Breadwinners

06-02-2017 08:48PM

John_Rambo wrote: »

The creche kids tend to be way ahead of the grandparent minded kids when it comes to school too, they're also used to the routine of going to school, they also tend to be much healthier eaters with a more varied diet.

Thats a paragraph of fair nonsense. There is no basis at all for any of that. It's far better for a child to be minded by grand parents that be out the door to a crèche at a young age. There is nothing to be celebrated about being stuck in a routine of going to a crèche and then school and then work for most of our lives. Children still have to be got up etc and it's far nicer for them to have a few years free of the monotonous routine they will have for the rest of their lives basically.

As for diet, they eat what they are given by their parents and grand parents will generally feed them what the parents tell them to (from my experience). Going to a crèche no more means a better diet than the man in the moon.

andekwarhola · 06-02-2017 08:54PM

A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »

Then don't have kids, is the answer to that

The game's up folks. The Oracle has spoken

Can everybody hand their kids up for adoption now?

Thx

andekwarhola · 06-02-2017 08:55PM

Electric Sheep wrote: »

Heh, a close friend of mine was a bit offended when she gave up work to stay at home. Her 3 yr old really missed the crèche and her little friends for the first while. Mom felt a bit under appreciated;) but the kid soon adjusted.

Yes, yes but cortisol.

Autonomous Cowherd · 06-02-2017 08:56PM

neonsofa wrote: »

You're supporting my point. They measure the cortisol levels of pre school children. Those in creche have higher cortisol levels due to the stresses involved in interactions etc and just the general day to day of creche going. The babies at home don't have high levels as they have all their home comforts etc. When the babies from a crèche start school, they are no longer experiencing stress because they are accustomed to the routine and the environment so their cortisol levels would be low/regulated. The babies who were previously stress free at home with mam now have a shock to the system. And I'd imagine their cortisol levels would be higher for a period of time than the crèche going children at that stage. And they too acclimatise eventually. So either way, the babies go through the stress, it just starts at a different stage for each child and they all acclimatise to their routine. Kids are adaptable.

The point is not that we all won't have to face stress at some point - we will of course, and children do too. The point about raised cortisol in very young children is that it affects the actual architecture of the developing brain, and the brain develops hugely in the early years. I don't see any benefit to increasing cortisol amounts beyond what they need to be in order to do some sort of pre-emptive toughening up of a child.
Some hours of care and socialising in a creche is different from long hours every week day. At least that's what the tests show.

John_Rambo · 06-02-2017 08:58PM

Merrick Defeated Technology wrote: »

Thats a paragraph of fair nonsense. There is no basis at all for any of that.

There is. It's called experience Nox. If you're that interested talk to any teacher about it. They'll fill you in.

Merrick Defeated Technology wrote: »

It's far better for a child to be minded by grand parents that be out the door to a crèche at a young age. There is nothing to be celebrated about being stuck in a routine of going to a crèche and then school and then work for most of our lives. Children still have to be got up etc and it's far nicer for them to have a few years free of the monotonous routine they will have for the rest of their lives basically.

Creches are fun Nox. My fella loved it, he had lots of friends, games, trips, etc... He's in school now and loves playdates with his old creche friends.

Merrick Defeated Technology wrote: »

As for diet, they eat what they are given by their parents and grand parents will generally feed them what the parents tell them to (from my experience). Going to a crèche no more means a better diet than the man in the moon.

No. Grandparents tend to spoil them, cook special dinners for them etc.. Creches don't do that.

neonsofa · 06-02-2017 09:08PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

The point is not that we all won't have to face stress at some point - we will of course, and children do too. The point about raised cortisol in very young children is that it affects the actual architecture of the developing brain, and the brain develops hugely in the early years. I don't see any benefit to increasing cortisol amounts beyond what they need to be in order to do some sort of pre-emptive toughening up of a child.
Some hours of care and socialising in a creche is different from long hours every week day. At least that's what the tests show.

So does a lack of nutrients and last time I checked you had to pay for food :pac:

My point wasn't that we should do it to toughen them up cause they're gonna get stressed eventually, my point was the child's cortisol levels will be higher whenever they enter a new stressful environment regardless of their age.

