The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 01:51PM

So Hinault, you got a broad definition of evolution, time for the debunking. You actually believe that evolution is false?

hinault · 09-01-2017 03:18PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

What is this based on? The last time Man tried to get some knowledge god kicked him out of Eden.

God does not want us to know anything, except him. Don't question, just have faith. Don't look for answers, pray.

That is what all the evidence of the bible tells us about God. Suddenly, now god has decided that knowledge is important so is giving it to us in small, mainly contradictory means.

It's based on several things.

It is based on the assertion that God is the catalyst for all of Creation, first and foremost. God initiated Creation.

It is also based on the fact that the Universe is ordered to a very precise extent.
The precision of this order refutes entirely the hypothesis that everything has been created on an accidental ad-hoc basis of luck or chance.
Ironically it is science which reveals more and more about the precision of how this Universe operates. This suggests that God wills it that man should know how His creation operates.

Also God has given only mankind the ability to reason. This gift of reason allows us to evaluate and consider the Universe which God has created.

Harika · 09-01-2017 03:50PM

hinault wrote: »

The precision of this order refutes entirely the hypothesis that everything has been created on an accidental ad-hoc basis of luck or chance.
Ironically it is science which reveals more and more about the precision of how this Universe operates. This suggests that God wills it that man should know how His creation operates.

This argument always amuses me, let's make a comparison how both groups approach Euromillion where you have a 1 in 139,838,160 chance to win the jackpot. Friday night, the numbers get drawn, the creationist looks at the numbers and concludes that it was very unlikely from the start that those numbers have been pulled, and he is right: 1 in 139,838,160! The evolutionist looks at the results and verifies that this are the numbers and the draw is a random process that led to this. so it depends how you look at this scenario and the outcome. Do you look at if before you start and except a specific outcome or do you look at it after the event and verify it?
So basically we are here because we won the jackpot several times, but that makes no difference, as if the universe would not be viable, we wouldn't be here and wouldn't discuss this. Maybe there were several big bangs before and this time, it worked out.
And it is not limited to this, to come back to Euromillion, you can also be a winner with several incorrect numbers, what adds to the scenario. Our universe could have been even better, maybe we just got four correct, and four wrong? No one knows, but in general our universe, sun and earth are just a mediocre job if you look at it precisely. Sun will make earth inhabitable in 900 Million years, outside of earth humans cannot survive in a radius of at least several light years.
Last question: My entry last week, did win, should I call the company and claim it was manipulated by a higher force as it is clearly so unlikely that it can win, or should I be happy that I won?

hinault · 09-01-2017 03:57PM

Harika wrote: »

Maybe there were several big bangs before and this time, it worked out.

Try explaining the Big Bang that created this Universe instead.

Harika · 09-01-2017 04:02PM

hinault wrote: »

Try explaining the Big Bang that created this Universe instead.

There was a singularity, that suddenly expanded, space and time was created, for some reason anti matter and matter didn't exterminate each other completely and the first stars started to form. :cool:

hinault · 09-01-2017 04:05PM

Harika wrote: »

There was a singularity, that suddenly expanded, space and time was created, for some reason anti matter and matter didn't exterminate each other completely and the first stars started to form. :cool:

:rolleyes:

What caused the "singularity"?

Harika · 09-01-2017 04:09PM

hinault wrote: »

:rolleyes:

What caused the "singularity"?

No idea, what do you think?

hinault · 09-01-2017 04:16PM

Harika wrote: »

No idea, what do you think?

I've already said that God is the catalyst for all creation.

You've no idea what caused the "singularity" that you refer to.

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 04:17PM

hinault wrote: »

It's ba
The precision of this order refutes entirely the hypothesis that everything has been created on an accidental ad-hoc basis of luck or chance.

Really? Have any mathematics to back that up with?

Harika · 09-01-2017 04:26PM

hinault wrote: »

I've already said that God is the catalyst for all creation.

You've no idea what caused the "singularity" that you refer to.

So what was the cause for "god"?

hinault · 09-01-2017 04:39PM

pajo1981 wrote: »

Really? Have any mathematics to back that up with?

What mathematics would you prefer?

The mathematics which says that if you could extend a measure tape across the diameter of the entire Universe. One mark on that measurement denotes the precise gravitational force to create this entire universe.

If that mark is moved more than one inch in either direction along that scale measurement of our Universe, the gravitational force would be altered thus preventing this Universe to exist.

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 04:41PM

hinault wrote: »

It's based on several things.

It is based on the assertion that God is the catalyst for all of Creation, first and foremost. God initiated Creation.

So your assertion is based on an assertion? God must have created it because god created it. Really?

hinault wrote: »

It is also based on the fact that the Universe is ordered to a very precise extent.

What have you compared the precise nature of the universe against? Do you have other universes that are less precise in order to judge to level?

hinault wrote: »

The precision of this order refutes entirely the hypothesis that everything has been created on an accidental ad-hoc basis of luck or chance.

