The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

robinph · 09-01-2017 05:46PM

hinault wrote: »

Gravitational force conditions are precise.

So what? It does nothing to prove a supreme being set things in motion.

Delirium · 09-01-2017 05:50PM

hinault wrote: »

Gravitational force conditions are precise.

Can you explain how 'gravitational force conditions are precise'?

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 05:56PM

Delirium wrote: »

Can you explain how 'gravitational force conditions are precise'?

If they were slightly different the resulting universe would be unstable and we wouldn't exist on it.

The universe we do exist on is suitable however. By definition it kind of has to be.

hinault · 09-01-2017 07:55PM

robinph wrote: »

So what? It does nothing to prove a supreme being set things in motion.

That precision points to the fact that the creation of the Universe his highly ordered.
That precision refutes totally the hypothesis that the Universe's creation was random and by chance.

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 09:07PM

[quote="hinault;102212643"
That precision refutes totally the hypothesis that the Universe's creation was random and by chance.[/quote]

It 100% does not. Not even a little bit.

robinph · 09-01-2017 09:11PM

hinault wrote: »

robinph wrote: »

So what? It does nothing to prove a supreme being set things in motion.

That precision points to the fact that the creation of the Universe his highly ordered.
That precision refutes totally the hypothesis that the Universe's creation was random and by chance.

Nope. It just proves that we exist in the universe with those conditions. Nothing more.

J C · 09-01-2017 09:26PM

Harika wrote: »

Which gods fall into this category?

The God of the Bible ... and any other God that is regarded as an omnipotent, omniscient and transcendent personal Divine Being who created the Universe and everything therein.

I have never heard of any other God in accord with this description ... have you?

J C · 09-01-2017 09:30PM

pajo1981 wrote: »

Strangely enough, guys like you having access to our kids education upsets some people.

... mainstream Churches who have access to childrens' education in their schools also upsets some people.
The current issue over religious instruction in church-run schools in Ireland, is a good example.

... so I guess I'm in good company, when it comes to upsetting some people !!!:)

hinault · 09-01-2017 09:33PM

robinph wrote:

So what? It does nothing to prove a supreme being set things in motion

hinault wrote: »

That precision points to the fact that the creation of the Universe his highly ordered.
That precision refutes totally the hypothesis that the Universe's creation was random and by chance.

robinph wrote:

Nope. It just proves that we exist in the universe with those conditions. Nothing more.

Naw.

Given the precision of the measurement on such a vast scale as the diameter of the uinverse, it's precision obliterates entirely the hypothesis that creation of the Universe is random and accidental.

Science at one time contended that the creation of the universe was accidental:D

The design precision actually point to the Universe as being finely tuned to a scale which is difficult to comprehend, never mind to engineer.

If you could extend a measure tape across the diameter of the entire Universe. One mark on that measurement denotes the precise gravitational force necessary to create this entire universe.
If that mark is moved more than one inch in either direction along that scale measurement of our Universe, the gravitational force would be altered thus preventing this Universe to exist.

J C · 09-01-2017 09:39PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

What is this based on? The last time Man tried to get some knowledge god kicked him out of Eden.

God does not want us to know anything, except him. Don't question, just have faith. Don't look for answers, pray.

That is what all the evidence of the bible tells us about God. Suddenly, now god has decided that knowledge is important so is giving it to us in small, mainly contradictory means.

It wasn't just 'some knowledge' that Adam and Eve obtained ... but specifically the knowledge of evil (with some knowledge of good thrown in to 'sweeten the pill').

God has no issue with us pursuing and using knowledge for good ... it's the pursuit and use of knowledge for evil ends, that God has a (very serious) problem with.

Indeed, all decent Human Societies share this concern about anybody pursuing evil.

Harika · 09-01-2017 09:40PM

J C wrote: »

The God of the Bible ... and any other God that is regarded as the omnipotent, omniscient and transcendent personal God who created the Universe and everything therein.

I have never heard of any other God in accord with this description ... have you?

Shiva fullfills all criterias. Buddha does too btw

J C · 09-01-2017 09:57PM

Harika wrote: »

Shiva fullfills all criterias. Buddha does too btw

It has never been claimed that Shiva and/or Buddha created the Universe and all life therein ... so they don't fullfill these criteria.:)

Harika · 09-01-2017 10:22PM

J C wrote: »

It has never been claimed that Shiva and/or Buddha created the Universe and all life therein ... so they don't fullfill these criteria.:)

Shiva is seen as the Supreme being who creates, protects and transforms the universe, Hindus don't see the universe with a beginning but a constant birth and death. Thats very similar to some schools of Buddhism that think Buddha is the creator of everything, there are two more schools to be fair that don't believe that.

