The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

Leroy42 · 08-01-2017 08:32PM

J C wrote: »

It is a fact that the theory of the spontaneous evolution of pondkind into mankind has become defunct.

And the proof of this?

J C wrote: »

We now know enough to definitively conclude that an intelligence/intelligences of inordinate capacity created life

Do we. Again, we have proof of how life first started? Really. Great. Proof?

Quote:- "Although atheism might have been logically tenable before Darwin, Darwin made it possible to be an intellectually fulfilled atheist" (Dawkins 1986, 6).[/QUOTE]

Maybe you should spend more times contemplating what Dawkins says. He makes a lot of sense (sometimes!)
You haven't posted any truths. You have given your opinion, and tried to state them as facts without any evidence so they just fall back to being opinion.

But even if all you claim is true it does not bring things any closer to God did it. It just leaves it back to 'we don't know'. Thats it. Why do you think that a eternal, all seeing omniscient God is possible but super fairies aren't. Or life could go from nothing to today? Is that really a bigger stretch that what you propose.

HandsomeDan · 08-01-2017 08:48PM

J C wrote: »

I think you may have strayed onto the wrong thread.:)

We have a cult in our schools, filling our children's mind with rubbish. Look at you for instance, an otherwise reasonable person with head full of rubbish.

Timberrrrrrrr · 08-01-2017 09:14PM

J C wrote: »

Pointing out truths that people don't like since 2005.:)

12 years later and still waiting for one

hinault · 08-01-2017 10:28PM

J C wrote: »

Unfortunately, Nobel Prizes are not handed out for dis-proving things.
If you want a Nobel prize ... you need to devise a plausible theory (not involving God) as to how all living organisms came to be.:)

So far, this hasn't been done ... but you are correct, that a Nobel prize and the eternal gratitude of every Atheist on the planet, awaits anybody who does.

We know that it was an inelligence/intelligences of inordinate capacity that created life ... it is a matter of faith who that intelligence(s) was/were.
I believe it was the God of the Bible ... you are entitled to your own beliefs on the matter.

BTW, do you believe that it was Leprecauns, or Aliens, or Great Spagetti Monster that did it ... or do you still cling to the belief that it 'did itself' in contravention of everything that has ever been observed? (that every phenomenon has an equal or greater cause and Complex Functional Specified Information is always observed to have an intelligent source)

The observable fact is that an inelligence/intelligences of inordinate capacity is required to create life.
Whether that intelligence was the God of the Bible is a matter of faith - but I haven't heard of any other plausible claims or candidates for the job of Creator.

Equally, the presence of evil, sin and death in the World is an observable fact ... whether the ultimate cause of these phenomena is because the first man and woman succumbed to the temptations of a snake possessed of Satan telling them that they would be as God, if they acquired Satan's infinite knowledge of evil ... is also a matter of faith.

Indeed.

Nothing has been created from nothing.

The argument that the entire Universe came in to being by it's own volition is not tenable.

Leroy42 · 08-01-2017 10:30PM

So where did God come from?

Timberrrrrrrr · 08-01-2017 11:06PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So where did God come from?

Prepare for the whole ""god" did it excuse

J C · 09-01-2017 12:15AM

HandsomeDan wrote: »

We have a cult in our schools, filling our children's mind with rubbish. Look at you for instance, an otherwise reasonable person with head full of rubbish.

Strong on accusation ... but very weak on any evidence for your assertions.:)

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 12:20AM

JC, you can hardly talk about lack of evidence.

Handsomeedan doesn't need evidence, I'm sure they have sufficient belief in it to make it true

J C · 09-01-2017 12:22AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So where did God come from?

God is a transcendent eternal omnipotent being.
Of course, you don't have to believe this ... but such an entity is capable of 'fitting the bill' with the competence to Create all we observe ex nihilo ...
while the materialistic alternative that everything created itself out of nothing is totally untenable.:cool:

J C · 09-01-2017 12:28AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

JC, you can hardly talk about lack of evidence.

Handsomeedan doesn't need evidence, I'm sure they have sufficient belief in it to make it true

Handsomedan was talking about eradicating religion from all schools ... he doesn't need any faith to propose this ... just no tolerance for any other world-views, besides his own!!!:)

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 12:33AM

So God gets a by on the very laws you want to invoke as being the reason the alternative is impossible?

And how do we know God is a transcendent eternal omnipotent being?

