Recruitment for British army soars in Republic of Ireland

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 04:13PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

And done what? Written a strongly worded letter?

Maybe if the League of Nations had acted, no country would have had to do anything?

The signatories of Versailles sat on their hands and watched as the Rhineland was illegally remilitarised. They had an opportunity there to put Hitler back in his box. Then you had Chamberlain. Three cheers for Neville! :rolleyes:

As I said, everyone did what they thought best, if you are going to judge one country (Ireland) with the benefit of hindsight, judge them all, including your heroes.

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2017 04:32PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

The signatories of Versailles sat on their hands and watched as the Rhineland was illegally remilitarised. They had an opportunity there to put Hitler back in his box. Then you had Chamberlain. Three cheers for Neville! :rolleyes:

As I said, everyone did what they thought best, if you are going to judge one country (Ireland) with the benefit of hindsight, judge them all, including your heroes.

Good old 20/20 hindsight vision.

You're presuming the people of 1938 thought the Versailles treaty was fair and that it was worth going to war over.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 04:42PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Good old 20/20 hindsight vision.

You're presuming the people of 1938 thought the Versailles treaty was fair and that it was worth going to war over.

I am presuming that somebody who can criticise a country for not getting involved in what would have been a disastrous futile campaign for it (a fledgling nation) could at least countenance the fact that Britain could be equally criticised for not invoking the Treaty of Versailles in 1936 and acting perfectly legally to stop the remilitarising of the Rhineland.
Hitler couldn't believe his luck and, emboldened, went on to hoodwink the hapless Chamberlain.

A Little Pony · 07-01-2017 04:49PM

indioblack wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

No, AFTER they have taken Britain, as he would have been using Ireland as a 'base' in the war with the Soviet Union.

I'd say it was an odd, awkward position for the Free State to be in - certainly by 1940. Germany had swept all before them - why should Britain not go under too? This would leave the Free State in a vulnerable position - neutrality is only as effective as the combatant nations choose it to be.
Joining the Allies would be equally problematic in that year - since the only country to side with would be Britain - and the Free State would still be vulnerable.

Britain was prepared to fight, the RAF was magnificent but it was just a case of holding on. Hitler made one of the biggest errors he made in the war by drifting his attention away from Britain and to the East. He could have invaded as the RAF was struggling.
The Irish state should have did more to support Britain against Nazi Germany, opened the country up for the RAF. A few more Brendan Finucanes would have helped greatly.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 05:08PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Britain was prepared to fight, the RAF was magnificent but it was just a case of holding on. Hitler made one of the biggest errors he made in the war by drifting his attention away from Britain and to the East. He could have invaded as the RAF was struggling.
The Irish state should have did more to support Britain against Nazi Germany, opened the country up for the RAF. A few more Brendan Finucanes would have helped greatly.

Britain along with France principally, were NOT prepared to fight when Germany illegally re-militarised.
That was the BIGGEST error of the lot.

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2017 05:21PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am presuming that somebody who can criticise a country for not getting involved in what would have been a disastrous futile campaign for it (a fledgling nation) could at least countenance the fact that Britain could be equally criticised for not invoking the Treaty of Versailles in 1936 and acting perfectly legally to stop the remilitarising of the Rhineland.
Hitler couldn't believe his luck and, emboldened, went on to hoodwink the hapless Chamberlain.

Surely that was what the L of N was for?

fwiw, I think De Valera got it right during the war, entering the war would have meant stretching the RAF further and could have been catastrophic.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 05:43PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Surely that was what the L of N was for?

fwiw, I think De Valera got it right during the war, entering the war would have meant stretching the RAF further and could have been catastrophic.

Britain and France were in the LON. They did nothing against Japan, Italy or Germany. They never even called their bluff over Rhineland. What did they think Hitler was gonna do?
You cannot single out one country's inaction while ignoring even more important inaction by others.

A Little Pony · 07-01-2017 05:55PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I am presuming that somebody who can criticise a country for not getting involved in what would have been a disastrous futile campaign for it (a fledgling nation) could at least countenance the fact that Britain could be equally criticised for not invoking the Treaty of Versailles in 1936 and acting perfectly legally to stop the remilitarising of the Rhineland.
Hitler couldn't believe his luck and, emboldened, went on to hoodwink the hapless Chamberlain.

Surely that was what the L of N was for?

fwiw, I think De Valera got it right during the war, entering the war would have meant stretching the RAF further and could have been catastrophic.

