Irish citizenry rights in UK post Brexit

realitykeeper · 29-12-2016 9:52pm #1

It has been suggested that the Irish may not be able the travel and work in Britain in the event of a hard Brexit and even Irish citizens in the UK may find their status compromised.

After independence, the UK did allow the Irish to live and work in their country and Ireland reciprocated by allowing those who remained loyal to the crown to keep vast estates which had been taken and kept from the Irish since Cromwellian times.

If the status of the Irish in the UK is diminished post Brexit, should the issue of ownership over properties "belonging" to British peers in this country be revisited? These properties are not just large estates but things like river beds and the like.

This is all wildly hypothetical of course but should it happen many families, (by virtue of their surname) should be entitled to shares in certain estates if tolerance of British peerages in this country ends. Such an eventuality could well be bolstered by more recent phenomena such as bank bailouts and evictions. Throw in a catastrophic recession following the eventual and inevitable failure of the ECB quantitative easing program and anything could happen.

paul71 · 29-12-2016 10:41pm

Are you suggesting that the Irish State can grab the private property of Irish Citizens. You will need a referendum to realise your fantasy.

road_high · 29-12-2016 10:50pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

It has been suggested that the Irish may not be able the travel and work in Britain in the event of a hard Brexit and even Irish citizens in the UK may find their status compromised.

After independence, the UK did allow the Irish to live and work in their country and Ireland reciprocated by allowing those who remained loyal to the crown to keep vast estates which had been taken and kept from the Irish since Cromwellian times.

If the status of the Irish in the UK is diminished post Brexit, should the issue of ownership over properties "belonging" to British peers in this country be revisited? These properties are not just large estates but things like river beds and the like.

This is all wildly hypothetical of course but should it happen many families, (by virtue of their surname) should be entitled to shares in certain estates if tolerance of British peerages in this country ends. Such an eventuality could well be bolstered by more recent phenomena such as bank bailouts and evictions. Throw in a catastrophic recession following the eventual and inevitable failure of the ECB quantitative easing program and anything could happen.

Who are these people?! Any I can possibly think of are assimilated into Irish society and I consider them Irish.

oscarBravo · 29-12-2016 11:47pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

It has been suggested that the Irish may not be able the travel and work in Britain in the event of a hard Brexit and even Irish citizens in the UK may find their status compromised.

Who has suggested this?

The Irish in the UK are not considered foreigners. To change this would require repeal of the 1949 Ireland Act. I haven't seen any indication that such a repeal is planned.

dresden8 · 29-12-2016 11:49pm

I think the point is nobody knows what Brexit means.

The Brits want full membership without all the nasty side effects, Europe is saying no.

This is a clusterfnck of epic proportions and absolutely nobody knows what anything means until article 50 is triggered and the EU start playing hardball.

Everything else is just rubbish.

realitykeeper · 30-12-2016 12:05am

road_high wrote: »

Who are these people?! Any I can possibly think of are assimilated into Irish society and I consider them Irish.

I will not mention specific individuals but I can tell you it is laughable to suggest they are assimilated in Irish society, they don`t even live here. Indeed I suspect some of them would be highly insulted at that suggestion.

realitykeeper · 30-12-2016 12:11am

paul71 wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the Irish State can grab the private property of Irish Citizens. You will need a referendum to realise your fantasy.

Give it a little time. You may find yourself baying loudest for such measures. The economy will implode in 2017 and then we will see just how civilized this country really is.

30-12-2016 12:22am

The OP is deluded concerning estates but the issue of Irish/UK residence rights is not as simple as it seems.

Negotiations will be EU/UK and side deals will not be permitted. What the Irish and British PMs have said about cross residence rights are their intentions, but bringing it about will require the agreement of the other EU countries, especially if we want an open border. While there is a lot of good will from the other member states towards the Irish situation, the pitch could get queered by other issues; for example Gibralter/Spain... which could create an almighty mess.

paul71 · 30-12-2016 5:33pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Give it a little time. You may find yourself baying loudest for such measures. The economy will implode in 2017 and then we will see just how civilized this country really is.

Sorry to disappoint you but my tinfoil hat is purely a Halloween costume.

solodeogloria · 30-12-2016 5:49pm

Good afternoon,

realitykeeper wrote: »

It has been suggested that the Irish may not be able the travel and work in Britain in the event of a hard Brexit and even Irish citizens in the UK may find their status compromised.

