Should Ireland rename places named after British people?

Del.Monte · 19-01-2017 03:25PM

mackeire wrote: »

But on a serious note, yes, yes Ireland should change the names of famous landmarks etc to something that suits them from Irish history.

Such as?

4ensic15 · 19-01-2017 11:16PM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

No they weren't. The Normans were French.

the Normans were Scandinavians who occupied some of France but at the time they came here they were controlling Britain, which they still do, thus making them British.

wakka12 · 19-01-2017 11:29PM

Does it really matter? Name new monumnents after irish heroes, keep the old ones the way they are. They are part of our history no matter how dark, renaming them would be erasing history. Also we have matured a bit beyond the we hate the english mentality I think. Britain is Ireland's closest ally in the world really, don't think theres really a need for what you're suggesting anymore

Pawwed Rig · 20-01-2017 07:25AM

4ensic15 wrote: »

the Normans were Scandinavians who occupied some of France but at the time they came here they were controlling Britain, which they still do, thus making them British.

By that rationale you may just say they were Irish.

Pawwed Rig · 20-01-2017 07:26AM

4ensic15 wrote: »

the Normans were Scandinavians who occupied some of France but at the time they came here they were controlling Britain, which they still do, thus making them British.

By that rationale you may just say they were Irish.

Peregrinus · 20-01-2017 07:33AM

Well, no. Someone who is born and raised in Britain and is a member of the British ruling establishment can reasonably be called British, even if his class came to be the British ruling establishment by virtue of an invasion a couple of generations previously. But you can't "by that rationale" call him Irish.

You could argue by that rationale that, if he invades Ireland and establishes himself as part of an Irish ruling class, in a couple of generations his Irish-born and Irish-raised descendants can be called Irish.

(Which, of course, they were.)

Pawwed Rig · 20-01-2017 09:07AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, no. Someone who is born and raised in Britain and is a member of the British ruling establishment can reasonably be called British, even if his class came to be the British ruling establishment by virtue of an invasion a couple of generations previously. But you can't "by that rationale" call him Irish. )

Even if they speak French, associate with French people and consider the French king their lord? They would not have considered themselves British as we know it either. Britain at the time was very much part of greater France.

Peregrinus · 20-01-2017 09:20AM

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Even if they speak French, associate with French people and consider the French king their lord? They would not have considered themselves British as we know it either. Britain at the time was very much part of greater France.

The Norman rules of Britain did not "consider the French King their Lord". They considered the King of England to be their Lord. England and France were entirely separate kingdoms and, at that time, neither king laid claim to the other country.

It's true that at one time the Kings of England did claim the throne of France, but that was a couple of centuries later. And the claim had nothing to do with the Norman Conquest or with William the Conqueror, who was never King of France and never claimed to be. That claim was first advanced in 1340, by Edward III of England, on the death of his maternal uncle Charles IV of France. Edward claimed to be Charles's closest surviving male relative. Which he was, but through the female line which, as far as the French were concerned, wasn't good enough.

20-01-2017 02:45PM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's their history, not our history. It is British colonial history honouring heroes of the British colonial world, heroes of their Empire - the very same empire that has occupied, suppressed and crushed the Irish for centuries. Gardner, Mountjoy, Elgin, Clyde, Lansdowne, Herbert/Pembroke/Sydney, Grosvenor, Victoria and, yes, your beloved Wellington are heroes of the British Empire

THIS right here is what 'whitewashing history' looks like. We're all supposed to pretend that every man woman and child in Georgian Dublin (because that's when and where many of the streets in question were built) was some oppressed peasant desperate for independence and in no way supportive of the empire.

THAT'S the fiction. We don't have to accept that Ireland was in general enthusiastic about empire but removing the names of streets to try and pretend that no Irish person was ever involved in the empire is absurd and ahistorical.

btw surely streets all over the world are named after whichever landowner originally developed them, or at least have the names they gave them? I don't think this is unique to Dublin, look at Mayfair in London and the Grosvenor family. Is the Earl Grosvenor representative of the English common man, hardly. Does it matter? I'd sooner worry about taking their inherited money off them than renaming a few streets.