How would that have stretched the RAF further? It is a cop out, he got it badly wrong and to make it worse, he wrote a letter of condolences when Hitler died.

07-01-2017 06:03PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Good old 20/20 hindsight vision.

Isn't it just remarkable how, for you and other British apologists for Empire, British collaboration/appeasement with Nazi Germany 1932-1939 is justified because, you plead, they didn't have the benefit of hindsight then. This would all be hunky dory except for the comparatively comically insignificant antics of Russell, Stuart and Ryan (and Dev's apology, it appears) never benefit from any such plea from you or your fellow travellers. Alas, 'My country right or wrong' as ever with you. Is this your bed and are these your tissues?

muddypaws · 07-01-2017 06:13PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Britain was prepared to fight, the RAF was magnificent but it was just a case of holding on. Hitler made one of the biggest errors he made in the war by drifting his attention away from Britain and to the East. He could have invaded as the RAF was struggling.
The Irish state should have did more to support Britain against Nazi Germany, opened the country up for the RAF. A few more Brendan Finucanes would have helped greatly.

Why? How about the benefit of hindsight? At the time, Ireland had just got free from an invading force that had been here for centuries. Why would they then fight for that country? What 'Nazi' Germany were doing was not widely known, that is the benefit of hindsight, now we know, so with the knowledge we now have, maybe things would have been different.

Why didn't Britain go into Syria into 2013? Why did the majority of their elected representatives vote against military action? Could it be because they knew that their population was sick of fighting? What is the difference between that and Ireland in the 1930s?

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 06:24PM

muddypaws wrote: »

Why? How about the benefit of hindsight? At the time, Ireland had just got free from an invading force that had been here for centuries. Why would they then fight for that country? What 'Nazi' Germany were doing was not widely known, that is the benefit of hindsight, now we know, so with the knowledge we now have, maybe things would have been different.

Why didn't Britain go into Syria into 2013? Why did the majority of their elected representatives vote against military action? Could it be because they knew that their population was sick of fighting? What is the difference between that and Ireland in the 1930s?

I think ALP's attitude is we should have been grateful cannon fodder again.

LordSutch · 07-01-2017 06:28PM

Cannon fodder again?
What does that mean?

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2017 06:33PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Britain and France were in the LON. They did nothing against Japan, Italy or Germany. They never even called their bluff over Rhineland. What did they think Hitler was gonna do?
You cannot single out one country's inaction while ignoring even more important inaction by others.

Ireland was in the league of nations as well, in fact, it held the presidency between 1940 and 1946. Prior to that, Sean Lester was the LoN commisioner for the free city of Danzig.

Britain and France had lost over 2,000,000 in WWI, they weren't going to jump in to a world war any time soon. The anti war feeling in the UK in particular was huge, even amongst the wealthier classes, who had traditionally been the most jingoistic.

Both countries had seriously de militarised as well and thanks to Nazi propaganda, strongly believed the German army was by now much stronger than it actually was. Add in the fact Italy and Japan both had expansionist plans and both countries knew if any military action started, it would effectively be another world war.

Stalin had just carried out his great purge, so not only was there a nutter with a big army in Germany, there was another one with a ****ing huge army on the east and no one really knew what he was going to do. A healthy strong Germany could come in handy, if Stalin decided to take over europe.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 06:36PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Ireland was in the league of nations as well, in fact, it held the presidency between 1940 and 1946. Prior to that, Sean Lester was the LoN commisioner for the free city of Danzig.

Britain and France had lost over 2,000,000 in WWI, they weren't going to jump in to a world war any time soon. The anti war feeling in the UK in particular was huge, even amongst the wealthier classes, who had traditionally been the most jingoistic.

Both countries had seriously de militarised as well and thanks to Nazi propaganda, strongly believed the German army was by now much stronger than it actually was. Add in the fact Italy and Japan both had expansionist plans and both countries knew if any military action started, it would effectively be another world war.

Stalin had just carried out his great purge, so not only was there a nutter with a big army in Germany, there was another one with a ****ing huge army on the east and no one really knew what he was going to do. A healthy strong Germany could come in handy, if Stalin decided to take over europe.

And if you apply the same reasonable analysis to Ireland's position and actions you will arrive at a 'reasonable' justification for what they did too. As you know. Pity the other defenders of de realm wouldn't do the same.