If the status of the Irish in the UK is diminished post Brexit, should the issue of ownership over properties "belonging" to British peers in this country be revisited? These properties are not just large estates but things like river beds and the like.

The key question is who by? From the perspective of Britain I can't see them rescinding rights to Irish people. It would cause a constitutional issue in Northern Ireland where people have been afforded the right to choose their citizenship for a start.

The reason I ask is who by is that it is conceivable that the EU could put pressure on Ireland to revoke rights on British citizens and insist that the border should be policed. Michel Barnier on the EU Commission side has stated that he's aware of the issues in respect to Ireland, but the Article 50 negotiations will be a real test of this.

Another reason why asking who by is significant is that if it is the European Commission that cause issues with the Irish border and as a result the privileges afforded to us by Britain since the Republic of Ireland Act in 1949 how can British landowners be held responsible for it?

That's without saying it's a bit Stalinesque to insist on seizing properties in the 21st century.

realitykeeper wrote: »

After independence, the UK did allow the Irish to live and work in their country and Ireland reciprocated by allowing those who remained loyal to the crown to keep vast estates which had been taken and kept from the Irish since Cromwellian times.

Ireland also reciprocated in terms of entitling British citizens the same right in Ireland.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

realitykeeper · 30-12-2016 11:41pm

It is also possible that the EU could break up following the failure of the QE program in 2017. The med countries are in a different situation to the Nordic countries and this will hasten the demise of the union. As for Ireland, it has been very irresponsible in managing its economy. I think that will change though. By summertime Ireland will be sacking many thousands of state employees and not because they want a pay rise. I think Irish politicians will suddenly realize the economy is about to hit a wall at breakneck speed and mass redundancies before impact may make it a survivable event.

PopePalpatine · 31-12-2016 12:38am

So what you're saying is that private property should be seized by the State? That reminds me of some much-maligned political ideology, I just can't recall it right now...;)

realitykeeper · 31-12-2016 11:56am

PopePalpatine wrote: »

So what you're saying is that private property should be seized by the State? That reminds me of some much-maligned political ideology, I just can't recall it right now...;)

I am suggesting nothing of the kind. Property must be earned or legitimately inherited. Taking something by conquest does not make it yours.

31-12-2016 12:54pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Taking something by conquest does not make it yours.

It was perfectly legal at the time. The 'Irish', if such a concept existed then, did it to each other all the time.

Timberrrrrrrr · 31-12-2016 1:09pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

It is also possible that the EU could break up following the failure of the QE program in 2017. The med countries are in a different situation to the Nordic countries and this will hasten the demise of the union. As for Ireland, it has been very irresponsible in managing its economy. I think that will change though. By summertime Ireland will be sacking many thousands of state employees and not because they want a pay rise. I think Irish politicians will suddenly realize the economy is about to hit a wall at breakneck speed and mass redundancies before impact may make it a survivable event.

Ah stop man

You have been predicting this waffle for years and constantly "revisiting " the dates (years) that it will happen :rolleyes:

paul71 · 31-12-2016 4:46pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ah stop man

You have been predicting this waffle for years and constantly "revisiting " the dates (years) that it will happen :rolleyes:

Yeap 3 years 8 months ago was the first time he predicted here. Must be terrible to be disappointed so often in the failed doomsday prediction cult.

myshirt · 31-12-2016 4:54pm

This is exactly like feminism.

They want all the good stuff, and no way to the bad stuff.

Equal pay - yeah we'll take some of that.

Pay for the meal at the restaurant - no way, you can keep that.

Somehow we seem to have engendered a culture of fantasy and fairytale within our millennials when it comes to economic and societal issues. Plainly, it is a hard Brexit or no Brexit. Many need to come to terms with that.

Del2005 · 31-12-2016 5:03pm

myshirt wrote: »

This is exactly like feminism.

They want all the good stuff, and no way to the bad stuff.

Equal pay - yeah we'll take some of that.

Pay for the meal at the restaurant - no way, you can keep that.

Somehow we seem to have engendered a culture of fantasy and fairytale within our millennials when it comes to economic and societal issues. Plainly, it is a hard Brexit or no Brexit. Many need to come to terms with that.

The millennials voted to stay though, it's the elderly who voted out. So it looks like your culture of fantasy and fairytale is the Baby Boomers not the Millennials.

Plainly it's that no one has a clue what sort of Brexit there will be, which isn't good for anyone. Not being helped by the rethoric coming out of the UK.

