Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

marno21 · 08-01-2017 1:48am #1

This was raised recently by Simon Coveney and also by Cork Chamber CEO Conor Healy:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/business/dublin-and-cork-could-grind-to-halt-unless-spending-for-public-transport-is-increased-438145.html

Going forward, Cork has to have some sort of light rail solution if is to continue growing. The main issue at present is the massive dispersal of the population and thus the need for so many car commuters. Especially considering the continued construction of houses in Carrigaline, Midleton, Carrigtwohill, Ballincollig, Blarney designed wholly for car commuters. Constructing a light rail system may open up more areas of the city and will hopefully reverse the trend of everyone living in the satellite towns and commuting in by car.

What's yer opinion on it? Is it viable?

tomwaterford · 08-01-2017 1:51am

Is there not a train from Middleton to cork already?

marno21 · 08-01-2017 2:11am

tomwaterford wrote: »

Is there not a train from Middleton to cork already?

Forgot to finish that paragraph, which completely ****ed up what I was trying to say.

There is already a commuter rail service to Mallow, Midleton and Cobh. There are calls to extend this service to Youghal, however, both it and the N25 dualling scheme are likely years away at this stage.

The N8, N22, N27, N28 and N71 corridors have NO rail access whatsoever at present (commuting wise, I'm not counting the N22 west of Killarney or the N8 north of Thurles).

man98 · 08-01-2017 2:19am

I've always favoured light rail to be rolled out from Kent Station to the University via Patrick Street, which could easily be extended onward to Bishopstown and out toward Tivoli if the demand was there. I would also see a benefit from a line out to Douglas because it has quite a poor connection into Cork at peak times with traffic backed up.
This, however, is all a pipe dream of mine is not backed by statistics, just allegorical evidence. I would, however, imagine connecting the transport arteries into Cork (Kent, Parnell Place) to the suburbs as a main priority. Between transport links and the availability for shopping on Patrick Street (or even out to Wilton) I would imagine there would be adequate patronage.

tomwaterford · 08-01-2017 2:21am

marno21 wrote: »

Forgot to finish that paragraph, which completely ****ed up what I was trying to say.

There is already a commuter rail service to Mallow, Midleton and Cobh. There are calls to extend this service to Youghal, however, both it and the N25 dualling scheme are likely years away at this stage.

The N8, N22, N27, N28 and N71 corridors have NO rail access whatsoever at present (commuting wise, I'm not counting the N22 west of Killarney or the N8 north of Thurles).

Surly your answer is a very cheap park and ride system from the edge of the city??

Operating every 10 mins

KCAccidental · 10-01-2017 12:19am

I think high level BRT would be a much more attainable goal for Cork. It is cheaper and if done right has much of the same benefits of LRT without the higher construction costs.

There are future plans for a rapid transit corridor taking in Ballincollig-CIT-UCC-City Centre-Docklands-Blackrock-Mahon Point. With future development in Curraheen and South Ballincollig, provision should be made for dedicated segregated BRT roads (which can be upgraded to LRT in future) in these places as well as a fixed funding contribution from all developers in these areas.

McAlban · 10-01-2017 1:13pm

man98 wrote: »

I've always favoured light rail to be rolled out from Kent Station to the University via Patrick Street, which could easily be extended onward to Bishopstown and out toward Tivoli if the demand was there. I would also see a benefit from a line out to Douglas because it has quite a poor connection into Cork at peak times with traffic backed up.

Like the one that existed 100 years ago?

The Cork Electric Tramway Ran from St. Lukes, Via Lower Glanmire Road, to Patrick Street, Washington Street, Lancaster Quay to Western Road's junction with O'Donovans Road. Where you could link up with the Cork and Muskerry Light Railway.

The Cork and Macroom Direct Railway ran along the alignment of the N40 as far as Bishopstown.