Flying Spaghetti monster with those attributes also fit the bill. What about Thor, or Zuse, or ......

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 12:36AM

Just from schools, people are free to attend mass, bible camps or whatever.

J C · 09-01-2017 01:08AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So God gets a by on the very laws you want to invoke as being the reason the alternative is impossible?

And how do we know God is a transcendent eternal omnipotent being?

Flying Spaghetti monster with those attributes also fit the bill. What about Thor, or Zuse, or ......

The Divine Creator of the Universe must logically be a transcendent eternal omnipotent being.

I agree with you that such a being could be called the God of the Bible ... or possibly the Flying Spaghetti monster ... if that is how you swing !!!:D

What you call God doesn't change His essential essence.

J C · 09-01-2017 01:09AM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Just from schools, people are free to attend mass, bible camps or whatever.

Why the restriction on schools?

J C · 09-01-2017 01:13AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

12 years later and still waiting for one

Ha Ha ... as the Good Book says ... there are none so blind as s/he who will not see !!:cool:

Timberrrrrrrr · 09-01-2017 07:37AM

J C wrote: »

Ha Ha ... as the Good Book says ... there are none so blind as s/he who will not see !!:cool:

A bit like how people like yourself refuse to see/understand solid scientific evidence for evolution and instead come up with some far fetched "god did it" fairy tale in a lame attempt to explain things away.

Advbrd · 09-01-2017 07:48AM

J C wrote: »

The Divine Creator of the Universe must logically be a transcendent eternal omnipotent being.

I agree with you that such a being could be called the God of the Bible ... or possibly the Flying Spaghetti monster ... if that is how you swing !!!:D

What you call God doesn't change His essential essence.

There is no logic involved in this belief, it is simply a belief. So God created everything because nothing can be created from nothing? That implies that God was created from nothing (logically, he cannot always have existed, that makes absolutely no sense) which contradicts the concept that nothing can be created from nothing. So, we are back to blind faith, not logic.

J C · 09-01-2017 08:46AM

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

A bit like how people like yourself refuse to see/understand solid scientific evidence for evolution and instead come up with some far fetched "god did it" fairy tale in a lame attempt to explain things away.

There is plenty of evidence for 'Evolution' in the sense of the Natural/sexual/artificial selection of pre-existing genetic diversity ... but this selection either shuffles or eliminates some of this diversity - and it certainly doesn't explain the origins of this diversity.
The mutation explantion for the diversity of genetic information is observationally challenged ... as mutagenesis is observed to invariably destroy/degrade genetic information ... which is going in the wrong direction to the requirement for a spontaneous generator of improved information ... required to support the hypothesis that pondkind evolved into mankind.

J C · 09-01-2017 08:52AM

Advbrd wrote: »

There is no logic involved in this belief, it is simply a belief. So God created everything because nothing can be created from nothing? That implies that God was created from nothing (logically, he cannot always have existed, that makes absolutely no sense) which contradicts the concept that nothing can be created from nothing. So, we are back to blind faith, not logic.

If nothing can be created from nothing ... then 'something' must logically have existed outside and before time, matter and space came into existence. That 'something' must be of a scale and power that is at least equivalent to what it created. What has been created is observed to be effectively infinite in scale and power (in the case of the Universe) and effectively infinite in the CFSI information content (in the case of life). Only a transcendent omnipotent being with an omniscient mind 'fits the bill'.
I choose to call this entity, God ... you may call it what you will.

Delirium · 09-01-2017 10:01AM

J C wrote: »

If nothing can be created from nothing ... then 'something' must logically have existed outside and before time, matter and space came into existence. That 'something' must be of a scale and power that is at least equivalent to what it created. What has been created is observed to be effectively infinite in scale and power (in the case of the Universe) and effectively infinite in the CFSI information content (in the case of life). Only a transcendent omnipotent being with an omniscient mind 'fits the bill'.
I choose to call this entity, God ... you may call it what you will.

how did you come to this conclusion?

Harika · 09-01-2017 10:18AM

J C wrote: »

If nothing can be created from nothing ... then 'something' must logically have existed outside and before time, matter and space came into existence. That 'something' must be of a scale and power that is at least equivalent to what it created. What has been created is observed to be effectively infinite in scale and power (in the case of the Universe) and effectively infinite in the CFSI information content (in the case of life). Only a transcendent omnipotent being with an omniscient mind 'fits the bill'.
I choose to call this entity, God ... you may call it what you will.