Selective scientific studies and test results can back up any point you want to make. The benefits of early socialisation, regimented play, structured routine, the list is endless... you can always find studies to back up your own position. Cortisol levels may be one issue but there are pros and cons with everything. The only "right" thing is what is right for the family.

06-02-2017 09:13PM

John_Rambo wrote: »

There is. It's called experience Nox. If you're that interested talk to any teacher about it. They'll fill you in.

My family is full of teachers and never did they indicate anything like that, none of them who have children used crèches either

John_Rambo wrote: »

Creches are fun Nox. My fella loved it, he had lots of friends, games, trips, etc... He's in school now and loves playdates with his old creche friends.

The thought of being in a crèche would depress me compared to spending the first 4 years of my life out and about on the farm. While kids were playing with tractors I was starting to learn to drive real ones.

John_Rambo wrote: »

No. Grandparents tend to spoil them, cook special dinners for them etc.. Creches don't do that.

Maybe your parents spoil your kids as they don't see them very much very diffeeent when it's everyday. Parents often drop in the food or have lists of what to feed etc.

PARlance · 06-02-2017 09:15PM

John_Rambo wrote: »

No. Grandparents tend to spoil them, cook special dinners for them etc.. Creches don't do that.

They won't be spoiling them if they're minding the buggers every day.

John_Rambo · 06-02-2017 09:23PM

Merrick Defeated Technology wrote: »

My family is full of teachers and never did they indicate anything like that, none of them who have children used crèches either

So are mine. Full of teachers here. All of them agree with me. Go to the first day of school some day and you'll immediately see which are the creche kids and which are the grandparent minded ones.

Merrick Defeated Technology wrote: »

The thought of being in a crèche would depress me compared to spending the first 4 years of my life out and about on the farm. While kids were playing with tractors I was starting to learn to drive real ones.

Yeah, but you're in your thirties and your mother still washes your underwear! If you'd gone to creche you'd have grown in to a more independent man! :pac:

John_Rambo · 06-02-2017 09:24PM

PARlance wrote: »

They won't be spoiling them if they're minding the buggers every day.

Ha! Fair enough. Just going by the few friends who's grandparents mind the kids, special meals for the kids separate to the adults meals...

Electric Sheep · 06-02-2017 09:28PM

neonsofa wrote: »

So does a lack of nutrients and last time I checked you had to pay for food :pac:

My point wasn't that we should do it to toughen them up cause they're gonna get stressed eventually, my point was the child's cortisol levels will be higher whenever they enter a new stressful environment regardless of their age.

Selective scientific studies and test results can back up any point you want to make. The benefits of early socialisation, regimented play, structured routine, the list is endless... you can always find studies to back up your own position. Cortisol levels may be one issue but there are pros and cons with everything. The only "right" thing is what is right for the family.

So true - I know miserable SAHMs who would love to have a job, but the logistics of paying for childcare and the extra transportation needed mean that it is not financially viable at the moment. I know working mothers who deeply resent "having" to work to pay the bills, and who make damn sure there husband knows it. Each probably envies the other. You just have to do what you have to do to get by. Adults adjust, children adjust. By the time your child is 25 there will be no appreciable difference between those who attended a crèche and those who did not.

Widdershins · 06-02-2017 09:39PM

Blimey. They probably let them into the bed and all. Spoil 'em for life, that will.:rolleyes:

http://wqad.com/2016/02/01/new-research-ends-age-old-debate-will-you-spoil-your-baby-if-you-pick-it-up-each-time-it-cries/

Ayuntamiento · 06-02-2017 09:55PM

Merrick Defeated Technology wrote: »

My family is full of teachers and never did they indicate anything like that, none of them who have children used crèches either

The thought of being in a crèche would depress me compared to spending the first 4 years of my life out and about on the farm. While kids were playing with tractors I was starting to learn to drive real ones.

Maybe your parents spoil your kids as they don't see them very much very diffeeent when it's everyday. Parents often drop in the food or have lists of what to feed etc.

