Ireland needs to develop a high tech manufacturing industry

Yixian · 05-02-2017 3:21am #1

I'm currently living in Australia, no matter what happens to the global economy, so long as there is a country somewhere that is manufacturing something.. Australia will be (relatively) ok. Australia doesn't really need a manufacturing industry because it can just dig up mountains of raw materials in the outback and flog them to the rest of the world.
But the future of the Irish economy keeps me up at night. In terms of natural resources the island has almost nothing so the only significant value it will ever get from trade is going to be value added through manufacturing, and being a small country with a high cost and standard of living, that's going to need to be high tech and largely automated. Whatever it is it would need to be of a scale large enough to contribute meaningfully to the Irish economy and that means political involvement and state funding (it always has).
But the potential is there. Irish universities are world class and one of the few genuinely useful side-effects of the corporate-tax-incentives approach governments have taken over the last few decades is that there is a lot of high tech expertise in the country.
There's also the potential to power a large scale manufacturing effort in a self-sufficient way, using the many proposed renewable energy technologies proposed that take advantage of some of Ireland's fairly unique geographical peculiarities eg. Spirit of Ireland's hydroelectric proposal.
Does anyone have any ideas what kind of goods Ireland could produce? It would need to be sufficiently high tech as to not have to compete with Chinese alternatives, sufficiently unique either in function or appeal to compete with other high income manufacturing countries like Germany, and yet essential enough to remain in demand even in the event of the likely global economic declines we are likely to see in coming years.
Medical equipment? A luxury/racing car brand? Agricultural technology?

Samuel T. Cogley · 05-02-2017 3:27am

What makes you think Irish Universities are world class?

In the Times Higher Education (THE) World University Rankings 2015, Trinity is ranked 160th in the top 200 world universities and 78th in Europe.

UCD

World University Rankings 2015 154th

On a positive note I believe the scale that UCC came up with in relation to the severity of child porn is used world wide.

Brian? · 05-02-2017 10:34am

Ireland already has a huge high tech manufacturing sector.

Semiconductors, medical devices and pharmaceuticals are huge employers in Ireland. They just aren't Irish owned.

Phoebas · 05-02-2017 10:47am

Brian? wrote: »

Ireland already has a huge high tech manufacturing sector.

Semiconductors, medical devices and pharmaceuticals are huge employers in Ireland. They just aren't Irish owned.

A lot of those industries here could be badly effected if the Border Adjustment Tax that Trump has backed goes through.

NIMAN · 05-02-2017 10:52am

We had a huge area of fish stock, massive.

But pssed that away as well.

Del2005 · 05-02-2017 10:54am

Phoebas wrote: »

A lot of those industries here could be badly effected if the Border Adjustment Tax that Trump has backed goes through.

They will still need a base to sell to the 500m Europeans. If Trump puts up barriers to EU imports then US made items will have barriers to the EU. I don't see many companies running from a market of half a billion for a market of a third of a billion.

Brian? · 05-02-2017 10:54am

Phoebas wrote: »

A lot of those industries here could be badly effected if the Border Adjustment Tax that Trump has backed goes through.

They could be, true. The likelihood of Trump getting to impose levies like that are small though. The GOP will not allow it, they've too many vested interests to serve.

artemis268 · 05-02-2017 11:07am

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

What makes you think Irish Universities are world class?

UCD

On a positive note I believe the scale that UCC came up with in relation to the severity of child porn is used world wide.

Lol exactly. I went to college in Ireland and Australia and the contrasts are incomparable.

One has state of the arts facilities with multiple world class researchs going on, backed by millions of dollars in funding nurturing talents over decades at the same place; and the other is just a couple of brick and Georgian buildings converted to lecture halls and academic facilities. Research here are bare minimum and any breakthrough made would then be transferred to the U.K because the talent and equipment here just can't get it to the next level. Examples include the recent malaria vaccine research that was transferred to imperial uni.

All the people working in it (scientist and medical doctors in hospitals) that I've spoken to have confinded that equipment and training in Ireland have just the bare minimum to do adequate research and to progress further, one has to move out. All of them have plans in the immediate future to move to U.S or Australia.

