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Woman who strangled her newborn daughter to death... spared jail.

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    #62
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    infogiver wrote: »
    Your wrong again thumpette. She wasn't found guilty of murder.
    You might at least read the report before contributing to the discussion
    You've already admitted you know nothing about the case
    Now you prove you haven't even read the OP.
    Why do you want to have your POV taken seriously when it's littered with errors?

    Why do you need to be so forceful in your response? It's a discussion board not a court of law, the poster is not on trial, she gave her opinion.


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    #63
    learn_more
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭learn_more


    infogiver wrote: »
    Yes. The judge and jury should just have been shown these pics, taken before the tragedy, and no other evidence entered.
    Then they should have thrown her into the lion pit at the zoo. Isn't that right poster?

    No. Someone hasn't fully woken up yet :)


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    #64
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,231 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    incredulous
    You keep using that word. I don't think you know what it means.


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    #65
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Here's a good explanation of the crime she was guilty of

    http://www.inbrief.co.uk/court-proceedings/infanticide-and-criminal-law/


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    #66
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    neonsofa wrote: »
    Why do you need to be so forceful in your response? It's a discussion board not a court of law, the poster is not on trial, she gave her opinion.

    ...and this is my opinion, of her opinion. An opinion which doesn't even reflect the scant facts that we do have about this sad case. Is it not even a requisite that posters reflect facts and not just what they imagine happened?


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    #67
    Thumpette
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Thumpette


    infogiver wrote: »
    ...and this is my opinion, of her opinion. An opinion which doesn't even reflect the scant facts that we do have about this sad case. Is it not even a requisite that posters reflect facts and not just what they imagine happened?

    Thanks Neonsofa, actually really shocked at the personal nastiness directed at me from this thread for having an opinion.

    Funny how there is so much empathy for the woman and her potential state of mind here but absolutely none of the same empathy or understanding of how a bereaved parent like myself who had to bury my own baby might feel triggered and particularly passionate about the murder of an innocent baby.

    Anyway, please feel free to return to your morale crusade of ripping my right to an opinion apart.


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    #68
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    infogiver wrote: »
    ...and this is my opinion, of her opinion. An opinion which doesn't even reflect the scant facts that we do have about this sad case. Is it not even a requisite that posters reflect facts and not just what they imagine happened?

    It's possible to ask for this in a polite way.


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    #69
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,044 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    Thumpette wrote: »
    Thanks Neonsofa, actually really shocked at the personal nastiness directed at me from this thread for having an opinion.

    Funny how there is so much empathy for the woman and her potential state of mind here but absolutely none of the same empathy or understanding of how a bereaved parent like myself who had to bury my own baby might feel triggered and particularly passionate about the death of an innocent baby.

    Anyway, please feel free to return to your morale crusade of ripping my right to an opinion apart.

    Thumpette,
    First of all, my condolences on the death of your own baby, genuinely.
    However I don't think anyone has criticized you for that, what people are reacting to is your belief that you feel entitled to judge someone else based on your own experiences. With respect, that just isn't true. This woman has been found by a jury to have been mentally ill at the time, and your tragedy doesn't mean that hers is a fake.

    People are entitled to point that out, and I'd suggest that the hostile reaction your own rush to judgment has provoked is because other people have other experiences, and you appear to be dismissive of anything except your own story.


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    #70
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Thumpette wrote: »
    Thanks Neonsofa, actually really shocked at the personal nastiness directed at me from this thread for having an opinion.

    Funny how there is so much empathy for the woman and her potential state of mind here but absolutely none of the same empathy or understanding of how a bereaved parent like myself who had to bury my own baby might feel triggered and particularly passionate about the murder of an innocent baby.

    Anyway, please feel free to return to your morale crusade of ripping my right to an opinion apart.

    Once again your referring to murder when no such crime took place. Your also referring to a "potential " state of mind when an actual state of mind has been established in this case by mental health professionals.
    Whilst I'm sympathetic with your bereavement, I'm not sure why you think that it excuses you from being pulled up on inaccuracies in your allegations?


