Louise O Neill on rape culture.

mzungu · 21-01-2017 01:30PM

anna080 wrote: »

So, going by her logic, can a privileged white woman be sexist towards a working class underprivileged black man? I'm guessing she'd still say no.

One part that stuck out:

And while of course, a wealthy white woman is likely to have more privilege than a working class man of colour

I think its fair to say a wealthy white woman has more privilege than a working class man, no matter what their colour. The inference in the quoted section being that even a white man who struggles to pay the bills, still has more privilege than than a far wealthier woman with no such struggles...simply on account on his gender and skin colour. Not even olympic levels of mental gymnastics could make sense of that.

21-01-2017 01:36PM

She lost me when she says it's not fair to make fun of skinny people for being skinny, but it's much worse if you make fun of a fat person.

How? Someone still gets criticised. I'm not reading the rest of that tripe. I'm going to assume it goes "It's not fair to be sexist to men but it's not as bad as being sexist towards women, because my opinion."

CatFromHue · 21-01-2017 01:37PM

Will everyone just pleeeaassseee check their privilege

JRant · 21-01-2017 01:44PM

Arcade_Tryer wrote: »

It's a good article.

Dictionary definitions are often a long way from explaining the actual meaning of many terms within different societal structures.

However, I disagree that reverse sexism does not exist. It simply does. In fact it has to. Because sexism is human nature. Sexism against men is not institutionalised within societal structures however. And that's the issue I think she is trying to highlight. Which is fair enough.

That is simply not true though.

The judiciary hand out far tougher and longer sentences to men than women. There are also the family courts which is heavily weighted towards women.

Women receive very generous maternity leave, men get 2 weeks unpaid.

Women are given free screening for certain cancers, men are not.

These are just a few examples of societal structures that favour women over men. To be honest I'd struggle to name any societal structures that favour men over women in such blatant terms.

JRant · 21-01-2017 01:48PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She lost me when she says it's not fair to make fun of skinny people for being skinny, but it's much worse if you make fun of a fat person.

How? Someone still gets criticised. I'm not reading the rest of that tripe. I'm going to assume it goes "It's not fair to be sexist to men but it's not as bad as being sexist towards women, because my opinion."

Oh it gets worse, she claims that suicide victims have nobody to blame but themselves for not expressing their feelings enough.

21-01-2017 01:52PM

JRant wrote: »

Oh it gets worse, she claims that suicide victims have nobody to blame but themselves for not expressing their feelings enough.

I definitely saved myself three minutes by skipping the rest of it then.

ivytwine · 21-01-2017 01:53PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

She lost me when she says it's not fair to make fun of skinny people for being skinny, but it's much worse if you make fun of a fat person.

How? Someone still gets criticised. I'm not reading the rest of that tripe. I'm going to assume it goes "It's not fair to be sexist to men but it's not as bad as being sexist towards women, because my opinion."

Yeah and as a former twig, I used to hate being slagged off about being skinny because it just felt I couldn't complain without sounding like I was bemoaning my good luck. It still hurt to be teased over my body.

JRant · 21-01-2017 01:59PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I definitely saved myself three minutes by skipping the rest of it then.

And a possible migraine from having to read such tripe

JRant · 21-01-2017 02:02PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Yeah and as a former twig, I used to hate being slagged off about being skinny because it just felt I couldn't complain without sounding like I was bemoaning my good luck. It still hurt to be teased over my body.

Of course it did but ideologues like herself have painted certain groups as perpetual victims and if you don't fall into one of these prescribed categories than your opinion doesn't count.

ivytwine · 21-01-2017 02:05PM

JRant wrote: »

That is simply not true though.

The judiciary hand out far tougher and longer sentences to men than women. There are also the family courts which is heavily weighted towards women.

Women receive very generous maternity leave, men get 2 weeks unpaid.

Women are given free screening for certain cancers, men are not.