Commotion Ocean · 22-01-2017 09:12PM

No, keep them with their British names.

LordSutch wrote: »

By that^ toxic post I presume you suggesting that Poland's relationship with the Nazi's & Nazi Germany is akin to Irelands relationship with Britain.

Are you for real?

Nice try at agitation, but we ain't biting.

I'm not comparing Ireland's present day relationship to that between Nazi Germany and Poland... I'm comparing our past relationship with Britain to that between Nazi Germany and Poland.

During the Irish genocide in the 1800's, our population (especially of Catholics) was decimated and food was exported under military force.

If you need help with any of the big words, just ask a grown up, good boy.

Commotion Ocean · 22-01-2017 09:14PM

No, keep them with their British names.

Confused mum84 wrote: »

The US also gained independence from Britain (via a war between the two) but they didn't rename towns etc i.e. New York is still New York , New England region still know as New England etc

Britain didn't impose a genocide by moving what little food they had under military force.

They didn't steal properties from Catholics.

maryishere · 22-01-2017 09:20PM

dfeo wrote: »

food was exported under military force.

Actually in 1847, one of the worst years of the famine, food exports from Ireland were 120 thousand tons, , and imports of food in the same year was 900 thousand tons......ie, almost 8 times more than exports.
http://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/famine/

You do know the difference between import and export, do you not?
It reminds me of the hypocrisy of some Republicans who were taught to despise Thatcher, while taught that Devalera was a great fellow. They did not realise that Devalera not alone let some IRA men die on hunger strikes in Dev's own jail in the 1940s but also actually hung some IRA.

Fratton Fred · 23-01-2017 09:43AM

dfeo wrote: »

Britain didn't impose a genocide by moving what little food we had under military force.

Britain didn't export anything out of Ireland during the famine. All imports/exports were done by local merchants/farmers. The state getting involved with exports would have gone against the principles of lassez faire that were being stuck to so vehemently

3DataModem · 23-01-2017 09:46AM

dfeo wrote: »

There are many places in Ireland that were named after British oppressors and British things in general. Henry St. is named after Henry Moore, and Gardiner St is named after Luke Gardiner, husband of Elizabeth Montgomery.

In Dublin, going through the heart of the city, we have the "Royal" Canal.

The Wellington Monument was built by the British. The Wellington Testimonial was built to commemorate the victories of Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington. He was a leading military and political figure and member of the protestant ascendancy (the economic and social domination of Ireland).
I've spoken to people (older people) who said "Nelsons column should never have been taken down". Jesus. It's like keeping a statue of Hitler in the middle of a Jewish street in Poland. They should have kept the column, but replaced the statue on top with one of our own national heroes.

There are many places in Dublin and Ireland in general that should have been renamed after some of our own heroes and heroines. I'd much rather see the Markievicz Canal or the Kevin Barry Monument.

Go to Israel. You won't see an Adolf Avenue, Goebbels Gardens or Hitler Heights. Sorry for Godwinnig this thread so early, but it's the only appropriate comparison.

Should our landmarks and streets be renamed after our national heroes and heroines? Whom would you choose to name our landmarks and streets after?

Yeah all the stuff named after St Patrick should be renamed. He was Welsh.

Commotion Ocean · 24-01-2017 01:20PM

No, keep them with their British names.

3DataModem wrote: »

Yeah all the stuff named after St Patrick should be renamed. He was Welsh.

He wasn't a planter or involved in attrocities against the Irish people which is what this thread is about.

whisky_galore · 24-01-2017 01:23PM

dfeo wrote: »

He wasn't a planter or involved in attrocities against the Irish people which is what this thread is about.

He only imported and spread an alien religion....

Cortina_MK_IV · 24-01-2017 01:36PM

You have to ask if there is an appetite for change. Realistically there are more pressing issues. Try asking "the man (or woman) in the street" and they might find meeting their next mortgage payment or getting their ageing mother off a hospital trolley more important than re-naming a road (place.)

valoren · 24-01-2017 01:43PM

I think those who advocate such changes naturally assume that the exchequer will pick up the tab.
It would usually help local councils to be very accommodating of such proposals but purely at the expense of the proposers.