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    #71
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    neonsofa wrote: »
    It's possible to ask for this in a polite way.

    I really would refer you to the rules which state that you should report a post that you feel is contrary to the charter.


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    #72
    Thumpette
    Registered Users Posts: 1,185 ✭✭✭Thumpette


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Thumpette,
    First of all, my condolences on the death of your own baby, genuinely.
    However I don't think anyone has criticized you for that, what people are reacting to is your belief that you feel entitled to judge someone else based on your own experiences. With respect, that just isn't true. This woman has been found by a jury to have been mentally ill at the time, and your tragedy doesn't mean that hers is a fake.

    People are entitled to point that out, and I'd suggest that the hostile reaction your own rush to judgment has provoked is because other people have other experiences, and you appear to be dismissive of anything except your own story.

    Wow thank you for not criticising me for the death of my baby.

    I absolutely feel for the people who have spoken out about their own experiences with pnd and have thanked posts on this thread which have given that insight.

    I think my place in this thread is going no-where apart from upsetting me (and potentially others and I genuinely apologise if that is the case) so I am going to bow out.


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    #73
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Thumpette,
    First of all, my condolences on the death of your own baby, genuinely.
    However I don't think anyone has criticized you for that, what people are reacting to is your belief that you feel entitled to judge someone else based on your own experiences. With respect, that just isn't true. This woman has been found by a jury to have been mentally ill at the time, and your tragedy doesn't mean that hers is a fake.

    People are entitled to point that out, and I'd suggest that the hostile reaction your own rush to judgment has provoked is because other people have other experiences, and you appear to be dismissive of anything except your own story.

    In fairness, and i dont want to speak for that poster, but I got the impression that post was in relation to one particular post and not people debating the issue generally with her, moreso the way it was put to her in one or two posts. Fwiw I don't agree with that posters opinion, but like you've shown in your well thought out post, there is a polite and respectful way to disagree and discuss the issue rather than saying "you're wrong" etc.


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    #74
    Earthhorse
    Registered Users Posts: 14,714 ✭✭✭✭Earthhorse


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    No doubt if this happened in Ireland it would be held up as an example of how we need "safe legal abortion" available to women here so as to prevent such things happening again but yet this happened in a country where they have sure "health care" on tap.

    Given this, if all she wanted was to cover up the affair, wouldn't it have made more sense to have an abortion?
    Thumpette wrote: »
    Mainly though the fact that she concealed the whole pregnancy shows that in a premeditated way she never intended to keep this child. She didn't seek out medical support in case the pregnancy or labour went wrong (perhaps she was hoping it would as an 'out'). This wasn't a decision made in the midst of the pains of labour or in the haze of pnd- this decision, though maybe not the specifics- was set in motion the minute her pregnancy threatened to reveal her affair.

    Again, if she never intended to keep the child why didn't she just get an abortion?

    It seems to me people are either saying she suffered some form of breakdown during the birth and killed the child, in which case she was mentally ill. Or else she deliberately concealed the pregnancy with the intention of killing the child once she gave birth to it, in which case she was mentally ill.

    This case is the very definition of a tragedy. I understand why people are uncomfortable with the verdict but I don't think this case qualifies as "business as usual" for the courts.


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    #75
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,044 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    neonsofa wrote: »
    In fairness, and i dont want to speak for that poster, but I got the impression that post was in relation to one particular post and not people debating the issue generally with her, moreso the way it was put to her in one or two posts. Fwiw I don't agree with that posters opinion, but like you've shown in your well thought out post, there is a polite and respectful way to disagree and discuss the issue rather than saying "you're wrong" etc.

    Sure, but what you're doing there is back seat modding, which I believe is against the rules of the site.

    Not only that but I got quite an aggressive reply from the poster concerned to my attempt at being reasonable, more so than her reply to the person she claimed was attacking her, IMO. Which illustrates something I'm sure. :rolleyes:


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    #76
    neonsofa
    Registered Users Posts: 5,476 ✭✭✭neonsofa


    volchitsa wrote: »
    Sure, but what you're doing there is back seat modding, which I believe is against the rules of the site.