The problem here just there is no funding. This is understandable because with a 7% unemployment rate and low GDP, priorities are for the surivival of working class and putting food on the table, not for the pursuit of higher sciences.

Things will continue to be a struggle here until the economy picks up and investment starts flowing into various sectors here including education but that'll be probably be years down the line.

Ireland needs to find a niche and boost its research capabilities in that field if it wants to survive. That starts by funding tertiary education that pumps out people specilalized in that field. what that is would be anyone's guess. Engineering? Green energy? exporting Wind power? Water?

Phoebas · 05-02-2017 11:16am

Brian? wrote: »

They could be, true. The likelihood of Trump getting to impose levies like that are small though. The GOP will not allow it, they've too many vested interests to serve.

Both Paul Ryan and Kevin Brady (Chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee) are pushing versions of it, so there is support at the top of the party.
Trump was pushing for a simpler levy on imports because he found the complicated plans complicated, but there seems to be a fair bit of support for something along the lines of it.

I don't think its an immediate concern because it'll take years to agree and there'll be loads of pushback by corporations, but something that might worry us in a couple of years.

Cookie_Monster · 05-02-2017 11:17am

Ireland has considerable agriculture and fishery production to call on and as a food source it really is a more fundamental fall back than high technology. Yes it may not be managed perfectly but the potential is there.

Del2005 · 05-02-2017 12:22pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Ireland has considerable agriculture and fishery production to call on and as a food source it really is a more fundamental fall back than high technology. Yes it may not be managed perfectly but the potential is there.

I think the fishery game is long gone as we've already stripped the oceans of the fish we eat and fish farming isn't sustainable with its current food source.

Elemonator · 05-02-2017 12:30pm

There already is a huge sector here, but the big problem is they are nearly all American owned.

We produce pharmaceuticals and computer chips and thats only the start. Industry doesn't have to be physical either, the IFSC and the fact that a large fraction of the worlds aircraft are registered in Ireland.

So while you may be right in the sense that we need more industry, you'd be wrong in saying we don't have any. We need homegrown Irish industry.

And Australia is literally about to crash, the property bubble has hit there.

BlinkingLights · 05-02-2017 12:34pm

artemis268 wrote: »

Lol exactly. I went to college in Ireland and Australia and the contrasts are incomparable.

One has state of the arts facilities with multiple world class researchs going on, backed by millions of dollars in funding nurturing talents over decades at the same place; and the other is just a couple of brick and Georgian buildings converted to lecture halls and academic facilities. Research here are bare minimum and any breakthrough made would then be transferred to the U.K because the talent and equipment here just can't get it to the next level. Examples include the recent malaria vaccine research that was transferred to imperial uni.

All the people working in it (scientist and medical doctors in hospitals) that I've spoken to have confinded that equipment and training in Ireland have just the bare minimum to do adequate research and to progress further, one has to move out. All of them have plans in the immediate future to move to U.S or Australia.

The problem here just there is no funding. This is understandable because with a 7% unemployment rate and low GDP, priorities are for the surivival of working class and putting food on the table, not for the pursuit of higher sciences.

Things will continue to be a struggle here until the economy picks up and investment starts flowing into various sectors here including education but that'll be probably be years down the line.

Ireland needs to find a niche and boost its research capabilities in that field if it wants to survive. That starts by funding tertiary education that pumps out people specilalized in that field. what that is would be anyone's guess. Engineering? Green energy? exporting Wind power? Water?

Low GDP?!
Ireland ranks as having 5th highest GDP per capita in the world at present.

I also have not experienced going to university in nothing but a few Georgian buildings. I seem to remember pretty high tech facilities. Things were tight during the economic crisis but I was attending college in pretty brand new facilities in UCC whcih included chip fabs and various other things.

That university is currently investing €213m in its campus.

I think you're painting a picture of Ireland from the 1980s tbh

Samuel T. Cogley · 05-02-2017 12:41pm

Irish teaching probably isn't as bad as the rankings suggest but we're terrible at research. When I posted I'd had a few beers and have to admit made my post and never made a point. The point I was making is that we've Unis that turn out the Goldilocks graduate. A reasonable well educated worker for myriad of firms that are here, primarily for tax reasons.

