The Hazards of Belief

silverharp · 16-01-2017 02:52PM

Hazard of non belief

via @faisalalmutar

http://www.faisalalmutar.com/2017/01/16/iraqi-college-student-kicked-out-of-university-for-defending-the-right-for-atheists-to-live/

An Iraqi student in Al Muthanna university got expelled because of a Facebook comment in which he defended the right of life for atheists.His name is Sameer Saad.

The following is his story:

“My unfair treatment in Al Muthanna university
Sameer Saad – IraqAfter a month of trying finally Al Muthanna university issued an order to expel me and consider that I failed this year (2016-2017)
The case is all about an argument on Facebook
There is a page founded and run by a colleague in the same university, the page posted a discussion about atheism and most of the comments were negative and promoting violent actions towards atheists.

Among the commentators who promoted violence was a person with a (Dr.) before his name referring that he has a PHD, I told him that his opinion is not suitable for a person with high degree or even any education and that provoked him and it turned out that he is among the teaching staff of my university.

At first the university expelled me for lack of attendance because of the efforts that he pulled to make that happens, after I showed them the proper papers that proves that the don’t have the right to do so the dean of my college told me that it`s not over yet and that there will be formed what is so called the “committee of disciplines” to find the proper punishment for me for saying that man is not worthy of his degree.

I was asked to go for the committee meeting and I was surprised that it had only one member who was also from the teaching class, he asked to write down the story on a paper and I did so, without even looking at my paper he started to write his report and the one man committee decision was to expel me and to give me an F in all my classes.

I did nothing wrong and saying my opinion is supposed to be a right protected by the law , I don`t deserve this and there is no one who can stand by me.”

The post in Arabic :

http://bit.ly/2itgwuC

Please Contact to protest the decision:

Minster of Higher Education Email: ministery_office@mohesr.gov.iq

Ministry of Higher Education Email: info@mohesr.gov.iq

University Email For Inquiries:

info@uoalmuthana.edu.iq

robindch · 16-01-2017 06:00PM

Pope Frank runs into trouble with the Knights of Malta.

Condom trouble.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/11/knights-of-malta-condom-scandal-stretches-from-myanmar-to-the-vatican

recedite · 16-01-2017 06:46PM

Its a few hundred years since the Knights of Malta last exposed their unsheathed swords.

I see they have invoked their micky mouse "sovereign state" status to frustrate attempts by the Holy See to investigate things.
Good call. They learned from the pros.

When asked about the specific failings of the Vatican, the minister said: ''It (the Vatican) failed to co-operate with the Murphy Commission, failed to provide information readily available to it with regard to the abuse of children in both the Dublin diocese and subsequently the Cloyne diocese.
''And because a request for information was made directly by the Murphy Commission, (the Vatican) used the diplomatic ploy of refusing to deal with the matter because the request hadn't come through the Department of Foreign Affairs when it couldn't have done so because the Murphy Commission was independent of Government."

Hotblack Desiato · 16-01-2017 07:57PM

silverharp wrote: »

Hazard of non belief

Presumably all concerned are muslims.

If you publicly stated that a member of your western university's faculty was not worthy of holding his degree, would there be a sanction?

robindch · 17-01-2017 04:16PM

Pope Francis, in summary: "If youze christians do-a da talk, but don't walk-a da walk, then youze nothing more than parrots"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-catholic-church-no-point-if-you-dont-believe-in-it-help-the-poor-christian-parrots-a7529631.html

Hotblack Desiato · 18-01-2017 12:48AM

robindch wrote: »

Pope Francis, in summary: "If youze christians do-a da talk, but don't walk-a da walk, then youze nothing more than parrots"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-catholic-church-no-point-if-you-dont-believe-in-it-help-the-poor-christian-parrots-a7529631.html

The Irish bishops are going to disinvite him at this rate!

"He said what? Jaysus, that's all we need, the collection is down 20% this year as it is..."

Jan_de_Bakker · 12-02-2017 10:47PM

So I was going to open a thread on this but maybe best just to post here.
A few years back my wife found out her brother had gotten into the Evangelists
really heavily - he had just split up with his girlfriend and his business was failing.
Anyway, he´s doing well now all debts paid off and working in a new job - he seems to
be over the break up too.
But he´s *really* into this Evangelist stuff now - a real bible basher.
I wouldn´t mind if he kept it personal - and he has been mostly but lately
hes inviting us to these barbeques or other events associated with
the church.
He´s also started giving us bibles and religious bookmarks, calendars etc...
We have 2 kids and seems like he is trying to spread the word.