I'm sure it wouldn't take long for some bar stooler campaigning to have a street re-named to drop the idea when they are asked to submit a cheque for €50,000 to the local council to pay for it.

Glenster · 24-01-2017 01:49PM

dfeo wrote: »

There are many places in Ireland that were named after British oppressors and British things in general. Henry St. is named after Henry Moore, and Gardiner St is named after Luke Gardiner, husband of Elizabeth Montgomery.

In Dublin, going through the heart of the city, we have the "Royal" Canal.

The Wellington Monument was built by the British. The Wellington Testimonial was built to commemorate the victories of Arthur Wellesley, 1st Duke of Wellington. He was a leading military and political figure and member of the protestant ascendancy (the economic and social domination of Ireland).
I've spoken to people (older people) who said "Nelsons column should never have been taken down". Jesus. It's like keeping a statue of Hitler in the middle of a Jewish street in Poland. They should have kept the column, but replaced the statue on top with one of our own national heroes.

There are many places in Dublin and Ireland in general that should have been renamed after some of our own heroes and heroines. I'd much rather see the Markievicz Canal or the Kevin Barry Monument.

Go to Israel. You won't see an Adolf Avenue, Goebbels Gardens or Hitler Heights. Sorry for Godwinnig this thread so early, but it's the only appropriate comparison.

Should our landmarks and streets be renamed after our national heroes and heroines? Whom would you choose to name our landmarks and streets after?

Luke Gardiner and Henry Moore were Irish though, so was Arthur Wellesley? There are a bunch of Markievicz and Kevin Barry Streets and the Wellington monument no longer exists.

I don't understand.......Israel? Hitler?

Fratton Fred · 24-01-2017 02:59PM

dfeo wrote: »

He wasn't a planter or involved in attrocities against the Irish people which is what this thread is about.

oops, there goes Wolfe Tone Quay and Parnell Square.

Yamanoto · 24-01-2017 03:16PM

And the auld triangle went jingle-jangle
All along the banks of the post-colonial, neutrally monikered & non-offensive canal

PabloAndRoy · 24-01-2017 03:32PM

Here is an interesting fact about Anne's Street in Wexford.

from http://wexfordhub.com/pictures/anne-street/

According to Wexford historian Nicky Rossiter, the street probably got its name from Queen Anne, who became Queen of England, Scotland and Ireland back in 1702.
...
In the 1920s, the Wexford Borough Council attempted to change the name of the street to Thomas Ashe Street, after one of the founding members of the Irish Volunteers. The proposed change was not legalised, however, as locals rejected the new name during a plebiscite vote in 1932.

I am pretty sure there was a street sign there in the 70s which said "Thomas Ashe Street" ... i might be mistaken.

There was a similar effort with regard to George's Street in Wexford being renamed Oliver Plunkett Street, although that was named after St George not King George. (http://wexfordhub.com/pictures/georges-street/)

also ...

In recent times, there has been suggestions that Upper George’s Street should be renamed as Robert Brennan Street, in honour of the Wexford-born journalist that took part in the 1916 Rising. The journalist, who grew up in a house on the corner of Upper George’s Street and Abbey Street, was the Irish Free State’s first minister to the United States. After joining the Gaelic League and the Irish Volunteers, he was recruited into the Irish Republican Brotherhood. In 2016, a plebiscite to rename the street was defeated by 42 votes to 9.

Wexford says "NO"

whisky_galore · 24-01-2017 03:38PM

PabloAndRoy wrote: »

Here is an interesting fact about Anne's Street in Wexford.

from http://wexfordhub.com/pictures/anne-street/

I am pretty sure there was a street sign there in the 70s which said "Thomas Ashe Street" ... i might be mistaken.

There was a similar effort with regard to George's Street in Wexford being renamed Oliver Plunkett Street, although that was named after St George not King George. (http://wexfordhub.com/pictures/georges-street/)

also ...