    It wasn't my intention to do so, just didn't see why that poster needed to be so forceful in their response hence me asking them why directly, but you're right it could be seen as that so will leave it there, apologies.

    volchitsa wrote: »
    Not only that but I got quite an aggressive reply from the poster concerned to my attempt at being reasonable, more so than her reply to the person she claimed was attacking her, IMO. Which illustrates something I'm sure. :rolleyes:

    I only saw that after my post. I thought your post was more than reasonable so don't understand that myself.

    Guess it's an emotive topic.


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    #77
    thee glitz
    Registered Users Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭thee glitz


    cnocbui wrote: »
    If it was a psychosis triggered by the hormonal and chemical turmoil of pregnancy and birth, it would be self-correcting as things settle down to normal. No need for that nonsense.

    And that's grand then ye? Oh no she's lost the plot and killed her baby but that's the cure so nothing to see here... I think she was just mental anyway. Not once in 9 months did she think to report her pregnancy, make arrangements with a hospital, go for a scan etc. The chances are she wouldn't have been able to do what she did do if she was on a hospital ward.


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    #78
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Got away with it??

    Maybe she didn't go to prison but I'd imagine the emotional and psychological turmoil she'll likely go through for the rest of her life will be punishment enough?

    You're right. Release all the murderers please. They're already punished enough.


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    #79
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    Why is this news to you?

    Take a look across the punishments for serious crimes. Women always do less, and do their time in better facilties.

    Take Mountjoy and the Dochas for eg. Mountjoy cram cells and the prisoners still slop out.



    In the Joy, they shower together. This where many men have their first gay experience.

    So ill informed and simply untrue. Mountjoy has had single cells for 5 years now and all cells have their own toilets and running water. Slopping out is done with, doesn't exist anymore. Also, the gay experiences of the showers is news to me. Having worked in the prison service for near ten years, have never heard one complaint of that nature, nor have any of my colleagues.


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    #80
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Omackeral wrote: »
    You're right. Release all the murderers please. They're already punished enough.

    No, nobody is saying that.

    This is why we have courts - to judge such matters dispassionately and impose appropriate punishments, taking into account all the facts, rather than punishments based on populism.

    And just so you're aware the principle of 'enough' is firmly embedded in the law - after all very few murders get a whole life term, and even where they do get a lengthy sentence of incarceration there is always the possibility of part of a sentence being remitted.

    I'm all for retribution being part of the penal model of the country, and while you may argue we're overly focused on the other 'Rs' (reform, rehabilitation) there's plenty of other countries, the US being a prime example, who have gone down the route of giving primacy to retribution with nothing but growing prison populations and accelerating rates of recidivism to show for it.


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    #81
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Omackeral wrote: »
    So ill informed and simply untrue. Mountjoy has had single cells for 5 years now and all cells have their own toilets and running water. Slopping out is done with, doesn't exist anymore. Also, the gay experiences of the showers is news to me. Having worked in the prison service for near ten years, have never heard one complaint of that nature, nor have any of my colleagues.

    Yes, because, historically, reporting a fellow inmate to the prison authorities has always been demonstrably in the best interest of the victim.


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    #82
    Robineen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Robineen


    The original post does throw up questions but it's a shame that some people in the thread seem unwilling to give any consideration to the reasons why that judgement was reached. It could indeed be just plain unfair that she did not receive a custodial sentence but isn't it best to read up on the case and the whole thought behind infanticide before making a beeline for whataboutery straight away?

    And the OP also shoehorned in something about the issue of abortion in Ireland, which was odd. :confused:


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    #83
    mdwexford
    Registered Users Posts: 11,274 ✭✭✭✭mdwexford


    Yeah living with the guilt is punishment enough.

    60 days rehab seems a fair sentence.

    People are so brainwashed into believing this rubbish.
    Infanticide, what a load of crap.