These are just a few examples of societal structures that favour women over men. To be honest I'd struggle to name any societal structures that favour men over women in such blatant terms.

Historically there were tons but most have been dismantled at this point, bar a few legacy ones like the 8th Amendment. I note LON did not mention the family court, or that until recently unmarried fathers had no automatic right to be included on birth certs.

I will say that those are primarily cancers that affect women, and there are prostrate screening programmes etc. I do think 2 weeks leave is nothing, but physically women do need a lengthier time. Emotionally both parents need the 6 months I think.

Movember has been brilliant for men, and I'd like to see more of that for men, and I'll support it as the day is long.

ivytwine · 21-01-2017 02:09PM

JRant wrote: »

Of course it did but ideologues like herself have painted certain groups as perpetual victims and if you don't fall into one of these prescribed categories than your opinion doesn't count.

It's funny isn't it. It's all about feelings but none of it's about feelings. Because if you're not the right type of person you can't possibly feel as much. There's no kindness or attempt at understanding with people like this.

JRant · 21-01-2017 02:16PM

ivytwine wrote: »

Historically there were tons but most have been dismantled at this point, bar a few legacy ones like the 8th Amendment. I note LON did not mention the family court, or that until recently unmarried fathers had no automatic right to be included on birth certs.

I will say that those are primarily cancers that affect women, and there are prostrate screening programmes etc. I do think 2 weeks leave is nothing, but physically women do need a lengthier time. Emotionally both parents need the 6 months I think.

Movember has been brilliant for men, and I'd like to see more of that for men, and I'll support it as the day is long.

The 8th doesn't favour men though. It's a throwback to the religious having far too much power and needs to be removed from the constitution.

Prostate screening is not a nationwide free screening program though unlike breast cancer or HVP.

I'd agree than child birth is extremely demanding for women. 6 months is a fair anount of time to allow recovery and bonding time. By only giving men 2 weeks it makes it more difficult to both bond with the child and help their partner during such a tough time. An increase in paternity leave would also relieve the pressure on women's careers IMO.

I fully agree with you on Movember.

JRant · 21-01-2017 02:20PM

ivytwine wrote: »

It's funny isn't it. It's all about feelings but none of it's about feelings. Because if you're not the right type of person you can't possibly feel as much. There's no kindness or attempt at understanding with people like this.

Exactly right. Just try to argue her point towards the feelings of trans or gay people and you'd be quickly and rightly told that you have no right to tell others how they should feel. But because you're not from a "special" group than your experience doesn't amount to a hill of beans with her and her ilk.

Widdershins · 21-01-2017 02:21PM

JRant wrote: »

That is simply not true though.

The judiciary hand out far tougher and longer sentences to men than women. There are also the family courts which is heavily weighted towards women.

Women receive very generous maternity leave, men get 2 weeks unpaid.

Women are given free screening for certain cancers, men are not.

These are just a few examples of societal structures that favour women over men. To be honest I'd struggle to name any societal structures that favour men over women in such blatant terms.

I agree with you except on maternity leave. Pregnancy, birth, the tiredness and physical issues that go with the postpartum stage, and possibly breastfeeding a baby, takes its toll. Its simply not the same for men. They don't usually need the equivalent in maternity leave.

JRant · 21-01-2017 02:32PM

Widdershins wrote: »

I agree with you except on maternity leave. Pregnancy, birth, the tiredness and physical issues that go with the postpartum stage, and possibly breastfeeding a baby, takes its toll. Its simply not the same for men. They don't usually need the equivalent in maternity leave.

I wouldn't even attempt to argue women don't deserve the time off to recover from the physical aspects of childbirth, that would be a patently ridiculous thing to do. There are however many other reasons why men should get longer paternity leave, to help them bond with the child, help the new mother at home, recover from the tiredness and physical exhaustion that effects them, and to also make it easier for women in the workplace regarding career prospects etc.

ivytwine · 21-01-2017 04:05PM

JRant wrote: »

The 8th doesn't favour men though. It's a throwback to the religious having far too much power and needs to be removed from the constitution.