The CET also had a line from the City Centre to Carrigaline Road in Douglas,

When you look at the history of Light Rail and Tramways in Cork, they really were 60 Years ahead of their time, and were pulled up all too quickly.

newacc2015 · 10-01-2017 2:08pm

marno21 wrote: »

The main issue at present is the massive dispersal of the population and thus the need for so many car commuters. Especially considering the continued construction of houses in Carrigaline, Midleton, Carrigtwohill, Ballincollig, Blarney designed wholly for car commuters. Constructing a light rail system may open up more areas of the city and will hopefully reverse the trend of everyone living in the satellite towns and commuting in by car.

What's yer opinion on it? Is it viable?

I can't understand why this is still allowed to be done. Why are we allowing the construction of housing in areas where there is no viable public transport system? The taxpayer time after time is being asked to foot the bill for people who chose the suburban lifestyle for bigger and cheaper housing but still expect the amazing public transport system of a dense European city.

A tram is not suitable for low density urban sprawl. It only really works when a city is medium density. If people want to expanded to low density suburbia like in this case, slap on a massive levy onto the houses for the cost of construction. The houses are going to benefit from an increase in value and it is not as if we live in the US, where there is a meaningful property tax that will recoup some of the increase in value of the properties.

Cities should be promoting higher density urban living, not expecting taxpayer to subsidies the non-viable urban sprawl that is currently encouraged.

man98 · 10-01-2017 2:43pm

McAlban wrote: »

Like the one that existed 100 years ago?

The Cork Electric Tramway Ran from St. Lukes, Via Lower Glanmire Road, to Patrick Street, Washington Street, Lancaster Quay to Western Road's junction with O'Donovans Road. Where you could link up with the Cork and Muskerry Light Railway.

The Cork and Macroom Direct Railway ran along the alignment of the N40 as far as Bishopstown.

The CET also had a line from the City Centre to Carrigaline Road in Douglas,

When you look at the history of Light Rail and Tramways in Cork, they really were 60 Years ahead of their time, and were pulled up all too quickly.

Something to that effect anyway, I hadn't realised the tramway went out so far before it was taken up but it would be feasible I'd imagine.

Edit re: urban density, the problem is very much from the ground up tbh. Cork's soil is awful for construction which led to the centuries before ours building low buildings in the city centre (see Barrack Street; Albert Road etc.) however now many of these buildings are protected due to heritage (and rightly so) and thus Cork has no option to remain low rise. Cork's only meaningful residential high rise (the Elysian, South Link Road) was a failure and is only fully occupied now (if even) so no one is going to take a risk on developing more high rise if it means similar results. People still need a place to live which is why more sprawl in the likes of Ballincollig suddenly seems like a smart idea, despite the weak transport links to Cork city.

AngryLips · 10-01-2017 3:11pm

Of course, the old trams that existed originally would be completely unsuitable for today's needs and that's why you see cities like Lisbon tearing up some of their older tramlines.

BonnieSituation · 11-01-2017 11:21pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Of course, the old trams that existed originally would be completely unsuitable for today's needs and that's why you see cities like Lisbon tearing up some of their older tramlines.

"some"

You'll notice that they don't tear them up. Do nothing for decades and then go "I have a bright idea, let's build a tram."

God we're a bunch of sh!tehawks in this country.

Frostybrew · 23-01-2018 2:36am

Apparently Shane Ross has something in the works regarding light rail or BRT in Cork. Responding to Dail questions.

Minister Ross said: "What I’d like to say is that I think it’s desirable. I think what you’re looking for here is public transport solutions in Cork City which will include light-rail and bus rapid transit. And let me say, absolutely, without equivocation, they are not ruled out.

Responding to these comments Deputy Ó Laogaire, a Sinn Féin TD, said he regarded them as positive and encouraging.

He said: "I am glad that the Minister has stated that he believes a system like this is desirable, this is significant progress on his previous comments on this last July, and I am glad that he appears to have listened to Cork voices.

