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Anyone else becoming terrified of Liberals.

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Comments

  • #92
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #93
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    Classical Liberalism is the notion that everyone should be completely free and completely equal, that's what the original thinkers believed anyway. It's ironic of course that liberalism is inherently anti-capitalist yet it is championed by the capitalists. The markets were only the device by which this complete freedom was to be delivered.


  • #94
    johnp001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 658 ✭✭✭johnp001


    Havockk wrote: »
    Classical Liberalism is the notion that everyone should be completely free and completely equal, that's what the original thinkers believed anyway. It's ironic of course that liberalism is inherently anti-capitalist yet it is championed by the capitalists. The markets were only the device by which this complete freedom was to be delivered.

    On the contrary classical liberalism was the belief in the equality of opportunity which is completely consistent with free market capitalism.

    A belief in equality of outcome however requires an economic system that is anti-capitalist.


  • #95
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    alastair wrote: »
    Your opinion was also that Horner's story was plausible, in fairness.

    Yeah and I also said Trump would win the election whilst you were calling Clinton Madam President.


  • #96
    Havockk
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 695 ✭✭✭Havockk


    johnp001 wrote: »
    On the contrary classical liberalism was the belief in the equality of opportunity which is completely consistent with free market capitalism.

    A belief in equality of outcome however requires an economic system that is anti-capitalist.

    Guys like Smith would fall into the latter camp there.


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  • #97
    um7y1h83ge06nx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,029 ✭✭✭um7y1h83ge06nx


    This thread seems like great craic.

    I feel these US Liberals have completely got out of hand, not a very nice bunch of people at all. The worst thing is their air of superiority in what they do. Criticise them and you're likely to be branded a fascist, racist or something similar. All a bit immature.


  • #98
    Hank Scorpio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,631 ✭✭✭✭Hank Scorpio


    Reuben Flabby Magazine wrote: »
    This thread seems like great craic.

    I feel these US Liberals have completely got out of hand, not a very nice bunch of people at all. The worst thing is their air of superiority in what they do. Criticise them and you're likely to be branded a fascist, racist or something similar. All a bit immature.

    Sure look at the main Trump thread, I got labeled a racist because I have conservative views and I don't buy into the liberal media mania.


  • #99
    johnp001
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 658 ✭✭✭johnp001


    Havockk wrote: »
    Guys like Smith would fall into the latter camp there.

    There is a fascinating series of articles about Adam Smith in relation to Classic Liberal/Libertarian positions at Was Adam Smith a Libertarian?

    Havockk wrote: »
    Classical Liberalism is the notion that everyone should be completely free and completely equal, that's what the original thinkers believed anyway. It's ironic of course that liberalism is inherently anti-capitalist yet it is championed by the capitalists. The markets were only the device by which this complete freedom was to be delivered.

    To go back to the previous post about complete freedom and complete equality. The fact is that these are mutually exclusive if the type of equality you mean is equality of outcome.
    You are not free, in that you don't possess rights to your own property, if you must share with me everything you have in excess of my possessions to make our outcomes equal.


  • #100
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Sure look at the main Trump thread, I got labeled a racist because I have conservative views and I don't buy into the liberal media mania.

    Aren't you a birth conspiracy believer?


  • #101
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Yeah and I also said Trump would win the election whilst you were calling Clinton Madam President.

    The difference is that one example is plausible, and the other isn't. The issue isn't being wrong, it's being a dupe.


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  • #102
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,708 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    DrumSteve wrote: »
    Makes me a bit sad they way the word liberal has been hijacked by american politics.

    Whats actually wrong with being liberal in its truest sense?

    Absolutely nothing. Being liberal minded is essentially being open minded to new ideas and tolerant for views that differ to one's own. Where one draws their line is up to them. Usually, you'll find that that stops at racism, bigotry and extremist viewpoints.

    Being liberal is good.

    However, the American version is a very strange, bastardised take on the position and most of the single issue shouters that are called "liberals" (usually as a slur by those on the right) are nothing of the sort. They're not even left wingers TBH.

    I always find it strange, though, that "liberal" is a word used to mock by the American right. Like being open minded is a bad thing. :pac:


  • #103
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,708 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Brian? wrote: »
    You know what makes it more confusing? Calling left wing people liberals.

    But one can hold left wing views and be "liberal". It's generally been the left that have fought for liberal views and tolerance towards those that the right have generally view as a threat, be it homosexuals, foreigners or even women.

