How to improve Dublin Bus Services in 2017

thomasj · 09-01-2017 6:15pm

L1011 wrote:

Adding a few extras earlier/later is only a bare minimum. Core routes similar to the old weekday merged nitelinks should be 24/7. And I would be willing to pay the increased taxation to subsidise same.

I was told by a driver before that they are planning on bringing in gradually 24/7 on 16, 39/A and 46A first as a trial.

Cookie_Monster · 10-01-2017 9:59am

thomasj wrote: »

I was told by a driver before that they are planning on bringing in gradually 24/7 on 16, 39/A and 46A first as a trial.

what does gradually mean? few enough at first to prove it a failure and not bother going any further?

Just do it properly and run the two routes every 20-30 mins, 7 days a week minimum for 2 years and get a proper assessment of impact. A bus once a hour or once every two hours or just on weekend days is doomed to failure.

hytrogen · 10-01-2017 11:46am

n97 mini wrote:

Should religion impact on public transport? And FYI many US cities have service levels much lower than Dublin on Sundays.

No I agree it shouldn't but a seven day working lifestyle is ludacris and unhealthy.
Dundrum opens at 9am on Sundays with very low footfall until after 11am, Nutgrove a few miles away at noon with higher footfall.

Cookie_Monster wrote:

Lol, get real will you. We've left that rubbish in the past where it belongs

See above or do you need Cookie? :P

bigredone · 10-01-2017 11:54am

hytrogen wrote: »

Dundrum opens at 9am on Sundays with very low footfall until after 11am, Nutgrove a few miles away at noon with higher footfall.

That s the fact that some posters here will not accept, the first bus on Sunday gets a decent load, then the next ones are practically empty until 11.
I know this as i have driven many routes hundreds of times on a Sunday morning.
It would be a massive waste of money to run a earlier more frequent service.

Dravokivich · 10-01-2017 1:55pm

bigredone wrote: »

That s the fact that some posters here will not accept, the first bus on Sunday gets a decent load, then the next ones are practically empty until 11.
I know this as i have driven many routes hundreds of times on a Sunday morning.
It would be a massive waste of money to run a earlier more frequent service.

The idea of an earlier service is for those working, who are on those first buses. Or who have to struggle to find an alternative earlier than that. The frequency doesn't need to be anything significant in those early periods. Just that something is running.

Let the consumers trickle in at their own pace and those who run the shops can worry about that.

Phil.x · 11-01-2017 10:14pm

For the 39 I think they need a more direct route into town and less stops.
Something like a rush hour service where people walk a little further to the stops and in return get a more direct service.

thomasj · 11-01-2017 11:55pm

Phil.x wrote:

For the 39 I think they need a more direct route into town and less stops. Something like a rush hour service where people walk a little further to the stops and in return get a more direct service.

That's what BRT is meant to do

LeinsterDub · 12-01-2017 11:31am

Paint half the bus stop a different colour. They are off peak bus stops and will not be used between 7 and 9 and 4 and 6.30

loyatemu · 12-01-2017 11:36am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Paint half the bus stop a different colour. They are off peak bus stops and will not be used between 7 and 9 and 4 and 6.30

that's what the X buses (which only run during the peak) are supposed to do.

LeinsterDub · 12-01-2017 11:40am

loyatemu wrote: »

that's what the X buses (which only run during the peak) are supposed to do.

I talking about the entire network not just certain routes.

hmmm · 12-01-2017 12:01pm

sharper wrote: »

People wanting to get to Maynooth or Celbridge are left standing in the city centre hoping the next one in half an hour might at least have somewhere to stand while half empty ones are continuing on from Liffey Valley.

What do other countries do to address this problem?

It's great for people taking a short trip that there are 20 different buses to choose from, but it's unfair on the people who are going further and might only have 1 bus they can get.

Bray Head · 12-01-2017 12:13pm

hmmm wrote: »

sharper wrote: »

People wanting to get to Maynooth or Celbridge are left standing in the city centre hoping the next one in half an hour might at least have somewhere to stand while half empty ones are continuing on from Liffey Valley.

What do other countries do to address this problem?