Wexford says "NO"

Apart from Heuston/Connolly/Pearse/Kent; very few if any of the other railway station name changes of 1966 have remained in common use.
People might struggle with where exactly O'Hanrahan, Mac Donough or Mac Bride stations are.

COH · 24-01-2017 03:42PM

Should boards.ie only be available as Gaeilge while we're at it? The English language is such a constant reminder of oppression

I for one am alán offended go mór.

jmayo · 24-01-2017 03:45PM

dfeo wrote: »

You can have English names without names of people who butchered Ireland and suppressed the people. You won't see a Pol Pot street in SE Asia.

Ehhh why would other countries apart from Cambodia have anything regarding Pol Pot and comparing him to British/English rulers is like apples and carrots.

catbear wrote: »

Cambodia lost a third of its population under Khmer Rouge rule, Irelands population was halved under direct British rule. The only difference is time scale.

Pol Pot was Cambodian. :rolleyes:
He didn't conquer anyone bar his own and the only ones he slaughtered were his own.
But you go right ahead with your comaprisons and neglect the actual facts.

murpho999 wrote: »

...
Your Israel/Germany comparison is ridiculous by the way as Germany never ruled Israel.

Ah would you stop with those facts.

catbear wrote: »

Our population was halved under direct British rule, we were starved in the millions while food was exported under military guard and you think that's overplayed?

The greatest trick the British played on the Irish was persuading fools that it was the potato to blame and not them.

We should be naming the road outside the British embassy An Gorta Mor road.

I could be pedantic and ask who was in charge when our population grew to 8 million.

And yes I know all about the disastrous consequence of the famine and emigration as I grew up with the reminders around me in Mayo, a county that lost more than anyone else.

catbear wrote: »

but that's not unique to Ireland, the premiership is massive in asia for instance so it's no special signifier of some special bond between Ireland and its former tormentor.
In fact if Brexit has the effect as projected on video games, the money is going to other leagues and the global audience will follow, including heads in pubs in Dublin.

Bullshyte.
British clubs had massive following in Ireland long before the premiership and the likes of Sky Sports.
And even when the likes of Seria A was massive and best league world wide in the 80s/90s we didn't have hundreds traipsing down to the local to watch Juve versus Milan or the rivalry between Inter and Maradona's Napoli.

Cortina_MK_IV wrote: »

FOR THE THIRD TIME HE ALREADY HAS A F**KING ROAD!!! IT EVEN HAS A MAIN FORD DEALER ON IT!

I reckon the Cortina MK II was much better car.

realdanbreen · 24-01-2017 03:48PM

dfeo wrote: »

He wasn't a planter or involved in attrocities against the Irish people which is what this thread is about.

That rules out McGuinness and Adams so.

LordSutch · 24-01-2017 04:09PM

I seem to remember a Sinn Fein motion in the Dail a few years ago something along the lines that all new housing estates should be named in Irish only? Can anyone clarify?

A Little Pony · 24-01-2017 04:15PM

What is the point as the histories are interlinked. It is impossible to talk about one without mentioning the other.

Chuchote · 24-01-2017 04:25PM

I've always had a soft spot for Henry Moore, Earl of Drogheda who in a feast of pre-Trumpism named all the streets he built on the northern end of what's now O'Connell Street after himself: Henry Street, Moore Street, Earl Street, Of Alley and Drogheda Street (the last was the name of the northern half of O'Connell Street when it was built first). He was descended from the O'Mores who were such a sting in the bottom of Queen Elizabeth I of England and her genocidal cronies, specifically Garret Moore of Cavan.

Yeah, I think we should celebrate our own heroes, and also others that we admire.

Del.Monte · 24-01-2017 04:38PM

whisky_galore wrote: »

Apart from Heuston/Connolly/Pearse/Kent; very few if any of the other railway station name changes of 1966 have remained in common use.
People might struggle with where exactly O'Hanrahan, Mac Donough or Mac Bride stations are.

Precious few people refer to Cork Station as Kent - more likely to call it Glanmire Road.

Should Ireland rename places named after British people?

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