Have you seen the number of children (and adults) who die every year due to on-farm accidents? I'm specifically thinking of that poor child who died in Carlow last year:

http://www.thejournal.ie/carlow-farm-accident-2293470-Aug2015/

Actually the farm is no place for children to be running around. My family owned a big farm. I was sent to a childminders every day away from the farm so that my dad could work safely. It probably cost them lots of money but they had the sense to know it was safer for us.
He never would have allowed us near tractors or hay sheds.

It's your type of bs cavalier attitude about kids running free around a farm that makes them death traps.
In fact we never had our grandparents look after us because they were essentially old people who did not have the energy or ability to keep up with children.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 06-02-2017 10:04PM

Merrick Defeated Technology wrote: »

My family is full of teachers and never did they indicate anything like that, none of them who have children used crèches either

So is mine and they all advocate children going to a crèche and pre school for socialising, maturity, learning by play etc.

So, opinions differ. The fact that somebody is a teacher obviously doesn't make them an expert or right on this issue.

Broken Hearted Road · 06-02-2017 10:07PM

I'm approaching 35 later this year. I'm single but dipping my toes into online dating so who knows where that will take me.

Had a serious think about having babies recently. It's something I'm on the fence about. I love babies and children and get on well with them. I'm a very proud aunty and godmother too.

My wage took a hammering during the recession and that hasn't recovered. It saw me moving back home too. So my position is crap and money is poor too. I find more often than not my wage comes in and it goes out again just as quick on bills. There were some big hefty bills in January.

I wouldn't be able to afford a baby. Or more so going back to work after a baby. It wouldn't pay me to work if I had to pay out for childcare. How do other people manage this?

I would like to give my niece a cousin 😞

MonsterCookie · 06-02-2017 11:09PM

osarusan wrote: »

Imagined persecution.

Or maybe it's because this is AH and quite common for trolls to derail otherwise rational discussions???

waterfaerie · 07-02-2017 11:46AM

Camryn Shaggy Dumpster wrote: »

So is mine and they all advocate children going to a crèche and pre school for socialising, maturity, learning by play etc.

So, opinions differ. The fact that somebody is a teacher obviously doesn't make them an expert or right on this issue.

As Autonomous Cowherd already pointed out, there is a difference between sending your child to childcare for those reasons and leaving them there for the equivalent of a full time adult working week.

Also, maternity leave in this country is a mere 6 months and, unfortunately, many women feel pressured, either financially or by what is now considered to be the societal norm, to return to work after this time. Childcare is in no way beneficial or educational to a 6 month old baby and I don't think anyone could argue that it is.

I am a teacher and obviously not an expert. Everybody's situation is different. However, teachers do observe and experience children from a wide range of backgrounds and lifestyles and would have more of a broad overview of how the different situations affect children than most people would.

In terms of pre school, I think most teachers would agree that children who attend them have an easier start in school due to the social and educational benefits. However, pre school for the year before starting school, which is hugely beneficial, is not the same as creche from 6 months old onwards, which is not.

Another point someone else made earlier was about both parents working full time when the children are in school. There is a noticeable difference in these children and I often feel very sorry for them. In most but not all cases, their homework is done at creche or with the childminder, so the parents are not involved that way. Many of them even have their dinner with a childminder and only see the parents for an hour or two before bed. I have listened to many children in this situation complain to me about their lack of contact with their own parents. Children are very ego centric and tend to mainly talk about things that are on the forefront of their own minds. This subject is often brought up by them, and not in a positive way.

I'm not judgmental of the parents who are in this situation because they have no choice. Our government and the way our country functions makes it extremely difficult for people. I do think there is something wrong with society when people have no choice but to be in this situation.

As for the ones who live in enormous houses, have a new car every year or two and buy their kids the latest of every toy, tablet and gadget going, it's obvious where their priorities lie. There are a lot of people living with excess and pursuing this "lifestyle" of having everything they think they need. I think people do a certain amount of convincing themselves that they are doing it so they can give the best to their children but, to a child, your time is worth a million times more than your money.