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    #84
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Yes, because, historically, reporting a fellow inmate to the prison authorities has always been demonstrably in the best interest of the victim.

    Saying the prison showers is where many men have their first gay experiences is based on what then? The prison culture over here is far different to US Penitentiaries or the movies. Anyway, it's off topic, just grinds my gears when people present things as facts when they're not e.g. the slopping out and the overcrowded cells.


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    #85
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    Omackeral wrote: »
    Saying the prison showers is where many men have their first gay experiences is based on what then? The prison culture over here is far different to US Penitentiaries or the movies. Anyway, it's off topic, just grinds my gears when people present things as facts when they're not e.g. the slopping out and the overcrowded cells.

    Hey, I've zero experience of prisons and hope it remains that way.

    I'm just simply saying that if the basis for you saying that sort of activity doesn't go on is a lack of reports to the prison authorities then it's flawed data - are inmates really going to complain about other inmates?

    Maybe they do, I don't know. As I said I've zero experience of that environment but my sense is your life expectancy and heath status are likely negatively correlated with your level and frequency of engagement with prison authorities to report misbehaviour, misdeeds and crimes committed by fellow inmates.


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    #86
    Robineen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Robineen


    Ellie2008 wrote: »
    People keep citing post-natal depression, I'm assuming the court found the woman suffered from post-partum psychosis, a much more serious illness which is much more unusual than post-natal depression.
    Women are know to have delusions that the baby is the devil, voices order them to flush the baby down the toilet that type of thing...

    I feel people need to accept that it is possible to lose your sanity. If you didn't have the mental capacity to commit the crime you shouldn't IMO be jailed for it.
    I understand that a baby is dead, punishing a mother who acted under delusions achieves nothing & would be morally wrong IMO.

    Great post. Sadly people have A Point To MakeTM so it might have little impact.


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    #87
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    Omackeral wrote: »
    You're right. Release all the murderers please. They're already punished enough.

    But this woman wasn't convicted of murder so your talking nonsense


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    #88
    Robineen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 300 ✭✭Robineen


    volchitsa wrote: »
    BTW, the implication by the OP and a couple of posters here that there is a gender difference where women get the benefit of a doubt whereas men get punished is nonsense : the man who killed his parents with an axe in Donegal a couple of years ago "got off scot free". By which I mean that he was found not to be responsible for his acts and got no prison sentence.

    Yes, was just about to say the same. Men also get off due to diminished responsiblity. Another point to add, diminished responsibility claims are taken very seriously. People can't claim it willy nilly.


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    #89
    RobertKK
    Registered Users Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭RobertKK


    What she did was no different to abortion, according to ethicists at Oxford.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html
    They argued: “The moral status of an infant is equivalent to that of a fetus in the sense that both lack those properties that justify the attribution of a right to life to an individual.”

    Rather than being “actual persons”, newborns were “potential persons”. They explained: “Both a fetus and a newborn certainly are human beings and potential persons, but neither is a ‘person’ in the sense of ‘subject of a moral right to life’.


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    #90
    infogiver
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,505 ✭✭✭infogiver


    mdwexford wrote: »
    Yeah living with the guilt is punishment enough.

    60 days rehab seems a fair sentence.

    People are so brainwashed into believing this rubbish.
    Infanticide, what a load of crap.

    Here we have it in all its glory. The predujice of the ignorant ill informed bigot towards mental illness. This is usually followed by a dismissive "pull yourself together there's nothing wrong with you".
    These are the people who in times gone past condemned the autistic and the special needs amongst us to a lifetime in an institution and they would do it again in a heartbeat.
    Disgusting.


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    #91
    padd b1975
    Registered Users Posts: 10,714 ✭✭✭✭padd b1975


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Got away with it??

    Maybe she didn't go to prison but I'd imagine the emotional and psychological turmoil she'll likely go through for the rest of her life will be punishment enough?

    Or she might continue to be a heartless killer, nobody can tell for sure.


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