Fratton Fred wrote: » go away with your self righteous bollocks. If Churchill had really wanted to seize the ports, he would have. It was a contingency plan, if even that.
Lt Dan wrote: » Germany was not Ireland's enemy. "collusion" was to invade Northern Ireland" something the South waffled on about for a long time. Like it or not,I am not sure that many in Ireland or government would consider him a traitor
Lt Dan wrote: » Fred,you are being incredibly disengenious ,waffling about victims of Nazis. Britain had little or no concern about them . They went to war as they saw Germany wanted another go and because Britain's interests,even existence was at threat !
Lt Dan wrote: » Britain can never lecture anyone considering their own colonial past and treatment of natives. These are unrebuttable facts. Britain sent Polish air pilots who fought in the Battle of Britain, to their inevitable internment and risk of death back in USSR occupies Poland.
Lt Dan wrote: » Moreover, Britain was not particularly receiptive to taking in Jewish refugees !!! Those that arrived experienced anti semitism and anti german abuse. In 1938 Britain stopped letting in Jewish refugees from Germany.
Lt Dan wrote: » Germany had nothing to do with us. The Irish government spent more time worrying about Britain and in particular the US ,invading Ireland. Both of whom flat out refused to promise that they would respect our neutrality.
maryishere wrote: » lol. The Dail would have adjouned to for less and greater reasons...then as now not exactly the most respected or prolific bunch of people in the universe. What the Americans and Allied powers would have expected by the time of Roosevelts death in '45 was for Ireland to open up its ports to help the defenders of the Atlantic convoys. Many hundreds of allied lives would have been saved, with little or no risk of retaliation from the then almost defeated Germany. Hitler had invaded neutral countries early in the war : 1945 was time for us to thank the Allied powers for saving us from Nazism, and make some small contribution on an official basis.
Lt Dan wrote: » Are you always so insistent on talking rubbish and leaving facts out ? By 1945 , Britain had control of the Atlantic.Their efforts to pressure Ireland had greatly reduced and they still had fords up the North. They no longer needed the ports in the South. Little or no risk of retailation ? Ye,Belfast had a lovley time,didn't they? De Valera's diplomacy with both nations saved us from Nazism and the Brits,just like your pals in Sweden and Switzerland...both of whom were closer to the front line
A Little Pony wrote: » Just read the last few pages, I have to say Maryishere has just absolutely destroyed her opposition in this thread. At one point I was saying go easy on them. Jesus..
MRnotlob606 wrote: » Boards comments are very pedantic and often pointless. I don't how people can divert their precious energy into creating monolitic blocks of texts with sub-quotes, video links. and paraphrases etc... But whatever floats your boat
FrancieBrady wrote: » And the point ignored by Mary, Fred and Pony is that within the confines of a constitutional neutrality(that he couldn't change even if he wanted to).
maryishere wrote: » You do not need a time machine to know what Hitler did. Indeed I have visited some of his extermination camps on the continent. Indeed I have chatted about DeValera ( offering condolences on the death of Hitler ) with dozens of Irish people ( who were alive in 1945 ) and all were disappointed with DeValera, some more so than others. Some had friends of relations who were among the hundreds of thousands who helped the allied war effort in some way.
Glenster wrote: » It was civil, it was mature, it was respectful. Its something that is lacking in modern politics.
Fratton Fred wrote: » what constitutional neutrality?
Fratton Fred wrote: » As is genocide
Fratton Fred wrote: » the CCTV and fences to prevent his statue being vandalised would say other wise. not really, Hitler had no designs on western europe, or Britains colonies and realms. There were numerous times when Britain could have opted out, but thanks to Churchill, they didn't. do you feel better now that's off your chest? Britain didn't do much, but it did a hell of a lot more than most other countries. BTW, the first Kinder Transport was in december 1938 and continued until 1940 https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005260 That was after Nicholas Winton's own smaller version https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jul/01/sir-nicholas-winton First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist. Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Trade Unionist. Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Jew. Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
FrancieBrady wrote: » Correct, it is not written into the constitution but it is government policy and has cross party support.
Lt Dan wrote: » You are relying ,as evidence of people's beliefs that he was a traitor ,on a tiny tiny tiny minority of left wing nut jobs who never had a voice and never will have a voice in Irish life that will be considered actually relevant. I'd wager quiet alot of people in Fairview don't even know who he was ! Even nazi lovers had cut one of his arms off earlier because they thought he was giving a communist sign,lol. I see that you have failed to deal with the fact that Russell was not a Nazi. Most Irish people know that and know what he was at. Stupid and dangerous for Ireland ,yes,but not a Nazi. If Britain really thought that Russell was a danager and that Ireland was really awash with Nazis ,they and US would have invaded Michael Collins ancesterial home in Cork was often vandalised . Few call him a traitor.
Lt Dan wrote: » Yes,Adolf had no intention of taking over Britain,he respected them,but Britain was not prepared to habe a strong Germany. With France,Britain had some control -Thus ,Britain's interests were at stake. I note that you have nothing to say aboit the fact that Britain's main priority was not victims of Nazi persecution
Lt Dan wrote: » When you start talking rubbish about Ireland ignoring what went on to people in Europe and you parading Britain as some beacon, it is envitable that home truths have to be put forward .Which, you wisely decided to ignore
Lt Dan wrote: » Yes ,they brought in kids but did not give visas to tje parents to work. Almost rather redundant. How can one care for kids if parents are unable to.