Prostate screening is not a nationwide free screening program though unlike breast cancer or HVP.

I'd agree than child birth is extremely demanding for women. 6 months is a fair anount of time to allow recovery and bonding time. By only giving men 2 weeks it makes it more difficult to both bond with the child and help their partner during such a tough time. An increase in paternity leave would also relieve the pressure on women's careers IMO.

I fully agree with you on Movember.

If anything the 8th damages men too, men who have to travel with their partners in cases of FFA, the higher risk of something going wrong in a maternity care. It must be incredibly difficult for a man to see his partner going through that.

It is the legacy of a very sexist institution though, and the constitution was written by a very sexist man. I'd like to see the line about a woman's place being in the home being removed. Even though it makes little difference to people in reality, I'd still like it gone.

Didn't know that about prostrate screening, my apologies. They should roll out a system similar to breastcheck for this. For cervical screening, I'd say it's more medical advances with the vaccine that have allowed it to progress so far. I believe it's a cancer with very little symptoms as well so hence the prevention is better than cure screening.

I'm with you on the paternity leave. Even the sleep deprivation of having a new baby is reason enough to give men longer leave. Two weeks is feck all.

gizmo555 · 21-01-2017 04:58PM

JRant wrote: »

Of course it did but ideologues like herself have painted certain groups as perpetual victims and if you don't fall into one of these prescribed categories than your opinion doesn't count.

And, of course, for her and those who think like her all women are perpetual victims.

I snorted with laughter listening to Richard Boyd Barrett on Matt Cooper yesterday evening. While - no doubt justifiably - criticising Donald Trump, he referred to Trump's overt prejudice against "Mexicans, Muslims, women, and other minorities".

Hello? Richard? Women are half the population - not a "minority". (In fact, in Ireland and the US, women are slightly in the majority.)

mzungu · 21-01-2017 05:57PM

gizmo555 wrote: »

And, of course, for her and those who think like her all women are perpetual victims.

I snorted with laughter listening to Richard Boyd Barrett on Matt Cooper yesterday evening. While - no doubt justifiably - criticising Donald Trump, he referred to Trump's overt prejudice against "Mexicans, Muslims, women, and other minorities".

Hello? Richard? Women are half the population - not a "minority". (In fact, in Ireland and the US, women are slightly in the majority.)

Probably off topic but that reminds me of an interview he (RBB) did with Sean O'Rourke after Trump won the election in November. When listing out Trumps many flaws (quite justifiably in this case too), RBB berated him for being "populist". While this is true, it was a bit rich of a member of AAA/PBP to accuse others of being populists.

mzungu · 21-01-2017 06:11PM

ivytwine wrote: »

It is the legacy of a very sexist institution though, and the constitution was written by a very sexist man. I'd like to see the line about a woman's place being in the home being removed. Even though it makes little difference to people in reality, I'd still like it gone.

While you are right that it would not make a day-to-day difference, it is complete and utter cringe factor that it is there. Although it was written in a different era, I think a symbolic gesture of removing should be done. TBH I am surprised that there has not been any moves towards doing that by this government (I think Labour had it in their manifesto for GE16 IIRC).

pookiesboo · 21-01-2017 07:46PM

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-oneill-it-is-impossible-for-women-to-be-sexist-towards-men-440072.html

Using 'Serena Gomez and Justin Bieber' as examples to make a point makes her sound like a 12 year old not a 30+ year old woman. Cringe-tastic.

Widdershins · 21-01-2017 07:55PM

JRant wrote: »

I wouldn't even attempt to argue women don't deserve the time off to recover from the physical aspects of childbirth, that would be a patently ridiculous thing to do. There are however many other reasons why men should get longer paternity leave, to help them bond with the child, help the new mother at home, recover from the tiredness and physical exhaustion that effects them, and to also make it easier for women in the workplace regarding career prospects etc.

