Recruitment for British army soars in Republic of Ireland

Lt Dan · 09-01-2017 04:46PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

go away with your self righteous bollocks.

If Churchill had really wanted to seize the ports, he would have. It was a contingency plan, if even that.

That rather undermines the whole apparent point of Britain's involvement in World War 2. Saving democracy and small countries.

De Valera had to put Churchill in his box over that in response to Churchill's victory speech.

Considering Churchill and Llyod George struggled to knock out a small IRA unit twenty years before...... Ha

Germany would have had a field day with the propaganda value,Ireland might have called in the Germans and that would have wasted valuable resources of Britain with another front. Moreover,despite hostility with Irish Americans over Irish Neutrality, there would have been uproar in the US.

You don't half talk a lot of rubbish sometimes

A Little Pony · 09-01-2017 04:49PM

Just read the last few pages, I have to say Maryishere has just absolutely destroyed her opposition in this thread. At one point I was saying go easy on them. Jesus..

MRnotlob606 · 09-01-2017 04:52PM

Boards comments are very pedantic and often pointless. I don't how people can divert their precious energy into creating monolitic blocks of texts with sub-quotes, video links. and paraphrases etc... But whatever floats your boat

Fratton Fred · 09-01-2017 05:02PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Germany was not Ireland's enemy. "collusion" was to invade Northern Ireland" something the South waffled on about for a long time. Like it or not,I am not sure that many in Ireland or government would consider him a traitor

the CCTV and fences to prevent his statue being vandalised would say other wise.

Lt Dan wrote: »

Fred,you are being incredibly disengenious ,waffling about victims of Nazis. Britain had little or no concern about them . They went to war as they saw Germany wanted another go and because Britain's interests,even existence was at threat !

not really, Hitler had no designs on western europe, or Britains colonies and realms. There were numerous times when Britain could have opted out, but thanks to Churchill, they didn't.

Lt Dan wrote: »

Britain can never lecture anyone considering their own colonial past and treatment of natives. These are unrebuttable facts. Britain sent Polish air pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain, to their inevitable internment and risk of death back in USSR occupies Poland.

do you feel better now that's off your chest?

Lt Dan wrote: »

Moreover, Britain was not particularly receiptive to taking in Jewish refugees !!! Those that arrived experienced anti semitism and anti german abuse. In 1938 Britain stopped letting in Jewish refugees from Germany.

Britain didn't do much, but it did a hell of a lot more than most other countries. BTW, the first Kinder Transport was in december 1938 and continued until 1940 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005260

That was after Nicholas Winton's own smaller version https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/01/sir-nicholas-winton

Lt Dan wrote: »

Germany had nothing to do with us. The Irish government spent more time worrying about Britain and in particular the US ,invading Ireland. Both of whom flat out refused to promise that they would respect our neutrality.

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Lt Dan · 09-01-2017 05:08PM

maryishere wrote: »

lol. The Dail would have adjouned to for less and greater reasons...then as now not exactly the most respected or prolific bunch of people in the universe.

What the Americans and Allied powers would have expected by the time of Roosevelts death in '45 was for Ireland to open up its ports to help the defenders of the Atlantic convoys. Many hundreds of allied lives would have been saved, with little or no risk of retaliation from the then almost defeated Germany. Hitler had invaded neutral countries early in the war : 1945 was time for us to thank the Allied powers for saving us from Nazism, and make some small contribution on an official basis.

Are you always so insistent on talking rubbish and leaving facts out ? By 1945 , Britain had control of the Atlantic.Their efforts to pressure Ireland had greatly reduced and they still had fords up the North. They no longer needed the ports in the South.

Little or no risk of retailation ? Ye,Belfast had a lovley time,didn't they?

De Valera's diplomacy with both nations saved us from Nazism and the Brits,just like your pals in Sweden and Switzerland...both of whom were closer to the front line

FrancieBrady · 09-01-2017 05:11PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Are you always so insistent on talking rubbish and leaving facts out ? By 1945 , Britain had control of the Atlantic.Their efforts to pressure Ireland had greatly reduced and they still had fords up the North. They no longer needed the ports in the South.

Little or no risk of retailation ? Ye,Belfast had a lovley time,didn't they?

De Valera's diplomacy with both nations saved us from Nazism and the Brits,just like your pals in Sweden and Switzerland...both of whom were closer to the front line

And the point ignored by Mary, Fred and Pony is that within the confines of a constitutional neutrality(that he couldn't change even if he wanted to) Dev did everything he could to assist the Allies.

