Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Wibbs · 03-02-2017 12:22AM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Talk about jumping the shark.....

Cue Stage Left: Tommy T is a perfect example of The Patriarchy(™)© and I was ambushed and victimised for just being a Woman(™)©. Insert byline here in the Indo(with sentences masquerading as paragraphs. Primal scream optional).

mzungu · 03-02-2017 12:22AM

Alf Stewart. wrote: »

She was even more miffed when Tommy laughed her out of it:D

Your woman reckoned asking for consent should come pretty much from the get go, on a first date.

Tiernan stated sniggering.

So he asks her to clarify. "Do you really mean, fella should ask the woman at the start of the date, is it ok if I have sex with you?"

She reckoned that, that was a fair enough thing to expect on a first date and one of the first things that should be discussed on a date.

But that wasn't all..... Oh no..... She said that applied to both genders, that equally a woman should ask a lad, on their first date, if a lad wanted to have sex with her too.

Tiernan nearly fell outta his chair.

Ah Jaysus. In no way could any of the above be workable in any real life situation.

Maybe her heart is in the right place but the only thing less romantic than that would be having lawyers for both parties present to witness the verbal contract.

mzungu · 03-02-2017 12:24AM

Dravokivich wrote: »

And that summary of the first book she wrote has a plothole in it.

Women only give birth to boys.
So girls are brought up thought to be pretty for men...

...Where did the girls come from Louise?

Stork?

03-02-2017 12:25AM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

Talk about jumping the shark.....

Did he challenge her or did she just get pissy over nothing....I would love to see someone challenge her on tv about her guff...Niamh Horan would be a good challenge

03-02-2017 12:26AM

https://twitter.com/RTEOne/status/827286435132821504 Lol

Alf Stewart. · 03-02-2017 12:26AM

mzungu wrote: »

Ah Jaysus. In no way could any of the above be workable in any real life situation.

Maybe her heart is in the right place but the only thing less romantic than that would be having lawyers for both parties present to witness the verbal contract.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqvRi6TLZBE

pumpkin4life · 03-02-2017 12:48AM

Alf Stewart. wrote: »

She was even more miffed when Tommy laughed her out of it:D

Your woman reckoned asking for consent should come pretty much from the get go, on a first date.

Tiernan stated sniggering.

So he asks her to clarify. "Do you really mean, fella should ask the woman at the start of the date, is it ok if I have sex with you?"

She reckoned that, that was a fair enough thing to expect on a first date and one of the first things that should be discussed on a date.

But that wasn't all..... Oh no..... She said that applied to both genders, that equally a woman should ask a lad, on their first date, if a lad wanted to have sex with her too.

Tiernan nearly fell outta his chair.

The Rape of Lucretia · 03-02-2017 12:50AM

Its a good interview.

After she says people may be reluctant to ask for consent because they may be afraid they wont get it - you can actually see Tommy's mind boggling. Priceless.

03-02-2017 12:57AM

Blue haired brigade out in force on her twitter, "stunning hun" "where dya get your dress", "your my hero"....She'll be all over theJournal/Indo saying shes totes brave etc

Eimee90 · 03-02-2017 01:09AM

I think she came across quite aggressive and passive angry. Which is disappointing because I do think sexual awareness regarding consent is important for young people. But she really didnt impress me.

Id have no problem letting my daughter or son attend a consent class, important to know you should never do something that makes you uncomfortable or even strategies to escape situations like this.

But louise came across very bitter.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 03-02-2017 01:15AM

As alluded to earlier in the thread, this person may not be well. Watching that interview tonight made me feel uncomfortable.

Do you know that feeling you get when you're talking to a person and you sense that there's something off about them. As in they could be dealing with 'issues' upstairs.

Maybe it's not the best idea to rip the complete piss out of her if this is indeed the case.

Angel Crow · 03-02-2017 01:19AM

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

Blue haired brigade out in force on her twitter, "stunning hun" "where dya get your dress", "your my hero"....She'll be all over theJournal/Indo saying shes totes brave etc

Mistakenly went on Twitter to read some comments about the interview and that's all there is. Apparently she's the saviour of society and looks fabulous.

pumpkin4life · 03-02-2017 01:44AM

Just watched it. I preferred it when Louise O Neill was in a panda suit.

Christ on a bike. That woman is heading for a massive breakdown.