"It is also very positive that he informed me that a Transport Strategy is being developed for the Cork Metropolitan Area, which will go to public consultation in February, which will include 'a range of public transport interventions across all modes of transport', and I hope this will include further detail.

http://www.corkindependent.com/news/topics/articles/2018/01/17/4150902-cork-light-rail-comments-positive/

namloc1980 · 23-01-2018 11:57am

Talk is cheap as they say. Let's see real plans and funding and then we can believe that something will happen. For what it's worth I'd say they're looking at BRT but it won't be a proper job - would bet it'll be just glorified bus lanes without proper traffic priority. Would be delighted to be wrong and for plans to emerge for light rail!

flexcon · 26-01-2018 11:40am

man98 wrote: »

Something to that effect anyway, I hadn't realised the tramway went out so far before it was taken up but it would be feasible I'd imagine.

Edit re: urban density, the problem is very much from the ground up tbh. Cork's soil is awful for construction which led to the centuries before ours building low buildings in the city centre (see Barrack Street; Albert Road etc.) however now many of these buildings are protected due to heritage (and rightly so) and thus Cork has no option to remain low rise. Cork's only meaningful residential high rise (the Elysian, South Link Road) was a failure and is only fully occupied now (if even) so no one is going to take a risk on developing more high rise if it means similar results. People still need a place to live which is why more sprawl in the likes of Ballincollig suddenly seems like a smart idea, despite the weak transport links to Cork city.

The Elysian came onto the market just as the market collapsed though. Cork has a serious housing shortage in itself, It's just as bad as Dublin. (I've been through the systems)

Elysian rent has gone up to 2000 for a 2 bedroom, up from 1600 in 2014. So I honestly think in this regard now is the time to get another one built up. Huge MNC's located in Cork and they are finding it hard to recruit in some areas as there is simply nowhere for their new employees to go.

Regarding the Light rail, as it's been said here before - We had an incredible network before it was ripped up. Even if the tracks had to be ripped up, selling the land and removing any sort of possibility of opening up the line again was borderline criminal IMHO

Then again these are just my own thoughts

Idbatterim · 26-01-2018 2:47pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Talk is cheap as they say. Let's see real plans and funding and then we can believe that something will happen. For what it's worth I'd say they're looking at BRT but it won't be a proper job - would bet it'll be just glorified bus lanes without proper traffic priority. Would be delighted to be wrong and for plans to emerge for light rail!

well the luas in dublin doesnt have proper traffic priority from my experience. Get proper electric BRT in, in my opinion. Something that actually has a hope rather than light rail, years of planning and will be ditched the first opportunity that comes along, like a recession...

marno21 · 26-01-2018 3:18pm

This new public transport upgrade in Cork is heavily pushed by the Council, who badly need it for the development of the Docklands.

Trying to develop the Docklands without a total overhaul of the public transport network is a waste of time. This is in addition to the backlog need for decent service to areas such as Mahon and Ballincollig/Bishopstown.

But then again we can't even get a railway station built in Blackpool or Blarney.

bk · 26-01-2018 5:43pm

marno21 wrote: »

This new public transport upgrade in Cork is heavily pushed by the Council, who badly need it for the development of the Docklands.

I think they are pushing for BRT though?

Seems like a good place to start.

Idbatterim · 27-01-2018 4:46pm

is the proposed route in cork like Dublin had previously? where the long single deck buses arent suited to the tight turns etc or is there a route where these types of buses, could be well suited?

one thing that makes luas so much more pleasant than bus, is its electric v noisy, vibrating, stinking diesel. Singapore are starting to test autonomous buses this year...

Frostybrew · 27-01-2018 11:01pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

is the proposed route in cork like Dublin had previously? where the long single deck buses arent suited to the tight turns etc or is there a route where these types of buses, could be well suited?

one thing that makes luas so much more pleasant than bus, is its electric v noisy, vibrating, stinking diesel. Singapore are starting to test autonomous buses this year...