As previously stated, I have little time for Dev and his party but he played the war and particularly the arrogant bullying Churchill magnificently.

Lt Dan · 09-01-2017 05:15PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Just read the last few pages, I have to say Maryishere has just absolutely destroyed her opposition in this thread. At one point I was saying go easy on them. Jesus..

Then I feel sorry for you and her. You publicly are appaulding utter stupidity . Basic facts are irrelevant to you lot. Bless. Suffice to say,yer opinions are irrelevant and it won't change the past,nor did the past harm Ireland .

Mary,bless her, has proven time and time again that arguming her case without resort to dealing with what is actually said is beyond her.

But,well done you.

Hans Bricks · 09-01-2017 05:17PM

MRnotlob606 wrote: »

Boards comments are very pedantic and often pointless. I don't how people can divert their precious energy into creating monolitic blocks of texts with sub-quotes, video links. and paraphrases etc... But whatever floats your boat

Would you stop.

"Do you have links and peer reviewed evidence from reputable sites and journals according to my standards in order to verify your claims on what your 2nd cousin witnessed during a rainy night on a one way street in ballyhaunis circa 1981?"

No I don't. Now **** off you hermit.

Fratton Fred · 09-01-2017 05:18PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

And the point ignored by Mary, Fred and Pony is that within the confines of a constitutional neutrality(that he couldn't change even if he wanted to).

what constitutional neutrality?

Glenster · 09-01-2017 05:18PM

maryishere wrote: »

You do not need a time machine to know what Hitler did. Indeed I have visited some of his extermination camps on the continent. Indeed I have chatted about DeValera ( offering condolences on the death of Hitler ) with dozens of Irish people ( who were alive in 1945 ) and all were disappointed with DeValera, some more so than others. Some had friends of relations who were among the hundreds of thousands who helped the allied war effort in some way.

He was just following the rules.

As a head of state you are obliged to offer your condolences on the death of another head of state, its the done thing.
Its nothing to do with the individuals involved.

Maybe it is an example of someone showing respect for (not admiration of) someone he fundamentally disagreed with. It doesn't matter.

It was civil, it was mature, it was respectful. Its something that is lacking in modern politics.

Fratton Fred · 09-01-2017 05:19PM

Glenster wrote: »

It was civil, it was mature, it was respectful. Its something that is lacking in modern politics.

As is genocide

FrancieBrady · 09-01-2017 05:27PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what constitutional neutrality?

Correct, it is not written into the constitution but it is government policy and has cross party support.

Glenster · 09-01-2017 05:29PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

As is genocide

Wrong.

Lt Dan · 09-01-2017 05:33PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the CCTV and fences to prevent his statue being vandalised would say other wise.

not really, Hitler had no designs on western europe, or Britains colonies and realms. There were numerous times when Britain could have opted out, but thanks to Churchill, they didn't.

do you feel better now that's off your chest?

Britain didn't do much, but it did a hell of a lot more than most other countries. BTW, the first Kinder Transport was in december 1938 and continued until 1940 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005260

That was after Nicholas Winton's own smaller version https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/01/sir-nicholas-winton

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

You are relying ,as evidence of people's beliefs that he was a traitor ,on a tiny tiny tiny minority of left wing nut jobs who never had a voice and never will have a voice in Irish life that will be considered actually relevant. I'd wager quiet alot of people in Fairview don't even know who he was ! Even nazi lovers had cut one of his arms off earlier because they thought he was giving a communist sign,lol.

I see that you have failed to deal with the fact that Russell was not a Nazi. Most Irish people know that and know what he was at. Stupid and dangerous for Ireland ,yes,but not a Nazi. If Britain really thought that Russell was a danager and that Ireland was really awash with Nazis ,they and US would have invaded

Michael Collins ancesterial home in Cork was often vandalised . Few call him a traitor.

Yes,Adolf had no intention of taking over Britain,he respected them,but Britain was not prepared to habe a strong Germany. With France,Britain had some control -Thus ,Britain's interests were at stake. I note that you have nothing to say aboit the fact that Britain's main priority was not victims of Nazi persecution

When you start talking rubbish about Ireland ignoring what went on to people in Europe and you parading Britain as some beacon, it is envitable that home truths have to be put forward .Which, you wisely decided to ignore

Yes ,they brought in kids but did not give visas to tje parents to work. Almost rather redundant. How can one care for kids if parents are unable to.