Today my wife was talking to him and we couldn't believe how committed he is to it -
apparently we are going to hell - for not believing - he said why would God welcome
us into eternity if we don't believe in him ?
He seemed genuinely offended when my wife told him she doesn't believe in God - at least
not the man made organised religion kind of God.

Tried explaining that why would we go to hell when we are good people, why would such a powerful
being be so petty ? - NO .. it´s Gods word and thats that ... the Bible is the word of God
not of men ..

He was shocked that we "believed" in evolution - he then showed complete ignorance of evolution like
"How come a monkey doesn't have a human baby .... how could the eye form by pure chance .... ¨
Forgot to explain the whole shared ancestor thing but I don't think there would be much point.

Also he has conversations with God every day - I mean if he said this about Julios Ceaser or Shakespeare
he would be classed as mentally ill...

I feel bad for the guy because someone has manipulated him into believing this drivel (he wasn´t religious
untill he has about 30 or so..) they got him at a vulnerable time etc.

At the same time, he isn't doing that much harm - allthough we may have problems if he starts trying to preach
to the kids ... lets see..

I was thinking of getting a copy of The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins - but that would be hitting it with a sledgehammer
the same as convincing me to read the bible and take it seriously.. my wife thinks the only way to get him out
is by talking to someone else who was in it in the past and has since got out.

Anyway, was just thinking of it being a good example of a hazard of belief.

Too many people think religion is harmless - I actually think at this stage he would be afraid to leave, he is convinced
of Hells existence.

Peregrinus · 13-02-2017 01:20AM

What exactly is the hazard here? Since embracing evangelical Christianity, he's got a new job, paid off his debts and recovered from a bad breakup. There are not exactly hazards, are they? His new faith doesn't seem to stop him beinng functional, happy and successful. He may be profoundly ignorant about evolution, but most of us are profoundly ignorant about many things; unless this is knowledge that we need to live happily, form solid relationships, etc, that kind of ignorance isn't hazardous. Lots of atheists are profoundly ignorant of, or misinformed about, Christianity; do you consider that hazardous? I don't.

OK, he believes stuff that you don't believe, and I don't believe. But I'm not arrogant enough to define that as "hazardous".

Pawwed Rig · 13-02-2017 08:14AM

Agree with previous post. Some people need a crutch in life and his is wacky religion. If it was alcohol that would be very normal and acceptable in this country for some reason.

Jan_de_Bakker · 13-02-2017 09:18AM

Yes these are some positive things, but the fact that he has conversations with an imaginary friend and is insisting his sister will burn in agony for all eternity tells me there is also an unhealthy side.

Also he is over the breakup now and has a new job - time to drop the nonsense or at least not take it so seriously.

Jan_de_Bakker · 13-02-2017 11:04AM

robindch wrote: »

A mother describes losing her son to ISIS.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-37973246

Very sad, but I wonder what responsibility she should take, she became a Muslim - she obviously indoctrinated her child in the religion - the 1st step here.

recedite · 13-02-2017 08:16PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

What exactly is the hazard here?

One hazard is that the religion is driving a wedge between him and his friends/family. This is a very typical hazard of cults and religious fundamentalism.
Another is that its hard to get out of. Again fairly typical. In this case the fear of burning in hellfire seems to be exerting a powerful psychological influence. So much so, that he's being a bit of a pain in the ass by going around to his family and telling/threatening them about what lies in store for them if they don't repent.

As for business, well we don't know whether the improvement in that had anything to do with his new found religion, or whether it was just the general recession at the time was coming to an end.

Also we don't know how much of the money he is making now gets syphoned off into this church.

Peregrinus · 14-02-2017 01:22AM

recedite wrote: »

One hazard is that the religion is driving a wedge between him and his friends/family. This is a very typical hazard of cults and religious fundamentalism.

Nothing in Jan's posts suggest that there is a wedge being driven between this bloke and his family. They have inconsistent beliefs, obviously, but there is no suggestion that this is leading to a breakdown in functional relationships.