J C · 09-01-2017 10:44PM

Harika wrote: »

Shiva is seen as the Supreme being who creates, protects and transforms the universe, Hindus don't see the universe with a beginning but a constant birth and death. Thats very similar to some schools of Buddhism that think Buddha is the creator of everything, there are two more schools to be fair that don't believe that.

It isn't claimed that Shiva created the Universe ... it's merely claimed that he 'fiddles with/changes' an already existing Universe ... a type of 'Theistic Evolution', if you will.

... and Gautama Buddha died in 483 BC aged 80 years in the city of Kusinara ... so he didn't create the Universe nor did he claim to ... and he dismissed all discussion of how the Universe came to be, as irrelevant.

Panrich · 09-01-2017 10:58PM

hinault wrote: »

Naw.

Given the precision of the measurement on such a vast scale as the diameter of the uinverse, it's precision obliterates entirely the hypothesis that creation of the Universe is random and accidental.

Science at one time contended that the creation of the universe was accidental:D

The design precision actually point to the Universe as being finely tuned to a scale which is difficult to comprehend, never mind to engineer.

If you could extend a measure tape across the diameter of the entire Universe. One mark on that measurement denotes the precise gravitational force necessary to create this entire universe.
If that mark is moved more than one inch in either direction along that scale measurement of our Universe, the gravitational force would be altered thus preventing this Universe to exist.

You just need to think bigger to resolve the issues. Consider the possibility of billions of universes springing into life, all with different rules and laws of physics.

If life is to evolve on any of these universes, it will need to be one that has the golden ticket of a stable environment to allow it to develop and prosper. All other unstable universes collapse, explode or die before enough time elapses to foster life. Ergo the fact that we are here means that we are the celestial lottery winnners.

J C · 09-01-2017 11:20PM

Panrich wrote: »

You just need to think bigger to resolve the issues. Consider the possibility of billions of universes springing into life, all with different rules and laws of physics.

If life is to evolve on any of these universes, it will need to be one that has the golden ticket of a stable environment to allow it to develop and prosper. All other unstable universes collapse, explode or die before enough time elapses to foster life. Ergo the fact that we are here means that we are the celestial lottery winnners.

Multi-verses, golden lottery tickets and other things with just about as much credibility as the Flying Spaghetti Monster (that evolutionists also invented)!!!
... great science fiction indeed.:)

... however, when it comes to real cutting edge science ... Creation Scientists do it !!!:):D

hinault · 09-01-2017 11:26PM

Panrich wrote: »

You just need to think bigger to resolve the issues. Consider the possibility of billions of universes springing into life, all with different rules and laws of physics.

If life is to evolve on any of these universes, it will need to be one that has the golden ticket of a stable environment to allow it to develop and prosper. All other unstable universes collapse, explode or die before enough time elapses to foster life. Ergo the fact that we are here means that we are the celestial lottery winnners.

Possibilities

There is zero-basis for presuming that billions of universes were created.

The fact that this universe is so finely tuned points to something/someone who is responsible for creating the conditions which allow for the universe to be created and which allow for the universe to develop in the way that it has.

Panrich · 09-01-2017 11:26PM

J C wrote: »

Multi-verses, golden lottery tickets and other things with just about as much credibility as the Flying Spaghetti Monster (that evolutionists also invented)!!!
... great science fiction indeed.:)

... however, when it comes to real cutting edge science ... Creation Scientists do it !!!:):D

I do realise that my suggestion does not require a magic man to create the rules of our particular universe so it will automatically have less appeal to those who crave a father figure ðŸ’¥

Panrich · 09-01-2017 11:32PM

hinault wrote: »

Possibilities
There is zero-basis for presuming that billions of universes were created.

The fact that this universe is so finely tuned points to something/someone who is responsible for creating the conditions which allow for the universe to be created and which allow for the universe to develop in the way that it has.

As for zero basis, It has the very real benefit that it dispenses with dependence on magic. This is the problem. Creationist thinking seems to be limiting. One God. One universe. We're special. It's all created just for us. Expand your mind to explore new ideas.

J C · 09-01-2017 11:38PM

Panrich wrote: »

I do realise that my suggestion does not require a magic man to create the rules of our particular universe so it will automatically have less appeal to those who crave a father figure ðŸ’¥

Your 'suggestions' belong in the realm of the Flying Spaghetti Monster ... which, if it is of masculine gender, could indeed provide a kind of 'magic man' for any Evolutionist craving a father figure.:D

... for the rest of us, it's the God of the Bible.:)

hinault · 09-01-2017 11:45PM

Panrich wrote: »

As for zero basis, It has the very real benefit that it dispenses with dependence on magic. This is the problem. Creationist thinking seems to be limiting. One God. One universe. We're special. It's all created just for us. Expand your mind to explore new ideas.

The evidence shows that the universe is fine tuned. That is evidence that we see before us. I listed how precise just one part of that fine tuning is.