The basics and some treats have to be paid for but the luxuries are not necessary. I think it's sad that society has evolved to a such a state where people think these luxuries are essential or more desirable than time with their children, who will grow up so fast.

Zubeneschamali · 07-02-2017 11:59AM

Broken Hearted Road wrote: »

How do other people manage this?

The traditional method is to live with the child's other parent, pool incomes and expenses, only rent one place, cook one dinner, do one shop. Works out cheaper.

pickarooney · 07-02-2017 12:19PM

Ireland had one of the longest legally mandated maternity leaves in the world. Imagine living in some backward hellhole like Papua New Guinea, Lesotho or the USA where there is 0 minimum maternity leave. You give birth on your lunch break and rush back to the office or get fired.

Tigger · 07-02-2017 12:21PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

The traditional method is to live with the child's other parent, pool incomes and expenses, only rent one place, cook one dinner, do one shop. Works out cheaper.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0FmGwUDFf0

meeeeh · 07-02-2017 12:27PM

waterfaerie wrote: »

As for the ones who live in enormous houses, have a new car every year or two and buy their kids the latest of every toy, tablet and gadget going, it's obvious where their priorities lie. There are a lot of people living with excess and pursuing this "lifestyle" of having everything they think they need. I think people do a certain amount of convincing themselves that they are doing it so they can give the best to their children but, to a child, your time is worth a million times more than your money.

The basics and some treats have to be paid for but the luxuries are not necessary. I think it's sad that society has evolved to a such a state where people think these luxuries are essential or more desirable than time with their children, who will grow up so fast.

Not judgemental at all, eh? Maybe parents in full time employment get satisfaction from the work they do. Maybe that makes them better parent. One parent staying at home was (is) the norm here, I can't remember any of my schoolmates saying how they wish one of their parents would be stay at home. In fact I remember wishing my mother wouldn't be working from home and I would have some time to myself when I was a bit older. So I could just as well feel sorry for people who had parent stay at home where I come from. Well we mostly did because if they stayed at home solely to provide for kids, they were either religious fanatics, a bit weird or had very large family. None of them were positive reasons in our opinion.

Edit: just to make clear, I am not saying that staying at home is weird and I like to work shorter hours to be home with kids after three. But just because something was predominant in society it doesn't make it the best solution for everyone. And historically it did plenty of damage to women's rights.

Autonomous Cowherd · 07-02-2017 12:38PM

meeeeh wrote: »

Not judgemental at all, eh? Maybe parents in full time employment get satisfaction from the work they do. Maybe that makes them better parent. One parent staying at home was (is) the norm here, I can't remember any of my schoolmates saying how they wish one of their parents would be stay at home. In fact I remember wishing my mother wouldn't be working from home and I would have some time to myself when I was a bit older. So I could just as well feel sorry for people who had parent stay at home where I come from. Well we mostly did because if they stayed at home solely to provide for kids, they were either religious fanatics, a bit weird or had very large family. None of them were positive reasons in our opinion.

Edit: just to make clear, I am not saying that staying at home is weird and I like to work shorter hours to be home with kids after three. But just because something was predominant in society it doesn't make it the best solution for everyone. And historically it did plenty of damage to women's rights.

You did just say staying home with children is usually because you are weird, a religious fanatic or a big producer of children. Saying you did not say it afterwards does not make it so.

meeeeh · 07-02-2017 12:46PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

You did just say staying home with children is usually because you are weird, a religious fanatic or a big producer of children. Saying you did not say it afterwards does not make it so.

I said where I come from. I am just saying that if you are living somewhere where amnost all parents are in full employment then the stay at home option is weird and not overly desirable among kids.

neonsofa · 07-02-2017 12:55PM

waterfaerie wrote: »

I am a teacher and obviously not an expert. Everybody's situation is different. However, teachers do observe and experience children from a wide range of backgrounds and lifestyles and would have more of a broad overview of how the different situations affect children than most people would.