I agree, it would be the ideal, but I don't think it's discrimination or anything.

ivytwine · 21-01-2017 08:11PM

pookiesboo wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-oneill-it-is-impossible-for-women-to-be-sexist-towards-men-440072.html

Using 'Serena Gomez and Justin Bieber' as examples to make a point makes her sound like a 12 year old not a 30+ year old woman. Cringe-tastic.

I was talking about this with a friend recently, actually more about the examples of people like Roman Polanski and Jimmy Page and their antics with underage girls. I think using celebrities with their vast vast wealth and status (and maybe more in the past where they wouldn't have been as monitored) to extrapolate to the general population is lunacy. These people simply don't operate in the same reality as us.

Like if an ordinary Joe Soap had his dick pics circulated to his boss there'd be definite consequences. I mean a young boy in Northern Ireland killed himself because he thought nude pics would be leaked to his community.

RabbleRouser2k · 22-01-2017 02:10AM

Goya wrote: »

Chloe is vile and that behaviour was totally disgusting and it was harassment (and there certainly is a double standard) but why use the analogy of a man rubbing his penis on a woman's back? The mirror analogy would be a man rubbing his ass on a woman's head. And there would indeed still be uproar over that.

Well, you could argue that there was contact 'between her vagina' as well as her butt. Not trying to be too graphic, but we know there is a definite anatomical difference between women there-some have 'more' down there than others. (I'm really trying not to be too graphic here...struggling too).
But then you have the 'Jessica' one being all like 'Get Him Chloe' and that just made it all the more disturbing. The public was obviously angry too, they evicted her a day or two later.

It wasn't the 'innocence' about it-it was more the 'this is a REAL woman'. It's sick and disturbing, in my opinion.

RabbleRouser2k · 22-01-2017 02:12AM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Of course reverse sexism doesn't exist.

It's just sexism.

Reverse sexism is so irritating-because the reverse of any prejudice is 'tolerance' so when they say 'Reverse sexism don't exist' it's essentially saying 'tolerance doesn't exist'.

Love the comments on fb-some pity her, others are like 'this wouldn't get a D in the Junior Cert'.

RabbleRouser2k · 22-01-2017 02:20AM

She also completely ignores a new law in the civil service,(I believe, I may be wrong on the area) that will force employers to employ a woman over a man if they have the same qualifications. Cannot see how that will be enforced, tbh. Can see it very quickly being challenge in court too-similar to how the 'women pay less for car insurance' was challenged, and won, by a man. Sadly, they raised the insurance for women instead of lowering it for men.

The Vanessa Hudgens (not Selena Gomez)/ justin Bieber argument is tosh. Totally tosh. Occurred at different times too, almost ten years between them. (She also completely ignores the 'KAte Middleton on holiday' snapshots argument that occurred too. Remember when papers were 'refusing' to print them-bar one or two who were like 'wtf you on about?'. Then RTE and twitter got in a tizzy when the ORlando Bloom photos went around the internet-flipping RTE had it on their entertainment page ffs!)
Vanessa H was never in danger of losing her job-Disney said so, multiple times (her photos were hacked on three different occassions-silly thing didn't learn). Whereas Bieber was on holiday, Hudgens photos were taken from her own personal photographs. On her phone. IT was a breach of security. It was the media who implied she would lose her job-ya know, the very people LoN works for.
The more I read her article, the more I genuinely didn't believe it-not for a moment. And also, the more I read, the more I felt she didn't believe it either-felt like she was pulling at threads of straws-trying to grasp a point.
Her writing is steadily getting worse.

And the desperation to 'get a man' despite then bashing men...LoN, honey, have you ever wondered 'WHY' you're single? Maybe time to move out of home, find a place-ya know, get some independence. Get off twitter too, cos that's not gonna give you a good outlook on life. Not at all.