As for the last crap. No one came to aid Ireland militarily when they were seeking Independence. Germany had nothing to do with us. Treaty of Versaile almost crippled Germany after WW1.(not sire what else could have been done to be fair and the Crash in the 1920s put the nail in tje coffin) It was envitable some looney would try again. Compare how the Allies dealt with Germany after World War 2

Come off it. Britain did not go to war because of their concern for jews or other groups. People like Churchill jad the foresight to realise that Hitler was crazy amd their regime was in conflict with British society

Lt Dan · 09-01-2017 05:42PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Correct, it is not written into the constitution but it is government policy and has cross party support.

Fine Gael people might not agree

Fratton Fred · 09-01-2017 05:52PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

You are relying ,as evidence of people's beliefs that he was a traitor ,on a tiny tiny tiny minority of left wing nut jobs who never had a voice and never will have a voice in Irish life that will be considered actually relevant. I'd wager quiet alot of people in Fairview don't even know who he was ! Even nazi lovers had cut one of his arms off earlier because they thought he was giving a communist sign,lol.

I see that you have failed to deal with the fact that Russell was not a Nazi. Most Irish people know that and know what he was at. Stupid and dangerous for Ireland ,yes,but not a Nazi. If Britain really thought that Russell was a danager and that Ireland was really awash with Nazis ,they and US would have invaded

Michael Collins ancesterial home in Cork was often vandalised . Few call him a traitor.

I didn't say Russell was a nazi, but he colluded with them to invade Ireland. What he was prepared to offer up in support of that, no one knows.

Lt Dan wrote: »

Yes,Adolf had no intention of taking over Britain,he respected them,but Britain was not prepared to habe a strong Germany. With France,Britain had some control -Thus ,Britain's interests were at stake. I note that you have nothing to say aboit the fact that Britain's main priority was not victims of Nazi persecution

Britain's main priority was to stop Hitler and the nazi regime.

Jesus, one minute Britain is getting grief for not stopping in when he went in the Rhine, now the reasons why they stepped in are being questioned.

You can see why this is a it frustrating, can't you?

Lt Dan wrote: »

When you start talking rubbish about Ireland ignoring what went on to people in Europe and you parading Britain as some beacon, it is envitable that home truths have to be put forward .Which, you wisely decided to ignore

please show me where this has happened?

Lt Dan wrote: »

Yes ,they brought in kids but did not give visas to tje parents to work. Almost rather redundant. How can one care for kids if parents are unable to.

the kids were wwell looked after (which kind of goes against the anti semetic rubbish you wrote earlier. Yeah, the parets should have been able to come as well, but would you have preferred 10,000 jews of all ages, of 10,000 jewish children? I would give up my place on the train if I thought it would save a child.

Lt Dan wrote: »

As for the last crap. No one came to aid Ireland militarily when they were seeking Independence. Germany had nothing to do with us.

ok. fine. But there was nothing noble about staying out of the fight. Thankfully the US didn't adopt the same attitude.

Lt Dan wrote: »

Treaty of Versaile almost crippled Germany after WW1.(not sire what else could have been done to be fair and the Crash in the 1920s put the nail in tje coffin) It was envitable some looney would try again. Compare how the Allies dealt with Germany after World War 2

Come off it. Britain did not go to war because of their concern for jews or other groups. People like Churchill jad the foresight to realise that Hitler was crazy amd their regime was in conflict with British society

The regime was in conflict with the european way of life. Someone had to stop him.

FrancieBrady · 09-01-2017 06:00PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

ok. fine. But there was nothing noble about staying out of the fight.

Yes there was. He saved many many Irish people by staying out and the country from being bombed back to the stone age.
We had nothing to offer of any substance and they got 100,000 men too.

I value our neutrality and I believe it has been a force for good in the world. I don't expect supporters of a predominantly warmongering state to get that though.

Fratton Fred · 09-01-2017 06:29PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I value our neutrality and I believe it has been a force for good in the world.

you do say some funny things

FrancieBrady · 09-01-2017 06:33PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

you do say some funny things

As I said, I wouldn't expect you to understand that...and you didn't.