And, if there is a breakdown, that may be not so much a hazard of his belief, as a hazard of his family's unwillingness to accept and respect his right to form, express and live by his own beliefs.

recedite wrote: »

Another is that its hard to get out of. Again fairly typical. In this case the fear of burning in hellfire seems to be exerting a powerful psychological influence. So much so, that he's being a bit of a pain in the ass by going around to his family and telling/threatening them about what lies in store for them if they don't repent.

I can see why this is annoying to them, but I don't see why it's a hazard to him. As for being "hard to get out of", that can be the case with controlling religious cults, but there's no suggestion in Jan's post that this is such a cult. And, on the evidence, fervent evangelical Christianity isn't generally hard to leave; there are far more people who used to be fervent evangelical Christians than who currently are, and studies suggest it has a high "lapse" rate.

recedite wrote: »

As for business, well we don't know whether the improvement in that had anything to do with his new found religion, or whether it was just the general recession at the time was coming to an end.

I didn't say his religion contributed to his professional success; I don't know whether it did or not. But it's clearly not impeding his professional success; he is functioning successfully in employment/career terms. So, no evidence of hazard there, then.

recedite wrote: »

Also we don't know how much of the money he is making now gets syphoned off into this church.

Your ignorance on this point may be annoying to you, but it's hardly a hazard to him!

robindch · 14-02-2017 01:39PM

Jan_de_Bakker wrote: »

Very sad, but I wonder what responsibility she should take, she became a Muslim - she obviously indoctrinated her child in the religion - the 1st step here.

Yes, but is it worth pointing that out to her, or to other converts, or to the wider islamic and other religious communities?

In cases like this, people seem to prefer to lay the blame at the feet of the dead terrorist and an "incorrect interpretation" - rather than having to face a still-living mother or a still-living religion.

Pawwed Rig · 14-02-2017 02:20PM

I actually have a bit of sympathy for this guy. He would have been an outsider in every facet of his life. It might be understandable that he may have been a bit more into it than others if he thought he had to prove himself.

silverharp · 15-02-2017 11:23AM

robindch wrote: »

Yes, but is it worth pointing that out to her, or to other converts, or to the wider islamic and other religious communities?

In cases like this, people seem to prefer to lay the blame at the feet of the dead terrorist and an "incorrect interpretation" - rather than having to face a still-living mother or a still-living religion.

I must say in her case she appeared to be a good egg, she was working to keep extremism out of schools so I don't think she deserves any blame as such.

Going forward I wouldn't be adverse to using the argument against potential converts though. Its clear that Islam is a religion and a political philosophy and those ideas can have consequences.

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 03:01AM

silverharp wrote: »

Going forward I wouldn't be adverse to using the argument against potential converts though. Its clear that Islam is a religion and a political philosophy and those ideas can have consequences.

But the same could be said of any political philosophy. Hideous things have been done in the name of republicanism, in the name of independence, in the name of democracy, in the name of reason. I don't think the lesson can be that we should counsel people against republicanism, democracy, independence or rationalism; it's surely that we should counsel people against allowing ideology to lead them into doing hideous things.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 06:47AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

But the same could be said of any political philosophy. Hideous things have been done in the name of republicanism, in the name of independence, in the name of democracy, in the name of reason. I don't think the lesson can be that we should counsel people against republicanism, democracy, independence or rationalism; it's surely that we should counsel people against allowing ideology to lead them into doing hideous things.

I'd have a different approach to one of my kids saying they want to be a democrat versus one of them saying they want to be a Muslim :pac:

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 07:27AM

As would I.

But that may tell you more about us than it does about democracy or Islam. The fact is that those claiming to be democrats have killed a lot more people that those claiming to be Muslims.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 08:18AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

As would I.

But that may tell you more about us than it does about democracy or Islam. The fact is that those claiming to be democrats have killed a lot more people that those claiming to be Muslims.

take the example of Khalid Kelly , any other religion and he would be alive today so on a personal level I see a distinction . lets say one of my kids says they like Marxism, I'd have a but of fun with it, chances are theyd grow out of it and wouldnt do anymore than go to some silly marches. Islam would be a different kettle of fish entirely, buddhism would be fine, Catholicism well better the devil you know, happy clappy evangelical would be a bit roll eyes....
zooming out the microscope to say that everything is the same as everything else isnt the point.