Docklands to Mahon Point, and possibly onto Passage West, is a disused rail line with a cycle track. The remainder would be a good deal of on street running with some turns. The most likely streets that it would use (South Mall, Grand Parade, St Patricks street, Washington street) are fairly wide with ample space at junctions. There wouldn't be anything as tight as the junction of Dawson Street with Nassau Street. Having said that, it's barely on the political agenda, never mind route selection stage.

marno21 · 27-01-2018 11:13pm

The disused rail line between the Docklands and Mahon, whilst fairly useful, would face considerable objection should its alignment be considered for a rapid transit service.

Frostybrew · 28-01-2018 12:35am

marno21 wrote: »

The disused rail line between the Docklands and Mahon, whilst fairly useful, would face considerable objection should its alignment be considered for a rapid transit service.

Over the walkway? No reason that both walkway and BRT/LRT can't co exist following redevelopment as the alignment is wide. Anyway it's been reserved for some form of public transit in one form or another since 1978 in plans such as LUTs and city development plans, a rare example of long term transport planning.

Certainly there would be opposition, but the NIMBY case here is not as strong as many would believe.

TheChizler · 28-01-2018 12:59am

What do you think NIMBY means? The cycle/walkway is a fantastic resource away from traffic. It's certainly not unreasonable to object to changing it especially at this stage when the details of are nonexistent and benefits of this route over possible alternatives havent been presented.

Frostybrew · 28-01-2018 1:07am

TheChizler wrote: »

What do you think NIMBY means? The cycle/walkway is a fantastic resource away from traffic. It's certainly not unreasonable to object to changing it especially at this stage when the details of are nonexistent and benefits of this route over possible alternatives havent been presented.

Nothing to stop it from continuing to be a fantastic resource away from traffic. It's even an opportunity to upgrade the facility.

TheChizler · 28-01-2018 1:46am

Frostybrew wrote: »

Nothing to stop it from continuing to be a fantastic resource away from traffic. It's even an opportunity to upgrade the facility.

We'd really have to see a set of plans before being able to comment further. If they could do it without impacting on the greenway it would be great but I don't know how you'd fit a bidirectional rail line and path without damaging its unique features. Alternatives routes may exist also and I'd be interested in seeing them also.

On a different topic, are there reports out there justifying such a scheme? I'm not doubting how great a facility it would be but I'd like to know there's more to it than "wouldn't it be great if we got a Luas?". No point spending hundreds of millions if it's going to be half empty even after the new developments go in. Don't want to end up with something like the Detroit People Mover.

Frostybrew · 28-01-2018 3:06am

Yes there's this report form 2009, though it's a bit out of date as it relies on data from 2006 and it's going to be 2026 before anything like this is in place. Hence it's already 20 years out of date.

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/transportationdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf

It recommends BRT from Ballincollig to Mahon Point via the western suburbs, UCC, the City centre and the docklands. However, I believe it underestimates the impact of the docklands regeneration and LRT should be implemented.

The report also argues against a second rapid transit corridor from Ballyvolane to the Airport. This recommendation is also now inadequate as massive expansion is now planned north of Ballyvolane which will need LRT as a minimum in order to avoid a Mahon Point style traffic congestion mess. I'm not sure such a link to the airport is needed though.

The big curve ball in relation to future transport planning is going to be the impact of autonomous vehicles. The question is will the increased efficiencies make public transport obsolete, or will increased usage make it more necessary than ever?

A new more comprehensive study is necessary.

Hugh Jampton · 28-01-2018 2:56pm

TheChizler wrote: »

We'd really have to see a set of plans before being able to comment further. If they could do it without impacting on the greenway it would be great but I don't know how you'd fit a bidirectional rail line and path without damaging its unique features. Alternatives routes may exist also and I'd be interested in seeing them also.