As you rightly point out though, it seems to work for us. 5th in terms of GDP for a country that's been around 5 minutes is pretty bloody good. I just wish we weren't quite so dependent and that we'd develop our education system a bit!

BlinkingLights · 05-02-2017 12:52pm

The rankings also tend to favour non generalist univedsitirs they are Postgraduate research dominated.

The majority of EU public universities aren't like that as most have huge % of undergraduate students and you've also got a lot of network based research in Europe with multiple places cooperating which does not rank them very fairly in the surveys.

I think Ireland most definitely needs to return to finding universities better as there were fairly drastic cuts in the 2008 recession which resulted in slippages in the rankings a few years later as those cuts bit.

Hopefully we should see that rapidly reverse now assuming things continue on their current trajectory.

Incidentally, Australian universities don't have a particularly stellar ranking. The highest being 40th in the world : http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings-2016/Australia.html

They do have some that rank better than Ireland but they've had no break in funding.

The other issue that Irish universities suffer from is proximity to huge research centre in the UK, US and continental Europe. That can make it quite difficult to grow anything serious here as a lot of top end researchers will get attracted away very quickly which has tended to always leave a bit of a vacuum.

flintash · 05-02-2017 12:55pm

artemis268 wrote:

Things will continue to be a struggle here until the economy picks up and investment starts flowing into various sectors here including education but that'll be probably be years down the line.

investment=brick and mortar aka property speculation. Didn't you know?!

Rain Ascending · 06-02-2017 1:58am

Yixian wrote: »

Does anyone have any ideas what kind of goods Ireland could produce? It would need to be sufficiently high tech as to not have to compete with Chinese alternatives, sufficiently unique either in function or appeal to compete with other high income manufacturing countries like Germany, and yet essential enough to remain in demand even in the event of the likely global economic declines we are likely to see in coming years.
Medical equipment? A luxury/racing car brand? Agricultural technology?

Ideally you look for something that is relatively hard to replicate in other locations worldwide, something particular to the country or a combination of areas where we have particular strengths.

A few that come to mind:

Apply ICT (information and communications tech) to transform those segments of the arts and entertainment where Ireland punches above its weight (e.g. music, literature).
Retry the "Lab Ireland" idea (where we facilitate some key players in a given area to do large national trials of a new technology). Ideally it should be with end use applications that can generate some level of public interest and support.
As already suggested, agri-technology should also be an area where we could excel.

Be wary, however of the Irish government and its agencies heavily backing a few key players -- they haven't had great success to date. The government is better off creating the right environmental/eco-system supports and then letting that eco-system to determine its own winners.

06-02-2017 11:32am

Elemonator wrote: »

There already is a huge sector here, but the big problem is they are nearly all American owned.

We produce pharmaceuticals and computer chips and thats only the start. Industry doesn't have to be physical either, the IFSC and the fact that a large fraction of the worlds aircraft are registered in Ireland.

So while you may be right in the sense that we need more industry, you'd be wrong in saying we don't have any. We need homegrown Irish industry.

And Australia is literally about to crash, the property bubble has hit there.

Aye. Out there quite a bit last 2 years Western Australia and the Northwest. Huge property bubble. Politicians on TV and radio warning folks not to be talking down th economy, all sounded very familiar.

Yixian wrote: »

I'm currently living in Australia, no matter what happens to the global economy, so long as there is a country somewhere that is manufacturing something.. Australia will be (relatively) ok. Australia doesn't really need a manufacturing industry because it can just dig up mountains of raw materials in the outback and flog them to the rest of the world. .............

But their mining industry has all but collapsed, along with the Oil and Gas industry!

johnnyskeleton · 06-02-2017 12:22pm

Del2005 wrote: »

They will still need a base to sell to the 500m Europeans. If Trump puts up barriers to EU imports then US made items will have barriers to the EU. I don't see many companies running from a market of half a billion for a market of a third of a billion.

Pharma anyway will be an interesting one. Will they prefer the region where every country has a strong public health service or on the one where there is higher private healthcare than any other OEDC country?

In reality, multinationals will probably have a "manufacturing" base on both sides of the atlantic, with the actual making of the product still being outsourced.

Ireland needs to develop a high tech manufacturing industry

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