Fratton Fred · 09-01-2017 06:39PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

As I said, I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Seriously dude, no one outside of Ireland gives two ****es about Ireland's supposed neutrality:rolleyes:

FrancieBrady · 09-01-2017 06:43PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Seriously dude, no one outside of Ireland gives two ****es about Ireland's supposed neutrality:rolleyes:

I'm not outside Ireland. So there you go.

feargale · 09-01-2017 07:42PM

Glenster wrote: »

He was just following the rules.
As a head of state you are obliged to offer your condolences on the death of another head of state, its the done thing.
Its nothing to do with the individuals involved.
Maybe it is an example of someone showing respect for (not admiration of) someone he fundamentally disagreed with. It doesn't matter.
It was civil, it was mature, it was respectful. Its something that is lacking in modern politics.

One has to put this in context. During the war US ambassador to Ireland David Gray behaved despicably in diplomatic terms and crossed the line in his attempts to bully Dev into abandoning neutrality. Senior lecturer in U.S. Foreign Policy, Timothy J. Lynch, has observed that 'his animus towards his host nation made Gray atypical of American ambassadors in Dublin'.
By contrast the German minister Eduard Hempel behaved impeccably as a diplomat. Prior to his appointment, the Irish External Affairs ministry had specified that they did not want a Nazi party member as diplomatic representative; the solution to this requirement appears to have been to appoint a person who was not a member of the party, but made to join the following year i.e. 1938. Dev's gesture was a courtesy to Hempel, a decent man, rather than a tribute to Hitler.
It's difficult to understand the Brits' hang-up over Irish neutrality, especially given that it was emphatically allies-leaning in contrast to the Nazi-friendly neutrality of Switzerland, Sweden and Portugal. As recently as last year Ben McIntyre had another go at it in the Times.
I have read comments that Ireland should have rowed in as a part of the English-speaking world i.e. code for British Empire. The Brits need to get over the fact that Ireland seceded in 1922 and exercised its prerogative of neutrality in 1939. Dev can be criticised for many things, but, agree or disagree with it, neutrality was his call. It is not customary for countries to ally themselves in war with those with whom they were in military conflict with less than two decades previously. And to have done so could have led to civil war in Ireland, as Dev well knew.
In saying this I appreciate that Britain has only recently begun to forgive the Yankees for breaking away. I suppose we will have to wait a little longer.

kingchess · 09-01-2017 08:21PM

Was it not Germany who declared war on the US?,they stayed neutral (in name only)up to that point,but did supply goods and war material to the UK,USSR and China. And was not the ex King Edward viii an ardent Nazi who gave full nazi salute to Hitler??

FrancieBrady · 09-01-2017 08:25PM

feargale wrote: »

One has to put this in context. During the war US ambassador to Ireland David Gray behaved despicably in diplomatic terms and crossed the line in his attempts to bully Dev into abandoning neutrality. Senior lecturer in U.S. Foreign Policy, Timothy J. Lynch, has observed that 'his animus towards his host nation made Gray atypical of American ambassadors in Dublin'.
By contrast the German minister Eduard Hempel behaved impeccably as a diplomat. Prior to his appointment, the Irish External Affairs ministry had specified that they did not want a Nazi party member as diplomatic representative; the solution to this requirement appears to have been to appoint a person who was not a member of the party, but made to join the following year i.e. 1938. Dev's gesture was a courtesy to Hempel, a decent man, rather than a tribute to Hitler.
It's difficult to understand the Brit's hang-up over Irish neutrality, especially given that it was emphatically allies-leaning in contrast to the Nazi-friendly neutrality of Switzerland, Sweden and Portugal. As recently as last year Ben McIntyre had another go at it in the Times.
I have read comments that Ireland should have rowed in as a part of the English-speaking world i.e. code for British Empire. The Brits need to get over the fact that Ireland seceded in 1922 and exercised its prerogative of neutrality in 1939. Dev can be criticised for many things, but, agree or disagree with it, neutrality was his call. It is not customary for countries to ally themselves in war with those with whom they were in military conflict with less than two decades previously. And to have done so could have led to civil war in Ireland, as Dev well knew.
In saying this I appreciate that Britain has only recently begun to forgive the Yankees for breaking away. I suppose we will have to wait a little longer.

It is incredible that there are Irish people who had no idea of what really went on with this and who have swallowed the British version/slant of events.

An Irish person singing the praises of Gray, for instance.

A Little Pony · 09-01-2017 08:28PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Just read the last few pages, I have to say Maryishere has just absolutely destroyed her opposition in this thread. At one point I was saying go easy on them. Jesus..