In terms of pre school, I think most teachers would agree that children who attend them have an easier start in school due to the social and educational benefits. However, pre school for the year before starting school, which is hugely beneficial, is not the same as creche from 6 months old onwards, which is not.

Another point someone else made earlier was about both parents working full time when the children are in school. There is a noticeable difference in these children and I often feel very sorry for them. In most but not all cases, their homework is done at creche or with the childminder, so the parents are not involved that way. Many of them even have their dinner with a childminder and only see the parents for an hour or two before bed. I have listened to many children in this situation complain to me about their lack of contact with their own parents. Children are very ego centric and tend to mainly talk about things that are on the forefront of their own minds. This subject is often brought up by them, and not in a positive way.

I'm not judgmental of the parents who are in this situation because they have no choice. Our government and the way our country functions makes it extremely difficult for people. I do think there is something wrong with society when people have no choice but to be in this situation.

.

I think this point highlights how it actually comes down to the quality of the childcare and also the parenting in a lot of cases. My child loves her creche, they are like part of her family to her and she feels loved by everybody there and she gets to see her friends and play games with them until home time. She will regularly ask to go in so she can see her friends if I am on a week off or whatever. That may be different for kids with siblings though. If she was to come home after school she would have no friends to play with as the rest of them are in creche, it would just be me and her. Free play with friends is so important and school is so regimented with tables they have to sit at and a structured schedule that it is not the same as the free play she gets in her after school creche. I check her homework after creche as it stands and do reading with her before bed, and we have a small sit down dinner/supper together too even though she has dinner in creche.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't have great patience, if I was at home a day with a child I would find it difficult- not interacting with adults, not keeping my mind working as it does in work and college, things like that- throw in money worries too, I genuinely do feel my mental health would be affected in a way. I can't imagine the care and enthusiasm I could show my child would be the same as it is now when we are in a good place myself and when I spend quality time with her in the evenings and weekends. There are many stay at home parents that are on Facebook/phone all day and don't leave the house at all or set up activities/games for the children and I can't imagine that child would feel as happy as another who has quality one on one time with all the people who care for them, whether it is a parent or childcare practitioner.

Our set up is the more beneficial way for us in our family as it required in order to provide for us financially and also it is the standard of care she is getting and the feeling of love she has that is important. More hours with mam is not better if those hours are stressful for both of us and we haven't a penny and she is isolated from friends until the weekend. If she was attending a crèche where she didn't have friends or the staff were disinterested, or if she didn't get attention when she came home then I could see how that would be awful for a child and such a long day of being shifted from pillar to post, so I genuinely think it is the quality of care- regardless of who is providing it. Obviously there is no substitute for a parents love and that is not what I am trying to say but I do think the quality of care makes a huge difference in either case and it is not as simple as creche versus parent.

Zubeneschamali · 07-02-2017 12:59PM

neonsofa wrote: »

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't have great patience, if I was at home a day with a child I would find it difficult- not interacting with adults, not keeping my mind working as it does in work and college, things like that- throw in money worries too, I genuinely do feel my mental health would be affected in a way.

God be with the old days when mothers had the mental toughness to deal with being at home with the kids, with nothing to rely on bar a bottle of cooking sherry and 40 Major.

waterfaerie · 07-02-2017 01:06PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Ireland had one of the longest legally mandated maternity leaves in the world. Imagine living in some backward hellhole like Papua New Guinea, Lesotho or the USA where there is 0 minimum maternity leave. You give birth on your lunch break and rush back to the office or get fired.

It's true that is appalling but just because other places are worse off, doesn't mean we shouldn't strive to improve our own system.

Anyway, short maternity leave and a pathetic, token amount of paternity leave is just the start of the problem. There is no support or incentive whatsoever to encourage or help families to have one parent at home in the interests of their children. We have ended up with a society that consists mainly of families that have either both parents working full time and never seeing their children or else neither parent working and milking the social welfare.

ceadaoin. · 07-02-2017 01:06PM

Well we mostly did because if they stayed at home solely to provide for kids, they were either religious fanatics, a bit weird or had very large family. None of them were positive reasons in our opinion.