On a different topic, are there reports out there justifying such a scheme? I'm not doubting how great a facility it would be but I'd like to know there's more to it than "wouldn't it be great if we got a Luas?". No point spending hundreds of millions if it's going to be half empty even after the new developments go in. Don't want to end up with something like the Detroit People Mover.

Because Cork isn't Detroit?

On the other hand, using one aspect of a planned PT system as an excuse for not doing the rest of it seems very Irish indeed.

https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/heres-what-youll-see-on-the-people-mover-over-12-hours/Content?oid=2272864

TheChizler · 28-01-2018 3:20pm

Hugh Jampton wrote: »

Because Cork isn't Detroit?

On the other hand, using one aspect of a planned PT system as an excuse for not doing the rest of it seems very Irish indeed.

https://www.metrotimes.com/detroit/heres-what-youll-see-on-the-people-mover-over-12-hours/Content?oid=2272864

I only refer to it as a system that is totally underused and runs at a massive loss. We want to avoid that.

sea12 · 28-01-2018 4:58pm

newacc2015 wrote: »

I can't understand why this is still allowed to be done. Why are we allowing the construction of housing in areas where there is no viable public transport system? The taxpayer time after time is being asked to foot the bill for people who chose the suburban lifestyle for bigger and cheaper housing but still expect the amazing public transport system of a dense European city.

A tram is not suitable for low density urban sprawl. It only really works when a city is medium density. If people want to expanded to low density suburbia like in this case, slap on a massive levy onto the houses for the cost of construction. The houses are going to benefit from an increase in value and it is not as if we live in the US, where there is a meaningful property tax that will recoup some of the increase in value of the properties.

Cities should be promoting higher density urban living, not expecting taxpayer to subsidies the non-viable urban sprawl that is currently encouraged.

And where do you expect everybody to live or buy these mythical houses in the city. Developers don't build them in the city. A levy on sub urban houses. Would you ever get off your high horse.

Carawaystick · 29-01-2018 12:35am

Frostybrew wrote: »

Nothing to stop it from continuing to be a fantastic resource away from traffic. It's even an opportunity to upgrade the facility.

I'm not sure building a PT link with a catchment only on one side is a clever idea.

Frostybrew · 29-01-2018 12:40am

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm not sure building a PT link with a catchment only on one side is a clever idea.

Can you be more specific?

Markcheese · 29-01-2018 8:18am

Well, the section that would head down the a quays from the city towards Blackrock will have water on one side.... Effectively halving its catchment area... And further on it goes through a park, and Blackrock isn't high density either, it's not till you get towards mahon that you get significant density, and that's one sided as well..

GerardKeating · 29-01-2018 8:27am

Carawaystick wrote: »

I'm not sure building a PT link with a catchment only on one side is a clever idea.

They did that with the DART, and it still packed most days.

salmocab · 29-01-2018 8:38am

GerardKeating wrote: »

They did that with the DART, and it still packed most days.

In fairness that was done because the tracks existed not because it made sense route wise, it also only runs every 15 minutes at peak times although that’s meant to come down to 10 if they can make the union agree.

Frostybrew · 29-01-2018 9:33am

Markcheese wrote: »

Well, the section that would head down the a quays from the city towards Blackrock will have water on one side.... Effectively halving its catchment area... And further on it goes through a park, and Blackrock isn't high density either, it's not till you get towards mahon that you get significant density, and that's one sided as well..

There's a short stretch between PUC and Dundanion that is one sided. The rest is fine.

Have you a better solution?

EnzoScifo · 29-01-2018 11:54pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Well, the section that would head down the a quays from the city towards Blackrock will have water on one side.... Effectively halving its catchment area... And further on it goes through a park, and Blackrock isn't high density either, it's not till you get towards mahon that you get significant density, and that's one sided as well..

not true really. The plans are for the PT route to go down centre park road to service the docklands and then a short run by the marina and down to Blackrock. While Blackrock itself isn't high density, the old abode centre will eventually become apartments and then you have the major trip generators in Mahon business park, Mahon Point & Jacobs Island.