Which gods fall into this category?

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 11:07AM

J C wrote: »

If nothing can be created from nothing ... then 'something' must logically have existed outside and before time, matter and space came into existence. That 'something' must be of a scale and power that is at least equivalent to what it created. What has been created is observed to be effectively infinite in scale and power (in the case of the Universe) and effectively infinite in the CFSI information content (in the case of life). Only a transcendent omnipotent being with an omniscient mind 'fits the bill'.
I choose to call this entity, God ... you may call it what you will.

If nothing can be created from nothing....but you don't know that. You then go on to use this piece of fact to prove that God must have done it.

Whilst it is true that it seems utterly illogical to us at the present time, surely we have all learned over the last few hundred years that science will continue to answer questions in ways we would never have thought of.

You then create the rules for what this God must be, again based on a unproven initial position and then applying your own rules to that position and using these made up rules to prove your position to be correct. On what basis does God, if he does exist, need to be eternal etc.

I am still awaiting the proof to back up the claim that evolution has been debunked.

You also claimed it is known the intelligence needs to be involved in the start of life. Again, any evidence of this?

pajo1981 · 09-01-2017 12:07PM

J C wrote: »

Why the restriction on schools?

Strangely enough, guys like you having access to our kids education upsets some people.

hinault · 09-01-2017 12:54PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

I am still awaiting the proof to back up the claim that evolution has been debunked.

What is Evolution?

Define what Evolution is.
And when you do so I'll debunk.

Harika · 09-01-2017 01:12PM

hinault wrote: »

What is Evolution?

Define what Evolution is.
And when you do so I'll debunk.

Definition of Evolution:

"In the broadest sense, evolution is merely change, and so is all-pervasive; galaxies, languages, and political systems all evolve. Biological evolution ... is change in the properties of populations of organisms that transcend the lifetime of a single individual. The ontogeny of an individual is not considered evolution; individual organisms do not evolve. The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next. Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."

Panrich · 09-01-2017 01:20PM

There are huge chasms to bridge between an external source creating the universe and the life contained within it, and the existence of a Christian God.

Science cannot answer all the questions surrounding how the universe came to be and how life initially manifested itself on earth but we do have quite a good understanding of what has happened since. Creationists make a jump across the bones of many generations of our ancestors that predate the bible to come to conclusions that are unfounded in any scientific way and are based on stories of a God that is no more provable than any of the other ancient gods.

Evolution means that as humans we're nothing special and that does not fit the narrative so must be denied. The logical contortions that we see on this thread are testament to that.

hinault · 09-01-2017 01:31PM

Harika wrote: »

The changes in populations that are considered evolutionary are those that are inheritable via the genetic material from one generation to the next.

What "evolutionary" changes in population are you referring to, specifically?

Which genetic material changes are you referring to, specifically?

Harika wrote: »

Biological evolution may be slight or substantial; it embraces everything from slight changes in the proportion of different alleles within a population (such as those determining blood types) to the successive alterations that led from the earliest protoorganism to snails, bees, giraffes, and dandelions."

What is this intended to mean? Explain.

Or better still link where you lifted this definition from, so that I can read for myself where you're sourcing this stuff from.:rolleyes:

Harika · 09-01-2017 01:35PM

hinault wrote: »

Or better still link where you lifted this definition from, so that I can read for myself where you're sourcing this stuff from.:rolleyes:

It is the definition from Douglas J. Futuyma in Evolutionary Biology, Sinauer Associates 1986

hinault · 09-01-2017 01:36PM

Panrich wrote: »

Science cannot answer all the questions surrounding how the universe came to be

That's for sure.

Panrich wrote: »

but we do have quite a good understanding of what has happened since.

That's very debatable.

I'm all for science and discovery. Human enquiry is a good thing and it is something which should be encouraged.

It seems to me that God wishes that man might get a better understanding of His creation.

Leroy42 · 09-01-2017 01:49PM

hinault wrote: »

It seems to me that God wishes that man might get a better understanding of His creation.

What is this based on? The last time Man tried to get some knowledge god kicked him out of Eden.

God does not want us to know anything, except him. Don't question, just have faith. Don't look for answers, pray.

That is what all the evidence of the bible tells us about God. Suddenly, now god has decided that knowledge is important so is giving it to us in small, mainly contradictory means.

The Bible, Creationism, and Prophecy (part 2)

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