Outlaw Pete · 03-02-2017 04:29AM

Felt Tommy gave her a fierce easy time tbh. He could easily have destroyed her given some of the nonsense she said. Conflating rape jokes in western society with with soft sentencing is absurd. I can't think of anything that would ostracize someone more from society than being a rapist and that would not be the case if her contention was remotely true. Do cancer jokes mean deep down we're all really okay with the disease killing so many of us? As that's the logic of it if you follow it to it's conclusion.

Like I said though, he could have given her a much harder time if he was a mind to and I know as I remember when Tommy got in trouble making jokes over the years about a few topics and he was able to make bits of nonsense arguments that you can't make jokes about certain topics and the notion that to do so means you're laughing at it. Context is everything and what / who is the actual butt of the joke is what is important. Rarely if ever are such jokes laughing at, or making light of, serious subjects.

It's opinions from people like Louise that led to the BBC editing out the Major's lines from Fawlty Towers but anyone with an ounce of sense knows that when the Major was being racist, the joke was on him. The audience was laughing at him, not with him. It's a pity that Tommy did not play the following clip from his old stand up shows and put it to her that while the joke references rape, it is however not the butt of the joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPWlHEEmSU0

Would love to see her on a show were her opinions are well and truly torn asunder. Would pay good money to see her interviewed alongside the likes of Camille Paglia or Wendy McElroy for example. They'd eat her for breakfast.

Widdershins · 03-02-2017 10:12AM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

As alluded to earlier in the thread, this person may not be well. Watching that interview tonight made me feel uncomfortable.

Do you know that feeling you get when you're talking to a person and you sense that there's something off about them. As in they could be dealing with 'issues' upstairs.

Maybe it's not the best idea to rip the complete piss out of her if this is indeed the case.

I got that sense when watching a clip of LON reading from one of her books; the one about the girl who wakes up on the doorstep or something and has no idea what happened. I don't think she was actually speaking through gritted teeth but she seemed like it to me. There was something lairy and unnerving about the way she was talking.
Having said that I have no idea how I'd come across if I had to do public speaking, and have generalised anxiety disorder, so you might well get a weird 'sense' from talking to me on a stressed day, too. I think she's compus mentus enough to know what she is doing and saying and probably should be able to take less than pandering responses, but I'm only guessing! Also, I didn't see the Tommy Tiernan show, so maybe she's in worse health than I realised.

Maybe this is why Tommy Tiernan appears to have given her ''an easy time'' though.

03-02-2017 10:15AM

MarchFreeze wrote: »

I wonder does she have an issue with people saying "I could murder a pint".

That pint is being oppressed by the patriarchy and a victim of oppression....could actually see her saying that

mzungu · 03-02-2017 10:59AM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Felt Tommy gave her a fierce easy time tbh. He could easily have destroyed her given some of the nonsense she said. Conflating rape jokes in western society with with soft sentencing is absurd. I can't think of anything that would ostracize someone more from society than being a rapist and that would not be the case if her contention was remotely true. Do cancer jokes mean deep down we're all really okay with the disease killing so many of us? As that's the logic of it if you follow it to it's conclusion.

The very first post in this thread details a Twitter exchange where she partook in a joke about male gang rape. Talk about double standards.

lazybones32 · 03-02-2017 11:28AM

elsa21 wrote: »

I'd have no problem letting my daughter or son attend a consent class, important to know you should never do something that makes you uncomfortable or even strategies to escape situations like this.

If they wanted to attend a consent class or if they had to attend? Plus, as uncomfortable as talking sex with your kids is - for them - aren't you, their parent, responsible for their education? A few words from you is worth pages from some handout that gives the impression that your son is a potential rapist and that every man is out to rape your daughter.

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

As alluded to earlier in the thread, this person may not be well. Watching that interview tonight made me feel uncomfortable.

Do you know that feeling you get when you're talking to a person and you sense that there's something off about them. As in they could be dealing with 'issues' upstairs.

Maybe it's not the best idea to rip the complete piss out of her if this is indeed the case.

Ideas in the Public domain should be scrutinised and ridiculed or applauded as required. I certainly think a mentally-unbalanced person isn't the right one to be given a platform to teach/influence others.

MarchFreeze wrote: »

I wonder does she have an issue with people saying "I could murder a pint".