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 08:25AM

Well, you know your kids better than I do, silverharp, and if you think that one of them might become a terrorist if he converted to Islam obviously that's a serious issue but - no offence - your problem in that situation wouldn't really be Islam, would it? A generation ago terrorism was being perpetrated by middle-class European kids who had embraced particular forms of marxism; a generation before that it was people who had embraced particular forms of nationalism; right now its particular forms of Islam; in a generation's time it will be particular forms of some other ideology which usually plays out in more benign ways.

Seriously, silverharp, the problem here is not the particular ideology which happens to be the fashion du jour for those who are impelled to violence.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 08:39AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, you know your kids better than I do, silverharp, and if you think that one of them might become a terrorist if he converted to Islam obviously that's a serious issue but - no offence - your problem in that situation wouldn't really be Islam, would it? A generation ago terrorism was being perpetrated by middle-class European kids who had embraced particular forms of marxism; a generation before that it was people who had embraced particular forms of nationalism; right now its particular forms of Islam; in a generation's time it will be particular forms of some other ideology which usually plays out in more benign ways.

Seriously, silverharp, the problem here is not the particular ideology which happens to be the fashion du jour for those who are impelled to violence.

while du jour might be true most ideologies go away after some political reform or economic changes, religion is a stickier thing and I dont see Islam going away any time soon. A parent being a marxist doesnt mean their kids would be, someone converting to Islam will propagate the religion to their kids.

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 08:45AM

silverharp wrote: »

while du jour might be true most ideologies go away after some political reform or economic changes, religion is a stickier thing and I dont see Islam going away any time soon. A parent being a marxist doesnt mean their kids would be, someone converting to Islam will propagate the religion to their kids.

Yes, but Islam has been around for more than 1300 years, and for most of that time is has been notably more peaceful and tolerant than, say, Christianity. Islam will almost certainly survive, but there is no reason to see it as posing a long-term threat of terrorism. Fashions move on; all our experience suggests that some other ideology will be filling this niche - and a few other niches that Islam currently fills, like being a popular target for the bigoted - in a few years time.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 09:15AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Yes, but Islam has been around for more than 1300 years, and for most of that time is has been notably more peaceful and tolerant than, say, Christianity. Islam will almost certainly survive, but there is no reason to see it as posing a long-term threat of terrorism. Fashions move on; all our experience suggests that some other ideology will be filling this niche - and a few other niches that Islam currently fills, like being a popular target for the bigoted - in a few years time.

what you say doesn't comfort me at all also outside of terrorism what about all the separatism and general exremism? , place your bets....

Peregrinus · 16-02-2017 09:19AM

silverharp wrote: »

what you say doesn't comfort me at all also outside of terrorism what about all the separatism and general exremism? , place your bets....

Well, again, separatism and "general extremism" are frequent features of conflicts in which Islam plays no role, both historically and right now. There's no unique connection there.

silverharp · 16-02-2017 09:50AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, again, separatism and "general extremism" are frequent features of conflicts in which Islam plays no role, both historically and right now. There's no unique connection there.

but why invite more opportunities? who knows what future history has in store? as far as I would guess having Islam in Europe reverting to some middle class Anglican church in the next 100 years is very remote. there is a heady mix of antipathy to western culture and values, lower educational attainment and a ghettoization which adds to the "us and them", that's just a recipe for future strife

robindch · 16-02-2017 05:20PM

Meanwhile, in Another Place, a bishop pressed the wrong button and accidentally voted against a controversial report on homosexuality and same-sex marriage.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38994125

It was caused by a "moment of distraction and some confusion", said the Reverend Cocksworth.

looksee · 16-02-2017 05:45PM

robindch wrote: »

Meanwhile, in Another Place, a bishop pressed the wrong button and accidentally voted against a controversial report on homosexuality and same-sex marriage.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38994125

It was caused by a "moment of distraction and some confusion", said the Reverend Cocksworth.

I'm not sayin' nuthin.

recedite · 16-02-2017 10:15PM

robindch wrote: »

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-38994125

It was caused by a "moment of distraction and some confusion", said the Reverend Cocksworth.

Probably one of the most confusing articles I have ever read, especially when Reverend Cocksworth says at the end.

the report was a "valuable road map" and he was "disappointed" by the vote's outcome.

Sadly the tabloids don't seem to have picked up on this story.

Hotblack Desiato · 17-02-2017 01:51AM

I know what a Jobsworth is...

The Hazards of Belief

Comments