Carawaystick · 30-01-2018 1:14am

GerardKeating wrote: »

They did that with the DART, and it still packed most days.

Because Blackrock in Dublin is more populated than Blackrock in Louth or COrk combined... let alone Dún Laoghaire or Bray.

marno21 · 30-01-2018 4:28am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Because Blackrock in Dublin is more populated than Blackrock in Louth or COrk combined... let alone Dún Laoghaire or Bray.

The objective here is for a new public transport network to service Blackrock in Cork in order to faciliate further expansion. It's no wonder that's the case if Cork Blackrock is reliant on car.

Time for certain people to wake up and smell some 21st century coffee. And I'm not talking about posters on here.

30-01-2018 11:34am

Given that the numbers are just not there plus the fact that there are a number of ways to increase capacity in the buses as an alternative, I fear any development of a light rail system outside of the capital at this stage would be to this transport option what the WRC is to heavy rail i.e. kill any other potential development due to low usage and massive subvention

Yes Cork, then Limerick, then Galway will need light rail but not for a long while yet

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 12:11pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that the numbers are just not there plus the fact that there are a number of ways to increase capacity in the buses as an alternative, I fear any development of a light rail system outside of the capital at this stage would be to this transport option what the WRC is to heavy rail i.e. kill any other potential development due to low usage and massive subvention

Yes Cork, then Limerick, then Galway will need light rail but not for a long while yet

I think the failure to put free flow junctions onto the M50 when it was originally being constructed, due to short sighted planning, is a more appropriate parallel for the public transport situation in Cork. This was an expensive and costly failure in transport planning, and what you are suggesting is of a similar vein for a different mode of transport.

The rapid transit study released in 2009 found a positive cost benefit ratio for both BRT and LRT in Cork. This was based on 2006 data. Both population and employment have expanded since then, as has traffic congestion, which means we are already at least 10 years too late in the implementation of a solution.

Buses are the answer in some areas. However at least one, possibly two rapid transit solutions are necessary to alleviate present day issues and facilitate the the high level of growth that is planned for the area.

bk · 30-01-2018 12:46pm

Well as it stands, the demand certainly isn't currently there for a BRT, never mind a LRT.

Having family there, I spend a lot of time in the area. The 202 is one of the best bus services in Cork. 10 minute frequency and often has modern double deckers on it. Great route which serves Mahon Shopping Center, City Center and up to Apple.

Decent numbers use it, but pretty light compared to any Dublin Bus core route. So on it's own it wouldn't justify BRT.

However hopefully with big redevelopment of the docks and thousands of new apartments, the numbers would be there to support BRT.

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 1:12pm

bk wrote: »

Well as it stands, the demand certainly isn't currently there for a BRT, never mind a LRT.

Having family there, I spend a lot of time in the area. The 202 is one of the best bus services in Cork. 10 minute frequency and often has modern double deckers on it. Great route which serves Mahon Shopping Center, City Center and up to Apple.

Decent numbers use it, but pretty light compared to any Dublin Bus core route. So on it's own it wouldn't justify BRT.

However hopefully with big redevelopment of the docks and thousands of new apartments, the numbers would be there to support BRT.

The rail transit study found that this is not the case. With the development of the Docklands LRT will be a necessary.

The N25 from Midleton is currently the busiest radial route into Cork city and is approaching capacity for a four lane motorway. It serves the commuting towns of Cobh, Glounthaune, Carrigtohill, and Midleton, a combined population of approximately 30,000. The Little Island area, a large industrial estate on the outskirts of Cork just off the N25, supports 8000 workers.

To put all of this in context. The docklands development will add a population of 30,000 and 40,000 jobs, the equivalent of five Little Island Industrial Estates, plus Cobh, Midleton, Carrigtohill, and Glounthaune into a relatively small geographically restricted area.