Or Ed Byrne's one about stepping out of a bar in NYC and saying "I could murder a fag".

darkdubh · 03-02-2017 11:29AM

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

That pint is being oppressed by the patriarchy and a victim of oppression....could actually see her saying that

If it was pint of Guinness there could be real problems. The white privileged head rising to the top over the black.

darkdubh · 03-02-2017 11:40AM

Ralf and Florian wrote: »

She presented a documentary on rape culture during the week on RTE which focused on the issue of sexual assault against females. It's interesting to note her response to a (male) follower would tweeted that it would be hilarious to see a remake of Deliverance featuring "pissed up dickheads on a drunken stag". For anyone who's not seen the movie Deliverance its about three city dwellers who go for a weekend fishing to what could be described as a backwoods community. Central to the storyline is when they are held captive and one of them raped by a bunch of rednecks.

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/794195404145442816

mzungu wrote: »

The very first post in this thread details a Twitter exchange where she partook in a joke about male gang rape. Talk about double standards.

Forgot about that.Hope that comes back to bite her in the ass.

orubiru · 03-02-2017 11:54AM

mzungu wrote: »

Ah Jaysus. In no way could any of the above be workable in any real life situation.

Maybe her heart is in the right place but the only thing less romantic than that would be having lawyers for both parties present to witness the verbal contract.

It shows a complete lack of understanding of the nuances of human interactions.

Seriously. I think a lot of first dates would not go terribly well if the guy just started asking about sex immediately.

I will defend LON a little and say that what she suggests may be best for some couples and if that's what works for them then fine. You might have a handful of people who need the constant verbal consent "can I do this, can I do that, is this OK, are you sure, is this OK, can I do this now, are you sure, it it OK" and if that's what they require then fine.

For most relationships, many of these suggestions are actually more centered around giving guys instructions on how to avoid rape charges rather than actually protecting ladies. OK, if she had some wine and is begging you to have sex with her then you could be accused. OK, if you don't ask for her consent every 90 seconds or so then you could be accused. Remember our mantra boys "ask consent before each thrust and kiss, or you're off to jail, a convicted rapist".

Yeah, yeah, "you are strawmanning LON". How long before mothers are saying to their young sons "if you sleep with a girl try to get a recording or a text or something so you can prove that she consented"?

Contracts for consent wont work because how can you withdraw consent when you've just signed a contract and how do you prove consent was withdrawn? You can't. Contracts would just put us back into the whole "there can't be rape within marriage" situation. Judge, she gave written consent. Case dismissed.

It doesn't seem like LON etc would really be teaching the next generation to have healthy and respectful relationships. They'd actually just be teaching lads that unless you are super meticulous and careful with every action then you could find yourself in serious trouble. So on top of conditioning women to distrust men we are also conditioning men to not trust women.

So you have young ladies who are terrified to wander around their campus at night because they fear the young men and you have young men who are afraid to interact with young ladies. It's basically mass hysteria. In wider society, if men and women fear each other to that degree then it's probably not such a good thing.

Insisting that we live in a Rape Culture is a key part of that erosion of trust.

If you ask an individual man if he thinks rape is OK then 99.9999% of the time you are going to get a "no" response.

If you ask a man if it's OK to sleep with a girl who's had a few glasses of wine and who says to you "we shouldn't be doing this" while taking your clothes off and kissing you then many more will say "yes, it's ok". Ha! We caught him out there because we think that's technically rape so you are OK with rape!

If you ask a man if he laughed at a sexist joke or a rape joke or said nothing when his friend proclaimed that he'd love to "smash" one of the women off Babestation then he might say "yes" and we got him again! We think sexist jokes and "locker room banter" are a leading cause of rape so he is OK with rape.

Then we can go back to women and say "63.765% of men are OK with rape". Yeah, there was a study and you wont share the complete data but the message is clear. Women, you shouldn't trust men.

Think about it, if we all just agree to accept that a good description for Ireland in 2017 is "Rape Culture" then where do we go from there?

Acceptance of the term does nothing to stop rape. Maybe we take all the adverts with sexy ladies off the TV and we all stop making jokes that could be deemed sexist or misogynist. Maybe we all just stop talking to drunk women in bars and we all refuse to ever have one night stands. Maybe we all just sign a pact to never have sex before marriage and we sign a contract before any conjugal sexual activity.