They generally have much less bus stops entirely. And shorter, more frequent routes which allows for switching.
Also when you have clear maps at all bus stops and on buses then it is much easier to run express type services as the rules are clear to passengers.
It seemed madness to me that the 84X was not 'pick-up only' until at least Foxrock when I took it regularly 15 years ago. But it seems it is still the case today.

StreetLight · 12-01-2017 1:05pm

The timing of the Lucan Road buses is all wrong.

On plenty of occasions in Parkgate Street, I have observed a 66 or 67 going out to Maynooth, stuffed. Then about 5 minutes later a 66A or 66B with only a quarter load, even though it's covering a lot of the ground of a 66/67. Two minutes later a 25 or 26 then flies by carrying a only a handful.

sharper · 12-01-2017 1:49pm

hmmm wrote: »

What do other countries do to address this problem?

It's great for people taking a short trip that there are 20 different buses to choose from, but it's unfair on the people who are going further and might only have 1 bus they can get.

I don't know what other countries do, solutions have been mentioned by other posters.

If the busses had proper tag on/tag off it would give the NTA an enormous amount of usage data which could be used to optimise routes. They could then see people using longer routes for short journeys while the short routes that serve similar areas are half full.

The Xs used to discourage people from using them for short hops with the fare structure but the range of ticketing options makes it ineffective now.

Bray Head · 12-01-2017 2:16pm

sharper wrote: »

I don't know what other countries do, solutions have been mentioned by other posters.

If the busses had proper tag on/tag off it would give the NTA an enormous amount of usage data which could be used to optimise routes. They could then see people using longer routes for short journeys while the short routes that serve similar areas are half full.

I agree, but with pay-the-driver and use of middle doors tagging off as well as on would just slow the system down even more.

There are plenty of cities which collect less data than DB (because lots of people are on monthly tickets) yet still manage to have a better organised bus network.

You can gather the same data pretty much as effectively with the occasional census and surveys. I have no idea if DB carry these out.

sharper;102244914

The Xs used to discourage people from using them for short hops with the fare structure but the range of ticketing options makes it ineffective now.

Completely agree. Some incentive structure should be in place.

Dyr · 12-01-2017 2:27pm

bigredone wrote: »

Sunday start times, maybe a few here use the bus early sunday to get to work, but the fact is the rest of the population dont start to go out till arout 11, same on a saturday. It would be a waste of money putting on early service.
.

if public transport has a future then it has to provide a viable alternative to car ownership

Not getting out of the scratcher at weekends won't do that

Sooner we're using fully automated systems and certain stakeholders go the way of the dodo the better

Vic_08 · 12-01-2017 3:26pm

hmmm wrote: »

What do other countries do to address this problem?

It's great for people taking a short trip that there are 20 different buses to choose from, but it's unfair on the people who are going further and might only have 1 bus they can get.

Most longer Dublin Bus routes used to have minimum fares on peak departures from the city.

Short journey passengers could still use them but they'd have to pay the higher fare to the outer suburbs.

This is no longer effective with Leap capping, reduced fare bands and of course the ubiquitous free travel pass holders.

The only viable solution now is to make them limited stop or pick-up only for part of the route, not something DB has ever done well, even the X routes don't really work well for discouraging short journeys.

Vic_08 · 12-01-2017 3:30pm

Bambi wrote: »

if public transport has a future then it has to provide a viable alternative to car ownership

Not getting out of the scratcher at weekends won't do that

Sooner we're using fully automated systems and certain stakeholders go the way of the dodo the better

If that is a swipe at the staff then you are wide of the mark, there is no resistance to extra Sunday working from staff or unions. Sunday is OT rates so there are plenty of drivers only to happy to get more Sunday shifts which are scarce enough as it is.

end of the road · 12-01-2017 3:47pm

Bambi wrote: »

if public transport has a future then it has to provide a viable alternative to car ownership

Not getting out of the scratcher at weekends won't do that

Sooner we're using fully automated systems and certain stakeholders go the way of the dodo the better

the "certain stakeholders" will still be existing automated systems or not. automated systems will still call for people in operations and on board supervisors.