The new development will need a radical, robust, and progressive transport solution.

How exactly do you expect to do this with buses? It's simply not possible.

namloc1980 · 30-01-2018 2:10pm

bk wrote: »

Well as it stands, the demand certainly isn't currently there for a BRT, never mind a LRT.

Having family there, I spend a lot of time in the area. The 202 is one of the best bus services in Cork. 10 minute frequency and often has modern double deckers on it. Great route which serves Mahon Shopping Center, City Center and up to Apple.

Decent numbers use it, but pretty light compared to any Dublin Bus core route. So on it's own it wouldn't justify BRT.

However hopefully with big redevelopment of the docks and thousands of new apartments, the numbers would be there to support BRT.

A BRT was found to be viable in the 2010 CATS study. That was during the global recession. With economic improvements and population growth, not to mention the docklands expansion I believe the case now is stronger than the one in 2010. A huge mistake would be to build all these offices and residential buildings in the docklands and only then when the place is jammed with cars decide to look at the transport.

bk · 30-01-2018 2:15pm

Frostybrew wrote: »

How exactly do you expect to do this with buses? It's simply not possible.

Balfast has a population almost twice that of Cork and it is only getting it's first BRT now.

I'll need to go read that report, but I seriously doubt Cork has demand high enough to justify LRT.

namloc1980 · 30-01-2018 2:24pm

bk wrote: »

Balfast has a population almost twice that of Cork and it is only getting it's first BRT now.

I'll need to go read that report, but I seriously doubt Cork has demand high enough to justify LRT.

Don't think public transport in NI is a model we should be benchmarking ourselves against to be honest. There are cities in Europe similar in size to Cork with extensive BRT and even LRT systems. Look at Metz for example.

bk · 30-01-2018 2:42pm

namloc1980 wrote: »

Don't think public transport in NI is a model we should be benchmarking ourselves against to be honest. There are cities in Europe similar in size to Cork with extensive BRT and even LRT systems. Look at Metz for example.

Fair enough, good counter argument, though I would worry that the more expensive it is, the less likely it is to get the go ahead.

Also you'd have the issue of maybe having one great LRT line, when the rest of the bus network around the rest of the city is quiet poor and needs more work.

I'd rather see 10 minute frequency on all routes + double deckers and a BRT, then a LRT and the terrible service many routes currently suffer from.

bk · 30-01-2018 2:54pm

Err.. Sorry so I seem to mixing up reports here, having just checked, the 2010 CATS study, suggests BRT, not LRT. Which is exactly what I thought was being suggested for Cork and is inline with what I said above.

Interestingly the CATS study also mentions the need to upgrade all bus routes in the network, not just one BRT route, like I suggested above.

bk · 30-01-2018 3:07pm

So yes, looks at Cork City Councils report here:

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/transportationdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf

It clearly finds BRT to be the more reasonable solution for Cork:

In the context of the current land use plan for the CASP area, this Rapid Transit
Corridor could operate as Bus Rapid Transit (BRT), or similar system. The line’s
maximum flows do not indicate that investment in a fixed rail system such as LRT is
required, even for a 2030 scenario with a greater than 50% growth in population and
employment in the full CASP area compared to 2006 levels;

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 3:43pm

bk wrote: »

So yes, looks at Cork City Councils report here:

http://www.corkcity.ie/services/roadstransportation/transportationdivision/corkareatransitsystemstudy/CATS%20Study%20Final%20Report%20Feb%202010_opt1.pdf

It clearly finds BRT to be the more reasonable solution for Cork:

It does find in favour of BRT, though there's a number details that need to be addressed in relation to the report.

If you have a look at the numbers you'll find that LRT will create a greater economic return in the long term. The BRT system is costed at €300milion delivering a benefit to cost ratio (BCR) of 2.85 including development along the corridor. This equates to an economic return of €555 million to the Cork area. LRT will cost about a billion with a BCR of 1.47 which equates an economic return of €470 million euro. So BRT delivers a greater economic return to the tune of €85 million.