Does any of this stop rape from happening? I don't think it does.

So all we've really done is told each other that our culture is terrible and that our culture is fine with the wholesale abuse of women and that there isn't a damn thing we can do to stop it.

Of course we can't stop it. Most of us don't even come close to participating in it. We can't quantify it or understand it. How many rapists do you know? How well do you understand their motivations and reasons for doing what they did?

All that's left is to shame good people into believing that they might somehow be responsible for it.

You might as well say we live in a Sinful Culture or a Culture of Heathens because at the end of the day the usage of the phrase "Rape Culture" is designed to shame normal good people into thinking that by simply existing they are an intrinsic part of something evil.

Thanks to people like this, the conversation around rape has become toxic in and of itself. They will not tolerate any dissent. So your only option is to sit and nod your head while no progress is made.

Meanwhile, these folks make money pontificating about problematic movies and video games and teaching us all how women simply can't be sexist towards men.

"I didn’t want to have a debate on television as to whether or not rape culture exists – it does". OK. So now what?

Your garbage "documentary" offered no tangible solutions or viable avenues towards fixing the problem. So now what?

Widdershins · 03-02-2017 12:01PM

orubiru wrote: »

It shows a complete lack of understanding of the nuances of human interactions.

Seriously. I think a lot of first dates would not go terribly well if the guy just started asking about sex immediately.

I will defend LON a little and say that what she suggests may be best for some couples and if that's what works for them then fine. You might have a handful of people who need the constant verbal consent "can I do this, can I do that, is this OK, are you sure, is this OK, can I do this now, are you sure, it it OK" and if that's what they require then fine.

For most relationships, many of these suggestions are actually more centered around giving guys instructions on how to avoid rape charges rather than actually protecting ladies. OK, if she had some wine and is begging you to have sex with her then you could be accused. OK, if you don't ask for her consent every 90 seconds or so then you could be accused. Remember our mantra boys "ask consent before each thrust and kiss, or you're off to jail, a convicted rapist".

Yeah, yeah, "you are strawmanning LON". How long before mothers are saying to their young sons "if you sleep with a girl try to get a recording or a text or something so you can prove that she consented"?

Contracts for consent wont work because how can you withdraw consent when you've just signed a contract and how do you prove consent was withdrawn? You can't. Contracts would just put us back into the whole "there can't be rape within marriage" situation. Judge, she gave written consent. Case dismissed.

It doesn't seem like LON etc would really be teaching the next generation to have healthy and respectful relationships. They'd actually just be teaching lads that unless you are super meticulous and careful with every action then you could find yourself in serious trouble. So on top of conditioning women to distrust men we are also conditioning men to not trust women.

So you have young ladies who are terrified to wander around their campus at night because they fear the young men and you have young men who are afraid to interact with young ladies. It's basically mass hysteria. In wider society, if men and women fear each other to that degree then it's probably not such a good thing.

Insisting that we live in a Rape Culture is a key part of that erosion of trust.

If you ask an individual man if he thinks rape is OK then 99.9999% of the time you are going to get a "no" response.

If you ask a man if it's OK to sleep with a girl who's had a few glasses of wine and who says to you "we shouldn't be doing this" while taking your clothes off and kissing you then many more will say "yes, it's ok". Ha! We caught him out there because we think that's technically rape so you are OK with rape!

If you ask a man if he laughed at a sexist joke or a rape joke or said nothing when his friend proclaimed that he'd love to "smash" one of the women off Babestation then he might say "yes" and we got him again! We think sexist jokes and "locker room banter" are a leading cause of rape so he is OK with rape.

Then we can go back to women and say "63.765% of men are OK with rape". Yeah, there was a study and you wont share the complete data but the message is clear. Women, you shouldn't trust men.

Think about it, if we all just agree to accept that a good description for Ireland in 2017 is "Rape Culture" then where do we go from there?

Acceptance of the term does nothing to stop rape. Maybe we take all the adverts with sexy ladies off the TV and we all stop making jokes that could be deemed sexist or misogynist. Maybe we all just stop talking to drunk women in bars and we all refuse to ever have one night stands. Maybe we all just sign a pact to never have sex before marriage and we sign a contract before any conjugal sexual activity.

Does any of this stop rape from happening? I don't think it does.