If you throw deck of cards into the air the 52 cards will land in a precise format. What does that tell us? Nothing, unless we know the likelyhood of that happening or what other combinations could have resulted.

hinault wrote: »

Ironically it is science which reveals more and more about the precision of how this Universe operates. This suggests that God wills it that man should know how His creation operates.

Depends on how you look at it. Precise in what terms. We know that the nature of universe resulted in the universe but even looking at ourselves, it seems strange that on a planet designed with us in mind we are unable to use so much of it and so much with it is so dangerous to us. Why for example, make us susceptable to sunn burn and skin cancer? Why make us unable to breath under water yet be surrounded by it?

hinault wrote: »

Also God has given only mankind the ability to reason. This gift of reason allows us to evaluate and consider the Universe which God has created.

So God gave us reason, so that we can consider the universe, but he never want us to actually find out the truth? How is that logical. Like a maze for a mouse but if the mouse ever finds the exit they will simply be moved to a tougher maze.

hinault · 09-01-2017 04:41PM

Harika wrote: »

So what was the cause for God?

There is no cause. God exists throughout eternity.

hinault · 09-01-2017 04:43PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Do you have other universes that are less precise in order to judge to level?

:rolleyes:

What other universes?

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 04:44PM

hinault wrote: »

What mathematics would you prefer?

The mathematics which says that if you could extend a measure tape across the diameter of the entire Universe. One mark on that measurement denotes the precise gravitational force to create this entire universe.

If that mark is moved more than one inch in either direction along that scale measurement of our Universe, the gravitational force would be altered thus preventing this Universe to exist.

That does not demonstrate demonstrate an impossible universe.

hinault · 09-01-2017 04:45PM

pajo1981 wrote: »

That does not demonstrate demonstrate an impossible universe.

It demonstrates a precise Universe.

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 04:48PM

hinault wrote: »

It demonstrates a precise Universe.

That doesn't mean anything.

hinault · 09-01-2017 04:50PM

pajo1981 wrote: »

That doesn't mean anything.

The precision of the Universe doesn't mean anything?:D

Jog on.

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 04:50PM

hinault wrote: »

It demonstrates a precise Universe.

But does the changing of any of the constants result in no universe at all?

Harika · 09-01-2017 04:51PM

hinault wrote: »

There is no cause. God exists throughout eternity.

I want to change my answer for the singularity to. "There is no cause. The singularity exists throughout eternity." Problem solved. :pac:

hinault · 09-01-2017 05:08PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

But does the changing of any of the constants result in no universe at all?

The changing of the gravitational constant even in minute terms on the scale of this universe most definitely would obliterate this Universe.

Are you arguing that the changing of some other constant would compensate from alteration to the gravitational constant, thus preserving this Universe?
If so, explain how this would work.

robinph · 09-01-2017 05:15PM

hinault wrote: »

The changing of the gravitational constant even in minute terms on the scale of this universe most definitely would obliterate this Universe.

So what? That doesn't prove anything other than with things as the way they are the universe that we currently live in is the one that happened. Does nothing to prove that an outside influence created the universe.

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 05:17PM

No not arguing that at all. What I am saying is that any change in the gravitational constant, or the others, would result in the universe not being created, at least as we understand this one.

But it does not preclude that either a modified version of this universe, or even a completely different universe would be created.

How have you managed to discount that possibility? Going back to my playing cards example, you seem to be suggesting that if the cards somehow land favourable to you, like the lottery example, it proves devine intervention and that that was the only possible outcome.

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 05:17PM

hinault wrote: »

The precision of the Universe doesn't mean anything?:D

Jog on.

That's were your argument collapses. It doesn't mean anything, it just is.

hinault · 09-01-2017 05:25PM

robinph wrote: »

So what? That doesn't prove anything other than with things as the way they are the universe that we currently live in is the one that happened. Does nothing to prove that an outside influence created the universe.

It proves the precision of the Universe.

It refutes the contention that the Universe is random or that it came about by chance.

hinault · 09-01-2017 05:27PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

No not arguing that at all. What I am saying is that any change in the gravitational constant, or the others, would result in the universe not being created, at least as we understand this one.

But it does not preclude that either a modified version of this universe, or even a completely different universe would be created.

You accept that the Universe as it exists would cease in such circumstance. Good. But you claim that instead some other modified universe might exist instead.

What modified Universe would exist instead?

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 05:28PM

hinault wrote: »

It refutes the contention that the Universe is random or that it came about by chance.

It doesn't though.

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 05:32PM

hinault wrote: »

You accept that the Universe as it exists would cease in such circumstance. Good. But you claim that instead some other modified universe might exist instead.

What modified Universe would exist instead?

An unstable one which we don't know about... because we weren't there.

robinph · 09-01-2017 05:37PM

hinault wrote: »

It proves the precision of the Universe.

It refutes the contention that the Universe is random or that it came about by chance.

No it doesn't. It just proves that the universe exists with certain conditions.

It says nothing about if those conditions are random or not, or if they were set by an outside influence or not.

hinault · 09-01-2017 05:40PM

robinph wrote: »

No it doesn't. It just proves that the universe exists with certain conditions.

Gravitational force conditions are precise.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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