RabbleRouser2k · 22-01-2017 02:26AM

ivytwine wrote: »

I was talking about this with a friend recently, actually more about the examples of people like Roman Polanski and Jimmy Page and their antics with underage girls. I think using celebrities with their vast vast wealth and status (and maybe more in the past where they wouldn't have been as monitored) to extrapolate to the general population is lunacy. These people simply don't operate in the same reality as us.

Like if an ordinary Joe Soap had his dick pics circulated to his boss there'd be definite consequences. I mean a young boy in Northern Ireland killed himself because he thought nude pics would be leaked to his community.

Her analogy doesn't account for the 'rape apologists', many of whom are women, who tried to say things like 'the Polanski thing is not 'rape rape''. As well as ignoring the rather disturbing allegations against folks like Lena Dunham, or how Paula Poundstone managed to maintain a career despite (and this is taken from her wikipedia page) Poundstone began serving as a foster parent in the 1990s, fostering eight children and eventually adopting two daughters and a son.[4][9][10] In October 2001, Poundstone was found guilty of felony child endangerment in connection with driving while intoxicated with children in the car. She was also charged with three counts of lewd acts upon a child younger than 14,[11] but reached a plea agreement for probation and community service. Poundstone has talked about her personal responsibility for the events that led to her arrest and the steps she has taken, including a six-month treatment program for alcoholism.[12][13]

There were also incidents where you had women who were saying that 'a female teacher who seduced a male teenaged student' doesn't deserve a harsh punishment...but then, when the same question was posed to them 'but what if it was a male seducing a female teenaged student?'...'oh, well then I'd beat his @ss...' was the response to hollers. They don't get the hypocrisy in that statement.

Had a look at LoN's article...dear sweet jesus...the patriarchy??? Really? 'We need to dismantle the patriarchy and create a kinder, gentler system'...she does know that the 'patriarchy' isn't a physical thing, right? IT's not like government...we cannot vote for a new patriarchy to take over from the old one. Nobody's putting up posters telling us when the new patriarchy vote is happening.

What's she on about, mate?

deaddonkey15 · 22-01-2017 10:46AM

ivytwine wrote: »

I mean a young boy in Northern Ireland killed himself because he thought nude pics would be leaked to his community.

It was his own fault for not communicating his feelings enough, according to LON's latest piece. In fact she's on record as saying that a guy having nudes publicly distributed isn't as bad as it is for a girl. I'm sure she'd blame the patriarchy for that suicide before the the female who encouraged him to send the nudes.

ivytwine · 22-01-2017 10:50AM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

It was his own fault for not communicating his feelings enough, according to LON's latest piece. In fact she's on record as saying that a guy having nudes publicly distributed isn't as bad as it is for a girl. I'm sure she'd blame the patriarchy for that suicide before the the female who encouraged him to send the nudes.

I think the poor crater was being blackmailed by criminals from abroad, rather than a woman. Horrible case.

The listlessness of that paragraph was striking. I doubt she gives a fiddlers about male suicide.

The_Kew_Tour · 22-01-2017 10:59AM

deaddonkey15 wrote: »

It was his own fault for not communicating his feelings enough, according to LON's latest piece. In fact she's on record as saying that a guy having nudes publicly distributed isn't as bad as it is for a girl. I'm sure she'd blame the patriarchy for that suicide before the the female who encouraged him to send the nudes.

Did she actually say that? At this stage I would not be surprised

jameorahiely · 22-01-2017 11:53AM

pookiesboo wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/columnists/louise-oneill/louise-oneill-it-is-impossible-for-women-to-be-sexist-towards-men-440072.html

Using 'Serena Gomez and Justin Bieber' as examples to make a point makes her sound like a 12 year old not a 30+ year old woman. Cringe-tastic.

Using a 37 year old piece of research by Dr. Dale Spender to back up her point is worse, especially when more recent studies show different.

Louise O Neill on rape culture.

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