frame that these lads would be allowed to stay.

This quote suggests that she wants them to acquire full residency rights by the time they are 18:

A spokesperson for independents in government said that any additional money needed will be made available from savings found in the Department of Children.
The spokesperson also said that when the migrant children turn 18 they will receive the same supports available to children in State care who turn 18.
It’s understood that once the children turn 18 they can remain in Ireland or they may decide to move on if they choose.

Therefore, my original opinion still stands.
These lads will be allowed to apply for family re-unification. In fact, as "programme refugees, which would be the already existing legislative option given the circumstances in which they have been allowed entry to Ireland - they already can.

alastair · 07-02-2017 05:47PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Why would Zappone need to enter negotiations

Zappone has stated that the status of the minors has still to be determined - no matter how hard you try, you can't spin that into a suggestion that it has. Therefore they will need to go through a process of some sort.

Deleted User wrote: »

These lads will be allowed to apply for family re-unification.

Of course they will, assuming they get refugee status. But once they're over 18, only for their spouses and children they had at the time of their processing. Unless you reckon these minors have either of those currently on the go, that would be a pointless exercise.

07-02-2017 06:47PM

alastair wrote: »

Zappone has stated that the status of the minors has still to be determined - no matter how hard you try, you can't spin that into a suggestion that it has. Therefore they will need to go through a process of some sort.

Right. So, you're saying Zappone is basically inviting 200 people into this Country - and they've accepted that invitation - despite having refused to apply for asylum in France - based on having no legal status, whatsoever?

These lads have managed to make their way to Calais, familiarise themselves with Immigration legislation, work out that they probably wouldn't qualify for asylum in France - but you're saying they came here with no guarantees?
I don't believe that for one second.

Show me a link that proves Zappone has stated the status of the minors still has to be determined?

Because they are already legally entitled to be classed as "programme refugees", since they came here by way of an invitation by the Minister.

If Zappone is negotiating on their behalf - it is because she wants to improve the conditions. Family re-unification is part and parcel of the rights they already have as programme refugee minors.

biko · 07-02-2017 07:07PM

Migrants are very likely to claim to be children to get preferential treatment, not surprising at all.
Age tests show many children to be well above the 18yo limit

Two thirds of tested migrants in Finland and Denmark were above the age they claimed.

alastair · 07-02-2017 07:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Right. So, you're saying Zappone is basically inviting 200 people into this Country - and they've accepted that invitation - despite having refused to apply for asylum in France - based on having no legal status, whatsoever?

They're asylum seekers. We've been told this already. They don't have any legal status beyond that.

Deleted User wrote: »

Because they are already legally entitled to be classed as "programme refugees", since they came here by way of an invitation by the Minister.

And yet Zappone has made clear that their legal status has not been determined.

Deleted User wrote: »

If Zappone is negotiating on their behalf - it is because she wants to improve the conditions. Family re-unification is part and parcel of the rights they already have as programme refugee minors.

Agreed. But those would be rights of no use to them as they cannot seek parental reunification once they turn 18, and they can only seek reunification with their current spouses and children otherwise. It's fairly unlikely these minors will have spouses and children.

07-02-2017 07:28PM

alastair wrote: »

They're asylum seekers. We've been told this already. They don't have any legal status beyond that.

And yet Zappone has made clear that their legal status has not been determined.

Agreed. But those would be rights of no use to them as they cannot seek parental reunification once they turn 18, and they can only seek reunification with their current spouses and children otherwise. It's fairly unlikely these minors will have spouses and children.

Link, please.

rgossip30 · 07-02-2017 07:38PM

alastair wrote: »

There's no evidence that they're different to any other unaccompanied minors already in the system.

At present

alastair · 07-02-2017 07:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Link, please.

Túsla and my department have been working very hard to first of agree on the legal status they will have when they come and secondly then the kind of supports they will require, especially accomodation.

So - officially they do not have a determined status. That by default means they are Asylum Seekers.

alastair · 07-02-2017 07:52PM

rgossip30 wrote: »

At present

as opposed to...?

07-02-2017 08:04PM

alastair wrote: »

Agreed. But those would be rights of no use to them as they cannot seek parental reunification once they turn 18, and they can only seek reunification with their current spouses and children otherwise. It's fairly unlikely these minors will have spouses and children.

If they are already programme refugees, why would they wait until they're 18 to seek parental reunification?

They are coming at the invitation of the Minister. They have already been assessed.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/source-of-11m-to-relocate-40-minors-from-calais-not-identified-1.2932332

Department of Children officials are due to travel to France next week to assess around 20 young people, and identify which ones wish to come to Ireland. Ms Zappone said her understanding was they were all male and all aged 16 or 17.

And here's the intention regarding family reunification:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PQ-14-12-2016-84

In announcing the Programme, the Government recognised the importance of addressing the position of unaccompanied children. The relocation of unaccompanied minors is a complex and sensitive process, involving various aspects of European and domestic law, and any actions taken in relation to this vulnerable group must always have the principle of the best interests of the child and the prospect of family reunification at their centre. Ireland is committed to relocating unaccompanied minors and this has been clearly demonstrated by the recent Government decision to offer to relocate up to 200 unaccompanied minors, formerly resident in the migrant camp at Calais, to Ireland.

07-02-2017 08:12PM

alastair wrote: »

So - officially they do not have a determined status. That by default means they are Asylum Seekers.

Túsla and my department have been working very hard to first of agree on the legal status they will have when they come and secondly then the kind of supports they will require, especially accomodation.

What? Túsla don't have anything to do with determining refugee status.

We've already agreed that under existing legislation, these guys are already programme refugees. Túsla can't change that, only assess their needs.

07-02-2017 08:51PM

alastair wrote: »

Because if there was any success of fast-tracking applications, you'd have heard about it from ORAC. The clearance rates indicated in their monthly reports haven't really shifted in the last year.

http://www.orac.ie/website/orac/oracwebsite.nsf/page/orac-stats_16-en

Not ORAC, here:

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PR15000463

Minister Fitzgerald further announced that the Government has agreed to establish a network of Emergency Reception and Orientation Centres established for the initial acceptance and processing of those in need of international protection who are accepted into Ireland under the EU Programmes. Assessments and decisions on refugee status will be made in be in the Centres, within weeks.

Plenty of time to apply for family re-unification, then.

rgossip30 · 08-02-2017 11:03AM

alastair wrote: »

as opposed to...?

I know you probably a lovely fella but you have to get used to being wrong .
A retraction of your claim that unaccompanied minors will not likely get family reunification is expected.
I thought you would be in favor of these children getting family reunification as you support refugees .
You are more interested it seems in winning an argument than any support of these unfortunates..

Child refugees -majority to be males aged 17???

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