    It wasn't the right wing that had traditionally stood up for the rights of the above examples. It was the left.

    So from that perspective, the left can hold liberal views, if one is to class "liberal" as open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.


  • #104
    alastair
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,309 ✭✭✭✭alastair


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Absolutely nothing. Being liberal minded is essentially being open minded to new ideas and tolerant for views that differ to one's own. Where one draws their line is up to them. Usually, you'll find that that stops at racism, bigotry and extremist viewpoints.

    Being liberal is good.

    However, the American version is a very strange, bastardised take on the position and most of the single issue shouters that are called "liberals" (usually as a slur by those on the right) are nothing of the sort. They're not even left wingers TBH.

    I always find it strange, though, that "liberal" is a word used to mock by the American right. Like being open minded is a bad thing. :pac:
    Tony EH wrote: »
    But one can hold left wing views and be "liberal". It's generally been the left that have fought for liberal views and tolerance towards those that the right have generally view as a threat, be it homosexuals, foreigners or even women.

    It wasn't the right wing that had traditionally stood up for the rights of the above examples. It was the left.

    So from that perspective, the left can hold liberal views, if one is to class "liberal" as open to new behavior or opinions and willing to discard traditional values.

    The notion that liberalism (as opposed to economic liberalism) is some sort of American invention is pretty blinkered in any case. Corporatist liberals - with progressive social policy and comprehensive welfare and social provision models, were the template for the social democratic system in Scandinavia - from the start of the 20th century. So left-leaning progressive politics, under the moniker of 'Liberals' didn't spring out of the US counter-culture.

    The success of progressive politics in the US, irrespective of whoever sits in the Whitehouse or Capitol, is the big picture story of the last fifty years there.


  • #105
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,362 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Sure look at the main Trump thread, I got labeled a racist because I have conservative views and I don't buy into the liberal media mania.

    You made that up no one called you racist . Stop playing a victim card , you've been responded to there . No need to drag victim into other threads especially when there is no truth to the claim.

    This is the hilarious part of this thread.you are all straight out of the playbook. When you have zero ammo to defend trump's decisions you attack and attack and attack the opposition. If you spent half the time taking on the points of his EOs properly rather than crying about liberals then we could actually see the quality of the pro trump argument.

    So far it has been scant much the same as his staff who fire fight his issues daily.


    Makes for quality TV though always another good jaysus around the corner.


    Brilliant


  • #106
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,637 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Hank Scorpio wrote: »
    Sure look at the main Trump thread, I got labeled a racist because I have conservative views and I don't buy into the liberal media mania.

    Did you? Seriously? I'd like some proof please because that would interest me as a mod.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #107
    Jan_de_Bakker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭Jan_de_Bakker


    red ears wrote: »
    There is definitely something happening. In my lifetime i have never seen the likes of what is going on in US campuses with riots breaking out when someone comes to give a talk. The anger is palpable. In one video a blonde girl gets hit over the head with a pole. She didn't seem to be doing anything to warrant it. Hollywood directors and actors calling for violence and the whole room cheering and whooping as if its totally acceptable.
    As Sargon of Akkad says, back in ancient Rome actors were basically at the same level as prostitutes or street entertainers .... would be great if people today took them as seriously, the day when CGI is so good we don't need that shower can't come quick enough.


  • #108
    Brian?
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Brian?


    Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »
    As Sargon of Akkad says, back in ancient Rome actors were basically at the same level as prostitutes or street entertainers .... would be great if people today took them as seriously, the day when CGI is so good we don't need that shower can't come quick enough.

    What have you got against prostitutes and street entertainers?

    Actors have every right to express their political views, just like anyone. Why does that annoy you so much? Is it because your side gets lesser known Baldwins?

    they/them/theirs


    The more you can increase fear of drugs and crime, welfare mothers, immigrants and aliens, the more you control all of the people.

    Noam Chomsky



  • #109
    WinnyThePoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,417 ✭✭✭WinnyThePoo


    Brian? wrote: »
    What have you got against prostitutes and street entertainers?

    Actors have every right to express their political views, just like anyone. Why does that annoy you so much? Is it because your side gets lesser known Baldwins?

    I've noticed trump supporters really don't like actors having an opinion.

    They really get angry about it.


  • #110
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    Brian? wrote: »
    Actors have every right to express their political views, just like anyone. Why does that annoy you so much?