Then I feel sorry for you and her. You publicly are appaulding utter stupidity . Basic facts are irrelevant to you lot. Bless. Suffice to say,yer opinions are irrelevant and it won't change the past,nor did the past harm Ireland .

Mary,bless her, has proven time and time again that arguming her case without resort to dealing with what is actually said is beyond her.

But,well done you.

What are you on about? She clearly had the better argument backed up by historical facts.

kingchess · 09-01-2017 08:34PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

What are you on about? She clearly had the better argument backed up by historical facts.

DR Seuss would be more historical,maybe not as enteraining:D

maryishere · 09-01-2017 09:53PM

Lt Dan wrote: »

Are you always so insistent on talking rubbish and leaving facts out ? By 1945 , Britain had control of the Atlantic.Their efforts to pressure Ireland had greatly reduced and they still had fords up the North. They no longer needed the ports in the South.

You are wrong again as usual. British and allied losses in the Atlantic in 1944 and 1945 was not as bad as a few years previously, but Germany was still a threat and there were 102 British ships lost in the Atlantic in 1944 and 45 in 1945.
http://www.usmm.org/battleatlantic.html

If Britain / USA / Canada had access to ports south of the border from say 1944 on, and could fly its patrols from the west / s.w. of Ireland, numerous lives would have been saved.

Lt Dan wrote: »

Little or no risk of retailation ? Ye,Belfast had a lovley time,didn't they?

From 1944 on, when it was clear Germany was in retreat and would not waste its scarce resources bombing Ireland. Belfast was bombed earlier in the war. As said before, what the Americans and Allied powers would have expected by the time of Roosevelts death in '45 was for Ireland to open up its ports to help the defenders of the Atlantic convoys. Hitler had invaded neutral countries early in the war : 1945 was time for us to thank the Allied powers for saving us from Nazism, and make some small contribution on an official basis.

Countries chan and did change stance: Italy was an Axis power but on 8 September 1943, Italy joined the Allies as a co-belligerent. Ireland could have abandoned its shameful neutrality in 1944 or 1945 if it wanted to take the high moral ground on the world stage.

indioblack · 09-01-2017 09:56PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

no link, quelle surprise again.

Dev didnt think much of Gray either. The feeling was mutual obviously.
Hitler almost won the war, Britain was a beaten docket after being driven off mainland Europe.
He was not far off in his conviction.

Simply wrong.
In 1940 the British Expeditionary Force was comprehensively outmaneuvered and obliged to vacate the continent.
In that year Germany manufactured 10,000 aircraft of all types.
Britain manufactured 15,000.
Look up British aircraft manufacture for the whole war.
Consider the industrial effort required to build fleets of four- engined heavy bombers.
In 1940 Hitler was surprised when the British were able to launch a naval strike in North Africa - he probably hadn't considered the long reach of naval power - and this at a time when Britain was supposed to have been emasculated by their defeat in France and Belgium.
Britain's army recovered and expanded - even with manpower shortages it numbered, if memory serves me right, two and three quarter million in 1944. Small by comparison with the US and USSR - but still a sizable force.
Unable to defeat Germany on it's own - but hardly a beaten docket.
Not going under in 1940-41 was probably the most important contribution Britain made to the war.

Professor Moriarty · 09-01-2017 10:01PM

indioblack wrote: »

Simply wrong.
In 1940 the British Expeditionary Force was comprehensively outmaneuvered and obliged to vacate the continent.
In that year Germany manufactured 10,000 aircraft of all types.
Britain manufactured 15,000.
Look up British aircraft manufacture for the whole war.
Consider the industrial effort required to build fleets of four- engined heavy bombers.
In 1940 Hitler was surprised when the British were able to launch a naval strike in North Africa - he probably hadn't considered the long reach of naval power - and this at a time when Britain was supposed to have been emasculated by their defeat in France and Belgium.
Britain's army recovered and expanded - even with manpower shortages it numbered, if memory serves me right, two and three quarter million in 1944. Small by comparison with the US and USSR - but still a sizable force.
Unable to defeat Germany on it's own - but hardly a beaten docket.
Not going under in 1940-41 was probably the most important contribution Britain made to the war.

The USSR caused Hitler's defeat.

Fratton Fred · 09-01-2017 10:02PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

The USSR caused Hitler's defeat.

The UK prevented Russia's defeat.

Recruitment for British army soars in Republic of Ireland

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