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2017 06:38PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

How would that have stretched the RAF further? It is a cop out, he got it badly wrong and to make it worse, he wrote a letter of condolences when Hitler died.

the letter of condolence was despicable and the republican movement should absolutely hold its head in shame for what it did during that time, yet today a man who should have been executed as a traitor has a statue paid for by the National Graves association. Duplicitous bunch

If Ireland had declared war, the Luftwaffe would have targetted Ireland and its ports. The very small air force Ireland had would not have been able to cope and the RAF would have had to cover Irish air space as well (some things don't change) meaning their area of coverage would have gone from East Anglia all the way to Kerry.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 06:45PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the letter of condolence was despicable and the republican movement should absolutely hold its head in shame for what it did during that time, yet today a man who should have been executed as a traitor has a statue paid for by the National Graves association. Duplicitous bunch

If Ireland had declared war, the Luftwaffe would have targetted Ireland and its ports. The very small air force Ireland had would not have been able to cope and the RAF would have had to cover Irish air space as well (some things don't change) meaning their area of coverage would have gone from East Anglia all the way to Kerry.

Fred can even be disparaging about our lack of appetite for imperialistic shenanigans around the world and having an air force to do it.
We don't get invaded because we are not a threat to anyone, that is something to be proud not ashamed of.
That we have a neighbour that is a target because of their imperialistic colonial past, is something to regret though.
I'm sure the Americans will one day get fed up bailing them out of their spats, then we are in real trouble.

Dirty Dingus McGee · 07-01-2017 07:27PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

the letter of condolence was despicable and the republican movement should absolutely hold its head in shame for what it did during that time, yet today a man who should have been executed as a traitor has a statue paid for by the National Graves association. Duplicitous bunch

If Ireland had declared war, the Luftwaffe would have targetted Ireland and its ports. The very small air force Ireland had would not have been able to cope and the RAF would have had to cover Irish air space as well (some things don't change) meaning their area of coverage would have gone from East Anglia all the way to Kerry.

De Valera followed correct diplomatic procedure at the time.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 07:39PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

De Valera followed correct diplomatic procedure at the time.

I thought sending condolences on Churchill's death, given his career, a bit off too. But horses for courses I suppose.

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2017 07:44PM

Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »

De Valera followed correct diplomatic procedure at the time.

True, I doubt it would have caused any diplomatic incidents though.

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2017 07:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I thought sending condolences on Churchill's death, given his career, a bit off too. But horses for courses I suppose.

The really sad thing, is that you're actually serious.

indioblack · 07-01-2017 09:02PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fred can even be disparaging about our lack of appetite for imperialistic shenanigans around the world and having an air force to do it.
We don't get invaded because we are not a threat to anyone, that is something to be proud not ashamed of.
That we have a neighbour that is a target because of their imperialistic colonial past, is something to regret though.
I'm sure the Americans will one day get fed up bailing them out of their spats, then we are in real trouble.

World War Two wasn't a "spat".
You can conjecture about what should have happened if European nations, principally Britain and France, had stood up to Hitler before he sent his army into Poland and there would be little people could object to.
The missed point in all this is what happened when the Third Reich was on the move - taking out any neutral country it chose to on the way.
How much hindsight does it take to figure out that a country that overruns the whole of Western Europe is engaged in a bit more than a tiff between neighbours?

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2017 09:14PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Fred can even be disparaging about our lack of appetite for imperialistic shenanigans around the world and having an air force to do it.
We don't get invaded because we are not a threat to anyone, that is something to be proud not ashamed of.
That we have a neighbour that is a target because of their imperialistic colonial past, is something to regret though.
I'm sure the Americans will one day get fed up bailing them out of their spats, then we are in real trouble.

what a load of self righteous bollocks.

Ireland doesn't have an air force because it relies on the RAF. Who do you think it was that pulled the Irish citizens out of Libya when it all kicked off over there?

Who is it that has to escort commercial airlines over Irish airspace when they issue a distress call, or escort Russian bombers flying through Irish controlled airspace with out beacons on?

you really live in cloud cuckoo land sometimes.

07-01-2017 09:31PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

yet today a man who should have been executed as a traitor has a statue paid for by the National Graves association. Duplicitous bunch

My, it gets more deranged. Any sign of you going on a rant against all the streets, memorials and institutions still in Ireland in 2017 glorifying your British royalist cult - you know, the one which presided over centuries of your country's occupation and subjugation of this country and its people?

Of course not. Keep the flag flying, old chap.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 09:36PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

The really sad thing, is that you're actually serious.