Lt Dan wrote: » As for the last crap. No one came to aid Ireland militarily when they were seeking Independence. Germany had nothing to do with us.
Lt Dan wrote: » Treaty of Versaile almost crippled Germany after WW1.(not sire what else could have been done to be fair and the Crash in the 1920s put the nail in tje coffin) It was envitable some looney would try again. Compare how the Allies dealt with Germany after World War 2 Come off it. Britain did not go to war because of their concern for jews or other groups. People like Churchill jad the foresight to realise that Hitler was crazy amd their regime was in conflict with British society
Fratton Fred wrote: » ok. fine. But there was nothing noble about staying out of the fight.
FrancieBrady wrote: » I value our neutrality and I believe it has been a force for good in the world.
Fratton Fred wrote: » you do say some funny things
FrancieBrady wrote: » As I said, I wouldn't expect you to understand that.
Fratton Fred wrote: » Seriously dude, no one outside of Ireland gives two ****es about Ireland's supposed neutrality:rolleyes:
Glenster wrote: » He was just following the rules. As a head of state you are obliged to offer your condolences on the death of another head of state, its the done thing. Its nothing to do with the individuals involved. Maybe it is an example of someone showing respect for (not admiration of) someone he fundamentally disagreed with. It doesn't matter. It was civil, it was mature, it was respectful. Its something that is lacking in modern politics.
feargale wrote: » One has to put this in context. During the war US ambassador to Ireland David Gray behaved despicably in diplomatic terms and crossed the line in his attempts to bully Dev into abandoning neutrality. Senior lecturer in U.S. Foreign Policy, Timothy J. Lynch, has observed that 'his animus towards his host nation made Gray atypical of American ambassadors in Dublin'. By contrast the German minister Eduard Hempel behaved impeccably as a diplomat. Prior to his appointment, the Irish External Affairs ministry had specified that they did not want a Nazi party member as diplomatic representative; the solution to this requirement appears to have been to appoint a person who was not a member of the party, but made to join the following year i.e. 1938. Dev's gesture was a courtesy to Hempel, a decent man, rather than a tribute to Hitler. It's difficult to understand the Brit's hang-up over Irish neutrality, especially given that it was emphatically allies-leaning in contrast to the Nazi-friendly neutrality of Switzerland, Sweden and Portugal. As recently as last year Ben McIntyre had another go at it in the Times. I have read comments that Ireland should have rowed in as a part of the English-speaking world i.e. code for British Empire. The Brits need to get over the fact that Ireland seceded in 1922 and exercised its prerogative of neutrality in 1939. Dev can be criticised for many things, but, agree or disagree with it, neutrality was his call. It is not customary for countries to ally themselves in war with those with whom they were in military conflict with less than two decades previously. And to have done so could have led to civil war in Ireland, as Dev well knew. In saying this I appreciate that Britain has only recently begun to forgive the Yankees for breaking away. I suppose we will have to wait a little longer.
Lt Dan wrote: » A Little Pony wrote: » Just read the last few pages, I have to say Maryishere has just absolutely destroyed her opposition in this thread. At one point I was saying go easy on them. Jesus.. Then I feel sorry for you and her. You publicly are appaulding utter stupidity . Basic facts are irrelevant to you lot. Bless. Suffice to say,yer opinions are irrelevant and it won't change the past,nor did the past harm Ireland . Mary,bless her, has proven time and time again that arguming her case without resort to dealing with what is actually said is beyond her. But,well done you.
A Little Pony wrote: » What are you on about? She clearly had the better argument backed up by historical facts.
Lt Dan wrote: » Are you always so insistent on talking rubbish and leaving facts out ? By 1945 , Britain had control of the Atlantic.Their efforts to pressure Ireland had greatly reduced and they still had fords up the North. They no longer needed the ports in the South.
Lt Dan wrote: » Little or no risk of retailation ? Ye,Belfast had a lovley time,didn't they?
FrancieBrady wrote: » no link, quelle surprise again. Dev didnt think much of Gray either. The feeling was mutual obviously. Hitler almost won the war, Britain was a beaten docket after being driven off mainland Europe. He was not far off in his conviction.
indioblack wrote: » Simply wrong. In 1940 the British Expeditionary Force was comprehensively outmaneuvered and obliged to vacate the continent. In that year Germany manufactured 10,000 aircraft of all types. Britain manufactured 15,000. Look up British aircraft manufacture for the whole war. Consider the industrial effort required to build fleets of four- engined heavy bombers. In 1940 Hitler was surprised when the British were able to launch a naval strike in North Africa - he probably hadn't considered the long reach of naval power - and this at a time when Britain was supposed to have been emasculated by their defeat in France and Belgium. Britain's army recovered and expanded - even with manpower shortages it numbered, if memory serves me right, two and three quarter million in 1944. Small by comparison with the US and USSR - but still a sizable force. Unable to defeat Germany on it's own - but hardly a beaten docket. Not going under in 1940-41 was probably the most important contribution Britain made to the war.
Professor Moriarty wrote: » The USSR caused Hitler's defeat.