There is zero evidence for your contention about multiple universes being created.

So expand your mind to try to comprehend the evidence that is there, and not waste time speculating about hypotheses which are based on zero evidence.

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-01-2017 11:48PM

hinault wrote: »

The evidence shows that the universe is fine tuned. That is evidence that we see before us. I listed how precise just one part of that fine tuning is.

There is zero evidence for your contention about multiple universes being created.

So expand your mind to try to comprehend the evidence that is there, and not waste time speculating about hypotheses which are based on zero evidence.

So where does chaos come from?

Exploding stars?

Black holes?

Extinction level (meteor) events?

Let me guess,

"god" did it:rolleyes:

J C · 09-01-2017 11:56PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So where does chaos come from?

Exploding stars?

Black holes?

Extinction level (meteor) events?

Let me guess,

"god" did it:rolleyes:

Chaos ultimately comes from the Fall.

When living systems become chaotic ... the afflicted organism gets very ill ... or dies.

hinault · 09-01-2017 11:57PM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

So where does chaos come from?

Exploding stars?

Black holes?

Extinction level (meteor) events?

Let me guess,

"god" did it:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
They're a consequence of fine tuning.

What you describe is the life cycle of stars. It's not chaos.
Besides if everything created didn't die, how cluttered would the Universe be?

Panrich · 10-01-2017 12:09AM

hinault wrote: »

The evidence shows that the universe is fine tuned. That is evidence that we see before us. I listed how precise just one part of that fine tuning is.

There is zero evidence for your contention about multiple universes being created.

So expand your mind to try to comprehend the evidence that is there, and not waste time speculating about hypotheses which are based on zero evidence.

I've considered the evidence and concluded that the only reason life can exist in this universe is because the rules of the universe allow it.

The existence of a God is based on zero evidence much like my earlier suggestion that if one universe can pop into existence then so can many others. The difference between the two possibilities is that we are already living in the result of one such event as accepted by science. So I can easily conceive of such an event happening more than once. Unfortunately we have yet to see a God make his presence known in any verifiable way.

J C · 10-01-2017 12:21AM

Panrich wrote: »

The existence of a God is based on zero evidence much like my earlier suggestion that if one universe can pop into existence then so can many others.

If one Universe did 'pop into existence' then logically other Universes might also do so.

However, we observe only one Universe ... and it defies logic to believe that it simply 'popped into existence' i.e. spontaneously and out of nothing.

Because your suggestion (that one universe can pop into existence) is logically impossible ... your follow-on deduction (that so too can many other universes) is also logically impossible.

However, the existence of God is a logical deduction from the need for an Ultimate Cause for everything ... and the presence of inordinate amounts of Complex Functional Specified Information (CFSI) in life.

hinault · 10-01-2017 12:48AM

Panrich wrote: »

I've considered the evidence and concluded that the only reason life can exist in this universe is because the rules of the universe allow it.

Life exists in this Universe because the Universe is highly ordered to such a degree that the human mind can barely comprehend it's precision, and to such a degree that humanity could never possibly hope to engineer.

One problem for Evolutionists is their inability to justify how the precision of the Universe that we know occurs.

I don't believe that you have considered the evidence.

looksee · 10-01-2017 01:57AM

However, we observe only one Universe ... and it defies logic to believe that it simply 'popped into existence' i.e. spontaneously and out of nothing.

But isn't that what the bible teaches? God spoke and things 'popped into existence'. Out of nothing. Or was there something there that isn't mentioned in the bible that God reorganised into material objects? Surely the whole basis of faith is that you accept things that defy logic?

Delirium · 10-01-2017 09:44AM

hinault wrote: »

Life exists in this Universe because the Universe is highly ordered to such a degree that the human mind can barely comprehend it's precision, and to such a degree that humanity could never possibly hope to engineer.

One problem for Evolutionists is their inability to justify how the precision of the Universe that we know occurs.

I don't believe that you have considered the evidence.

You do realise that evolution has nothing to do with how planets/universes form? It explains how mutations occur over generations of organisms.

Delirium · 10-01-2017 09:49AM

J C wrote: »

If one Universe did 'pop into existence' then logically other Universes might also do so.

However, we observe only one Universe ... and it defies logic to believe that it simply 'popped into existence' i.e. spontaneously and out of nothing.

Because your suggestion (that one universe can pop into existence) is logically impossible ... your follow-on deduction (that so too can many other universes) is also logically impossible.

However, the existence of God is a logical deduction from the need for an Ultimate Cause for everything ... and the presence of inordinate amounts of Complex Functional Specified Information (CFSI) in life.

googles term......

first result......

Specified complexity is a concept proposed by William Dembski and used by him and others to promote the pseudoscientific arguments of intelligent design.

Source

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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