BonnieSituation · 12-01-2017 4:33pm

Using someone's observation of the Lucan road buses. Perhaps limiting stopping to city centre and then Liffey valley between 4 and 7 would discourage palmerstown and Chapelizod residents from using them. This in conjunction with only using the N4 at these times And expanding the 26 would solve that issue.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 12-01-2017 9:57pm

Vic_08 wrote: »

If that is a swipe at the staff then you are wide of the mark, there is no resistance to extra Sunday working from staff or unions. Sunday is OT rates so there are plenty of drivers only to happy to get more Sunday shifts which are scarce enough as it is.

I think we need to get rid of Sunday overtime to get more Sunday shifts.

BonnieSituation · 12-01-2017 11:18pm

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I think we need to get rid of Sunday overtime to get more Sunday shifts.

I think Dublin Bus staff should consider themselves lucky to have a job and perhaps minimum wage is all they're worth.

While we're at it, uniforms should be made out of sack cloth.

lucernarian · 12-01-2017 11:42pm

Bray Head wrote: »

I agree, but with pay-the-driver and use of middle doors tagging off as well as on would just slow the system down even more.

I can't understand this part at all. By doubling the entry and exit points on the bus, how would it slow down things?

Also, I suspect the time taken to tag off would be more than offset by the saved time in boarding, owing to the slow speed of the existing wayfarer.

Also, I'd think there's a lot to be said for tagging off and on at bus stops, with an additional "tagged on status" check when boarding to ensure passengers have paid. Then you get the best of both worlds, and no need to have exit validators that slow disembarkation. Setting that up at every bus stop would cost a fortune though

Vic_08 · 13-01-2017 12:28am

lucernarian wrote: »

I can't understand this part at all. By doubling the entry and exit points on the bus, how would it slow down things?

Also, I suspect the time taken to tag off would be more than offset by the saved time in boarding, owing to the slow speed of the existing wayfarer.

Also, I'd think there's a lot to be said for tagging off and on at bus stops, with an additional "tagged on status" check when boarding to ensure passengers have paid. Then you get the best of both worlds, and no need to have exit validators that slow disembarkation. Setting that up at every bus stop would cost a fortune though

And sadly they would be completely exposed to the usual element that make providing any unattended public amenity a chore. In certain areas you wouldn't be able to keep the things operational.

Kyleboy · 13-01-2017 6:19am

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I think we need to get rid of Sunday overtime to get more Sunday shifts.

Why don't you get them faster buses and pay them minimum wage?

BrianG23 · 13-01-2017 7:03am

An emergency axe should be available to passengers in distress of knack bags

StreetLight · 13-01-2017 11:28am

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

I think we need to get rid of Sunday overtime to get more Sunday shifts.

I think people who have a Monday to Friday attitude should have to work a Sunday too, free of charge. :rolleyes:

RainMakerToo · 13-01-2017 9:14pm

It'd be nice if they realised the 1970s idea of "Rush hour" doesn't really exist anymore, but all the normal route timetables seem to assume everybody goes to work between 8 and 9 and comes home between 5 and 6

Slutmonkey57b · 13-01-2017 11:08pm

Traffic patterns prove they do. It just lasts 2 hours now instead of 1.

D8 boy · 14-01-2017 12:04am

For medium-large cities, flat fare systems do not generate as much revenue as a zonal or graduated fare system. Large cities with a flat fare typically provide much higher subsidy for their bus systems. For example, in 2007, the subsidy to bus services in Brussels, which has a flat fare, was 68% of costs, compared with 29% in Dublin.

However, a graduated fare system does not have to mean driver interaction.
In Dutch cities, the buses have a graduated fare system using a system similar to the Luas or trains it Dublin. You tag on when you board and tag off at the exit when you alight; the system deducts a standard fare when you board, calculates the appropriate fare when you leave and rebates the card as required. The validators seem much faster than the ones in Dublin, BTW. Only passengers without a Leap card equivalent have to go near the driver, who can issue a rather pricey 1 hour ticket.

For Dublin if all buses were 2 door and proper London/Amsterdam-speed validators were applied at the foot and centre doors, the process could be changed to get passengers to tag on and off as in the Netherlands. The current graduated structure could be retained and a simple (high) cash fare charged for the odd (in all senses) passenger who does not have a Leap card. All single door buses will need to be replaced eventually as will the current validators so the net capital costs would be low.

How to improve Dublin Bus Services in 2017

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