I don't know where you grew up but the vast majority of stay at home parents are none of those things. For most, either working and paying childcare isn't worth their while financially, or they have the means not to have to work and choose not to. Is staying home to provide for kids not a positive thing in itself? If the parents and kids are happy with the arrangement then why feel sorry for them? That's just projecting your own feelings on the matter onto others

Autonomous Cowherd · 07-02-2017 01:08PM

neonsofa wrote: »

I think this point highlights how it actually comes down to the quality of the childcare and also the parenting in a lot of cases. My child loves her creche, they are like part of her family to her and she feels loved by everybody there and she gets to see her friends and play games with them until home time. She will regularly ask to go in so she can see her friends if I am on a week off or whatever. That may be different for kids with siblings though. If she was to come home after school she would have no friends to play with as the rest of them are in creche, it would just be me and her. Free play with friends is so important and school is so regimented with tables they have to sit at and a structured schedule that it is not the same as the free play she gets in her after school creche. I check her homework after creche as it stands and do reading with her before bed, and we have a small sit down dinner/supper together too even though she has dinner in creche.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I don't have great patience, if I was at home a day with a child I would find it difficult- not interacting with adults, not keeping my mind working as it does in work and college, things like that- throw in money worries too, I genuinely do feel my mental health would be affected in a way. I can't imagine the care and enthusiasm I could show my child would be the same as it is now when we are in a good place myself and when I spend quality time with her in the evenings and weekends. There are many stay at home parents that are on Facebook/phone all day and don't leave the house at all or set up activities/games for the children and I can't imagine that child would feel as happy as another who has quality one on one time with all the people who care for them, whether it is a parent or childcare practitioner.

Our set up is the more beneficial way for us in our family as it required in order to provide for us financially and also it is the standard of care she is getting and the feeling of love she has that is important. More hours with mam is not better if those hours are stressful for both of us and we haven't a penny and she is isolated from friends until the weekend. If she was attending a crèche where she didn't have friends or the staff were disinterested, or if she didn't get attention when she came home then I could see how that would be awful for a child and such a long day of being shifted from pillar to post, so I genuinely think it is the quality of care- regardless of who is providing it. Obviously there is no substitute for a parents love and that is not what I am trying to say but I do think the quality of care makes a huge difference in either case and it is not as simple as creche versus parent.

I can appreciate and understand the sentiments you express and your rationale for not staying at home. It is very reasonable. As I said elsewhere the set up with isolated nuclear family or single parent in their own space without communal interaction is not helpful for anyone's mental health or ability to parent.
I just can't understand why you had to throw in the bit about parents who stay at home being on facebook/phones all day, or not setting up beneficial routines for their children - it conjures a very cliched image of the careless resentful parent in their dressing gown all day moaning on facebook, and it just creates an us and them paradigm. You would not like if I threw in a cliched caricature of the working mam gadding about having coffee with her pals and gossiping all day in work while occasionally parading their princesses as accessories. It's just not useful to make caricatures of people. We all do what we see as best, and what suits us temperamentally.
I did not even have a landline at the time I raised my children, and I'm sure most who do stay home now do lots of activities with their children.
Also I don't know how people find children so boring. Yes, I got stressed sometimes, it was not perfect as life rarely is, but on the whole I found their company very interesting and amusing.

Autonomous Cowherd · 07-02-2017 01:08PM

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

God be with the old days when mothers had the mental toughness to deal with being at home with the kids, with nothing to rely on bar a bottle of cooking sherry and 40 Major.

Ms2011 · 07-02-2017 01:12PM

neonsofa wrote: »

There are many stay at home parents that are on Facebook/phone all day and don't leave the house at all or set up activities/games for the children and I can't imagine that child would feel as happy as another who has quality one on one time with all the people who care for them, whether it is a parent or childcare practitioner.

I don’t really understand this thing with filling a child's day with activities, over stimulation can be as damaging as neglect. Being bored on occasion is beneficial & stimulates imagination. I certainly as child didn't have games or activities arranged for me, me & my friends made our own fun 99% of the time outside of paremtal intervention.

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