So all we've really done is told each other that our culture is terrible and that our culture is fine with the wholesale abuse of women and that there isn't a damn thing we can do to stop it.

Of course we can't stop it. Most of us don't even come close to participating in it. We can't quantify it or understand it. How many rapists do you know? How well do you understand their motivations and reasons for doing what they did?

All that's left is to shame good people into believing that they might somehow be responsible for it.

You might as well say we live in a Sinful Culture or a Culture of Heathens because at the end of the day the usage of the phrase "Rape Culture" is designed to shame normal good people into thinking that by simply existing they are an intrinsic part of something evil.

Thanks to people like this, the conversation around rape has become toxic in and of itself. They will not tolerate any dissent. So your only option is to sit and nod your head while no progress is made.

Meanwhile, these folks make money pontificating about problematic movies and video games and teaching us all how women simply can't be sexist towards men.

"I didn’t want to have a debate on television as to whether or not rape culture exists – it does". OK. So now what?

Your garbage "documentary" offered no tangible solutions or viable avenues towards fixing the problem. So now what?

I'd never thought of that, the effect of the prior consent idea on rape within a marriage.

03-02-2017 12:32PM

darkdubh wrote: »

If it was pint of Guinness there could be real problems. The white privileged head rising to the top over the black.

Heard the pints gender was assumed wrongly

py2006 · 03-02-2017 01:45PM

Just about to watch her now on the rte player.

Tommy's body language when she came out says it all and, "I wouldn't have come across you before so....like....what do you do?".

He knew damn well what she was about. Even if he didn't it would have been researched. It was clear the way he was looking at her that he didn't feel comfortable with her. Plus it made her awkward too.

RabbleRouser2k · 03-02-2017 02:52PM

mzungu wrote: »

Ah Jaysus. In no way could any of the above be workable in any real life situation.

Maybe her heart is in the right place but the only thing less romantic than that would be having lawyers for both parties present to witness the verbal contract.

I swear to God....all I could think of was this Kids in the Hall sketch.

It's literally LoN's worldview...and this sketch is about 20+ years old. Jesus.

Ri_Nollaig · 03-02-2017 04:45PM

py2006 wrote: »

He knew damn well what she was about. Even if he didn't it would have been researched.

Isn't the point of the show is he doesn't know who his guests are going to be? Prior to this thread I never heard of her either.

lazybones32 · 03-02-2017 05:04PM

Sasha Wide Squash wrote: »

Heard the pints gender was assumed wrongly

Really? I heard it self-identifies as a lager.

And who are we to disagree.

py2006 · 03-02-2017 05:06PM

Ri_Nollaig wrote: »

Isn't the point of the show is he doesn't know who his guests are going to be? Prior to this thread I never heard of her either.

Oh really? I didn't know that. although his body language from the start suggested he didn't have much time for her.

I heard of her alright before, total nutter. There is a thread in after hours about her and her name comes up in the Gentlemens club too.

EDIT: blonde moment. This thread

Alf Stewart. · 03-02-2017 05:52PM

py2006 wrote: »

Oh really? I didn't know that. although his body language from the start suggested he didn't have much time for her.

I heard of her alright before, total nutter. There is a thread in after hours about her and her name comes up in the Gentlemens club too.

EDIT: blonde moment. This thread

:pac:

Wibbs · 03-02-2017 09:00PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

As alluded to earlier in the thread, this person may not be well. Watching that interview tonight made me feel uncomfortable.

Do you know that feeling you get when you're talking to a person and you sense that there's something off about them. As in they could be dealing with 'issues' upstairs.

Maybe it's not the best idea to rip the complete piss out of her if this is indeed the case.

I watched it on the oul player there and TBH I didn't get any of that "may not be well" stuff. I think that a) that's an all too easy out as far as discussion, b) projecting what people might want to assume and c) one hell of a presumption about someone.

The main impression I got was of an awkward interview on both sides and that she's not used to much in the way of probing dissent(and/or ignores it). TT played very nice, a puff piece as it were and you could sense even then the shields coming down and just preach the gospel unopposed in her. A proper interview where the interviewer was up to speed and asked real questions and questioned her on some of the "facts" she espouses about this brand of "feminism" would not be comfortable for her at all. That she parroted the "equality" bit at the end without a hint of awareness or irony said much.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

Comments