One exterminator is pretty much the same as the next to me. Churchill might not have racked up the numbers but he made a fair effort.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 09:40PM

indioblack wrote: »

World War Two wasn't a "spat".
You can conjecture about what should have happened if European nations, principally Britain and France, had stood up to Hitler before he sent his army into Poland and there would be little people could object to.
The missed point in all this is what happened when the Third Reich was on the move - taking out any neutral country it chose to on the way.
How much hindsight does it take to figure out that a country that overruns the whole of Western Europe is engaged in a bit more than a tiff between neighbours?

Do you really think I believe WW2 was a 'spat'?

The fact is the Germans could have been stopped earlier (a treaty had been designed to do just that) but they weren't because as usual Britain was playing po!itics with lives.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 09:46PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

what a load of self righteous bollocks.

Ireland doesn't have an air force because it relies on the RAF. Who do you think it was that pulled the Irish citizens out of Libya when it all kicked off over there?

Who is it that has to escort commercial airlines over Irish airspace when they issue a distress call, or escort Russian bombers flying through Irish controlled airspace with out beacons on?

you really live in cloud cuckoo land sometimes.

Who destabilised those regions? Who can't live on the planet without imperialistic, expansionist notions about themselves only your most favoured nation?

What in gods name would we be doing investing in an RAF style force?
We contribute plenty of resources peacekeeping in places Britain had a part in destroying along with the other 'powers' of the world.
Too bad if they have to help out an odd time.

indioblack · 07-01-2017 10:13PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Do you really think I believe WW2 was a 'spat'?

The fact is the Germans could have been stopped earlier (a treaty had been designed to do just that) but they weren't because as usual Britain was playing po!itics with lives.

I'm pleased we agree on a more accurate definition of a world war.
So Hitler could have been stopped earlier but for Britain.
Neat.
So why give an, [admittedly unrealistic], guarantee to Poland?
Why frantically increase armament production - especially the air force?
Why put an expeditionary force on the continent in the, [equally unrealistic], hope that, with the French, Hitler could be stopped or push back? [In fairness, something like that might have been possible during the period of the phoney war].
Why not sit the whole thing out - the option was there. [if you trusted Hitler's word].
You can have dilatory politicians in Britain, appeasement, political emasculation in France. Put simply, these two countries didn't want another European war.
When Hitler's armies were on the move everything changed.

Fratton Fred · 07-01-2017 10:27PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Who destabilised those regions? Who can't live on the planet without imperialistic, expansionist notions about themselves only your most favoured nation?

What in gods name would we be doing investing in an RAF style force?
We contribute plenty of resources peacekeeping in places Britain had a part in destroying along with the other 'powers' of the world.
Too bad if they have to help out an odd time.

Who destabilised Libya? The people that decided to have a rebellion against their dictator. I thought as an Irishman you'd understand that.

Yeah, sure, Ireland does a lot of peacekeeping missons. They just have to borrow planes to get there and rely on other countries Air Forces to provide transport and air cover.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 10:29PM

indioblack wrote: »

I'm pleased we agree on a more accurate definition of a world war.
So Hitler could have been stopped earlier but for Britain.
Neat.
So why give an, [admittedly unrealistic], guarantee to Poland?
Why frantically increase armament production - especially the air force?
Why put an expeditionary force on the continent in the, [equally unrealistic], hope that, with the French, Hitler could be stopped or push back? [In fairness, something like that might have been possible during the period of the phoney war].
Why not sit the whole thing out - the option was there. [if you trusted Hitler's word].
You can have dilatory politicians in Britain, appeasement, political emasculation in France. Put simply, these two countries didn't want another European war.
When Hitler's armies were on the move everything changed.

The point was made to somebody who was trying to ONLY criticise Ireland for sitting on it's hands.

It is the typical myopic opinion of somebody who only wants to look at a mythical, glorious Albion version of history.
The truth is much more complex.

FrancieBrady · 07-01-2017 10:35PM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Who destabilised Libya? The people that decided to have a rebellion against their dictator. I thought as an Irishman you'd understand that.

Yeah, sure, Ireland does a lot of peacekeeping missons. They just have to borrow planes to get there and rely on other countries Air Forces to provide transport and air cover.

Yeh, Britain has no responsibilities for destabilising the entire region, just like they have no responsibilities here according to the gospel of Fred.

If we are gonna risk men and women cleaning up the mess the least they can do is part pay for it.
You still haven't given us a good reason to maintain an RAF style air force (that Fred thinks works for free

)
*We'll see what kind of armed forces they have 10 yrs out of the EU.

Recruitment for British army soars in Republic of Ireland

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