This looks good. But what if you have to upgrade to LRT as demand rises? Then you're in serious trouble, as an extra €700 million is necessary, leaving you €615 million worse off than if you had gone with LRT.

There's an old German saying: "Buy low, Buy twice".

We do that an awful lot in Ireland, and the Germans do excellent public transport.

bk · 30-01-2018 4:17pm

The problem is politically it would be much harder to get 1 billion for LRT for Cork, versus 300 million.

And you have to remember this happening at the same time Cork is also getting a 1 billion M20.

Also you would then have much greater risks with the project actually delivering:

Whilst additional development along the Rapid Transit Corridor is recommended if the
system is developed as BRT, a radical departure from CASP Update would be required
to facilitate implementation of LRT. Furthermore, developing the system as LRT would
be a higher risk strategy, as its operational success would be dependent on significant
future development/ redevelopment along the corridor;

It could easily end up being another WRC and permanently damaging the development of future transport projects.

Also it would take much longer to build.

To be honest, politically unfortunately I just see LRT being a non-runner for Cork. BRT seems to be a better fit for the demand there and politically an easier sell.

Sure, 40 years from now you may well be upgrading it to LRT. But I fear if you try and push for LRT now, you will end up with nothing at all for the next 40 years.

Frostybrew · 30-01-2018 4:44pm

bk wrote: »

The problem is politically it would be much harder to get 1 billion for LRT for Cork, versus 300 million.

And you have to remember this happening at the same time Cork is also getting a 1 billion M20.

Also you would then have much greater risks with the project actually delivering:

It could easily end up being another WRC and permanently damaging the development of future transport projects.

Also it would take much longer to build.

To be honest, politically unfortunately I just see LRT being a non-runner for Cork. BRT seems to be a better fit for the demand there and politically an easier sell.

Sure, 40 years from now you may well be upgrading it to LRT. But I fear if you try and push for LRT now, you will end up with nothing at all for the next 40 years.

The issue of the WRC is irrelevant to this discussion as it had a non existent BCR to begin with. In fact, if a bit more had been spent on it, such as investing in a proper Shannon connection and a more direct route to Galway, it might have turned out as less of a white elephant. Plus it's a completely different type of transport: inter city rail as opposed to mass urban transport.

The fact of the matter is: we as a nation have been consistently underdelivering when it comes to our infrastructure, building half- assed solutions that turn out to be totally inadequate for demand. It's a very long and costly list: including the DART, the LUAS, the M50, the Cork NRR, the Cork SRR, the N25 to Youghal, our airports and many more. Not to mention closing a whole slew of railways just as suburbanisation was about to explode into life around them. For the sake of saving €85 million it's just not worth it.

It wasn't politically viable in 2009 when the report was released, for obvious reasons. Not so now, especially with Brexit forcing a drastic change in economic and infrastructural policy.

You must also remember that that €1 billion for the M20 is for the whole of the western seaboard and not just for Cork.

cgcsb · 30-01-2018 5:13pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Given that the numbers are just not there plus the fact that there are a number of ways to increase capacity in the buses as an alternative, I fear any development of a light rail system outside of the capital at this stage would be to this transport option what the WRC is to heavy rail i.e. kill any other potential development due to low usage and massive subvention

Yes Cork, then Limerick, then Galway will need light rail but not for a long while yet

The numbers are certainly there. Cities the size of Cork and way smaller the world over have good light rail coverage. I think we can abandon the notion of urban public transport infrastructure in this country ever being under utilized, given that has never happened and probably wont because infrastructure is so chronically underfunded. Irish governments tend to prefer to give people an extra €2 a week than build these critical pieces of hardware.

Cork - Light Rail [route options idenfication and initial design underway]

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