InTheTrees · 31-12-2016 5:05pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

and Ireland reciprocated by allowing those who remained loyal to the crown to keep vast estates which had been taken and kept from the Irish since Cromwellian times.

Cromwellian times??

The british invaded in the 1100's why not confiscate all those lands that were taken then as well while you're at it?

InTheTrees · 31-12-2016 5:12pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

This is all wildly hypothetical of course but should it happen many families, (by virtue of their surname) should be entitled to shares in certain estates if tolerance of British peerages in this country ends.

What about the old irish chieftans who had to drop their celtic titles and accept english peerages to avoid having all their properties seized by the crown?

realitykeeper · 01-01-2017 11:11am

Deleted User wrote: »

It was perfectly legal at the time. The 'Irish', if such a concept existed then, did it to each other all the time.

Aha! So what you are saying is that because the English steal from each other, Russia is entitled to invade and conquer. I don`t think so. Russia acts on principle not greed.

realitykeeper · 01-01-2017 11:12am

InTheTrees wrote: »

Cromwellian times??

The british invaded in the 1100's why not confiscate all those lands that were taken then as well while you're at it?

Certainly

realitykeeper · 01-01-2017 11:15am

InTheTrees wrote: »

What about the old irish chieftans who had to drop their celtic titles and accept english peerages to avoid having all their properties seized by the crown?

The Irish chieftains were given 30 days to leave or they would lose everything. They left.

realitykeeper · 01-01-2017 11:17am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Ah stop man

You have been predicting this waffle for years and constantly "revisiting " the dates (years) that it will happen :rolleyes:

Ah but until now, I have never said it will happen this year. It will happen this year.

PopePalpatine · 01-01-2017 6:22pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

Aha! So what you are saying is that because the English steal from each other, Russia is entitled to invade and conquer. I don`t think so. Russia acts on principle not greed.

Yep, Lebensraum is a totally un-greedy principle. :rolleyes:

realitykeeper · 02-01-2017 11:37am

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Yep, Lebensraum is a totally un-greedy principle. :rolleyes:

That is an old fashioned German concept, it has nothing to do with Russia.

02-01-2017 11:49am

realitykeeper wrote: »

Aha! So what you are saying is that because the English steal from each other, Russia is entitled to invade and conquer. I don`t think so. Russia acts on principle not greed.

Nobody mentioned Russia. My point is that Irish tribes in the middle ages were at constant war with each other. Weaker tribes were forced to comply with the strongers wishes. The norman conquest and the later 'surrender and regrant' policies (which was also used in England) were welcomed by many of the weaker Irish clans. To revise history into an Irish vs English story in the middle ages is just wishful thinking.

InTheTrees · 02-01-2017 1:40pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

The Irish chieftains were given 30 days to leave or they would lose everything. They left.

No idea what that means. Where did they go?

realitykeeper · 02-01-2017 11:57pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Nobody mentioned Russia. My point is that Irish tribes in the middle ages were at constant war with each other. Weaker tribes were forced to comply with the strongers wishes. The norman conquest and the later 'surrender and regrant' policies (which was also used in England) were welcomed by many of the weaker Irish clans. To revise history into an Irish vs English story in the middle ages is just wishful thinking.

I mentioned Russia. My point is if we extend the same reasoning to the present day and apply it to England, then a larger and more powerful country such as Russia could subjugate the English.

realitykeeper · 03-01-2017 12:00am

InTheTrees wrote: »

No idea what that means. Where did they go?

A lot of them went to France. Hugh O`Neill went to Rome and died there shortly after.

realitykeeper · 03-01-2017 12:09am

myshirt wrote: »

This is exactly like feminism.

They want all the good stuff, and no way to the bad stuff.

Equal pay - yeah we'll take some of that.

Pay for the meal at the restaurant - no way, you can keep that.

Somehow we seem to have engendered a culture of fantasy and fairytale within our millennials when it comes to economic and societal issues. Plainly, it is a hard Brexit or no Brexit. Many need to come to terms with that.

I saw an advert today, I forget the name but it was an insurance company established by a woman specializing in motor insurance for women. I had to laugh, fair play to her. I am a man but of course I can appreciate how unfair it is on women having to pay the same insurance as men when they have fewer accidents and smaller claims. By specializing in motor insurance for women, that woman can offer other women cheaper motor insurance without having to factor in higher costs caused by male drivers because the product she is selling is exclusively for the female market.

The judiciary can put that in their pipes and smoke it.

Irish citizenry rights in UK post Brexit

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