    What annoys me, personally, isn't them expressing their views. It's people using them as some kind of authority on something, that since they're famous they're inherently more knowledgeable about something.

    Whenever I see people post that Australian comedian talking about guns (which he admitted to making up stats for) as some kind of trump card "gotcha" moment, a little part of me dies inside.


  • #111
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,362 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    What annoys me, personally, isn't them expressing their views. It's people using them as some kind of authority on something, that since they're famous they're inherently more knowledgeable about something.

    Whenever I see people post that Australian comedian talking about guns (which he admitted to making up stats for) as some kind of trump card "gotcha" moment, a little part of me dies inside.

    Who uses then as an authority?

    Specifically


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  • #112
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    listermint wrote: »
    Who uses then as an authority?

    Specifically

    A great many people. Do you want me to start trolling through Facebook comments on videos to find proof?

    Clinton used them to try and woo people into voting for her. Liam Cunningham was on Claire Byrne debating about refugees for christ sake. The man's experience consists of visiting camps and being on The Guard and Game of Thrones.


  • #113
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,362 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    A great many people. Do you want me to start trolling through Facebook comments on videos to find proof?

    Clinton used them to try and woo people into voting for her. Liam Cunningham was on Claire Byrne debating about refugees for christ sake. The man's experience consists of visiting camps and being on The Guard and Game of Thrones.

    Wait.. Facebook comments are holding actors in high regard.

    Ok

    I'm out


  • #114
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    listermint wrote: »
    Wait.. Facebook comments are holding actors in high regard.

    Ok

    I'm out

    Do you think people who post on Facebook aren't allowed to vote or something? Do you think I'm asserting that academic papers are quoting actors? Did you think I was saying Government policy is formed on the basis of radio presenters opinions?


  • #115
    listermint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,362 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    Do you think people who post on Facebook aren't allowed to vote or something? Do you think I'm asserting that academic papers are quoting actors? Did you think I was saying Government policy is formed on the basis of radio presenters opinions?

    Facebook is a hilarious item for you to put your assertion across it's basically zero evidence and musings of real or fake people on the internet.


  • #116
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,393 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    listermint wrote: »
    Facebook is a hilarious item for you to put your assertion across it's basically zero evidence and musings of real or fake people on the internet.

    Fakebook is the new Encyclopedia Britannica.


  • #117
    sid waddell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭sid waddell


    AnGaelach wrote: »
    What annoys me, personally, isn't them expressing their views. It's people using them as some kind of authority on something, that since they're famous they're inherently more knowledgeable about something.
    Funny how Trump supporters don't seem to realise the irony of them shouting about actors having no right to a view on politics, given that they were more than happy to support a reality TV star with no prior experience in politics, and proclaiming loudly that that lack of experience was a great thing.

    I rather think the irony is lost on them!

    But then many ironies are lost on Trump supporters.

    One wonders where "Democrat-loving Hollywood luvvies with no knowledge of politics", like, say, Arnold Schwarzenegger, stand in the minds of Trump supporters in terms of having a right to an opinion.


  • #118
    AnGaelach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭AnGaelach


    listermint wrote: »
    Facebook is a hilarious item for you to put your assertion across it's basically zero evidence and musings of real or fake people on the internet.

    What other assertion do you want? Do you want me to tell you about discussions I've had in real life (which you'd say is anecdotal), or look for people on Twitter or blog posts? Again, we're not discussing academic literature here so you can cut the smugness out.


  • #119
    ancapailldorcha
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 41,637 CMod ✭✭✭✭ancapailldorcha


    Professor Moriarty wrote: »
    Fakebook is the new Encyclopedia Britannica.

    Post more constructively and ditch the petty name calling please.

    The foreigner residing among you must be treated as your native-born. Love them as yourself, for you were foreigners in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

    Leviticus 19:34



  • #120
    Jan_de_Bakker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,403 ✭✭✭Jan_de_Bakker


    WinnyThePoo wrote: »
    I've noticed trump supporters really don't like actors having an opinion.

    They really get angry about it.

    Who's the Trump supporter ?

    Anyway, point is when actors are inciting violence - it's an issue


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  • #121
    KingBrian2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,363 ✭✭✭KingBrian2


    I love the bash the Trump supporter as though you can wrap Trumpites into a nice little package. People voted for Trump for a lot of simple reasons. Gvt was performing dreadfully and they were looking for effective Gvt in this time of recession & international terrorism. Constantly referencing the Trump people as neo fascists.


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