Finland to test 'universal basic income' for the unemployed

4068ac1elhodqr · 30-12-2016 12:19AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

I doubt that to be honest. If it does happen the world economy is fcuked.

There is nothing to doubt, it's already happening.

Folks such as Hammond, the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, spoke this year not of the NWO, nor global trade, but instead emphasised the inward need for them to prepare and get on the fourth industrial revolution gravy train. Particularly ai, automation, robotics and to a certain extent - the creative industries, science(r&d) and programming.

If you've bought something some e.g. Amazon this year, then you've already contributed to it. You've used their mega-efficient warehousing logistics that is steadily replacing warehouse staff with auto bots.

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 12:19AM

Butters1979 wrote: »

More money for people to do nothing. And whenever anyone who earns a living challenges this subsidisation for the lazy they're told to 'become a banker' because apparently not only is that the only form of economic parasite; it's real easy for everyone to do. Socialism is a disease.

The disease here is a projected capitalism that can't employ most people in the future - possibly you or your progeny.

Ulysses Gaze · 30-12-2016 12:20AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Automation has made manufacturing much cheaper, plus the practice of using the flimsiest materials to shorten its working life.
It's the marketing of the "new & improved" widget that is driving growth, the technological "arms race" will continue indefinitely. Do you really need to upgrade that phone?
What does the new phone do that the old one can't?
Perceived obsolescence most likely.
Same employees just get moved to another production line and there's only a limited number of app dev jobs out there. not if you look at the growth in jobs verses the growth in population plus all the job losses in declining sectors. Chinese software is crap at the moment, but I expect that they'll come good in the near future.
The only sectors that will see real job growth are the hospitality and healthcare support areas, in other words hotel and nursing home staff. Both sectors that traditionally pay the lowest wage possible.

This article is from 2014 but you can see where the Government in Denmark is going with Tech in social care:

The robots are a key part of the "welfare modernisation strategy", Denmark announced last September. The aim is to use technology to cut 12bn kroner (£1.3bn) from the government's welfare budget by 2020.

According to a survey by DaneAge, which represents elderly people in Denmark, 84% of managers responsible for elderly care in the country's municipalities either already use or are about to start using robot vacuum cleaners.

https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2014/feb/13/denmark-robotic-helpers-transform-care-older-people

They've also been testing other protoypes in Nursing Homes

http://odensehealth.dk/south-denmark-tests-robots-for-elderly-home-care-in-eu-project/

The Japanese are miles ahead in this space:

http://news.panasonic.com/global/stories/2016/44969.html

Resyone
Panasonic developed Resyone, a combination of electric nursing care bed and an electric full reclining wheelchair. Resyone's bed splits in half and one half transforms into a reclining wheelchair. Caregivers no longer have to lift residents from the bed to the wheelchair, so it reduces the strain on both the caregiver and residents and also helps maintains residents' dignity.
Resyone became the world's first product to receive the ISO13482 certification, the new global safety standard for personal care robots.

Self-Reliance Support Robot
The Self-Reliance Support Robot assists the elderly when moving from the bed to the restroom, chairs etc. and empowers them to perform everyday tasks, such as using the restroom and watching television. This robot senses the slightest of movement and can predict how the elderly is doing based on the information gathered by the sensors. The motors in this robot only provide the level of power necessary, that is lacking, allowing residents to use their own remaining muscle strength and thereby prevents unnecessary muscle atrophy and strain. The robot also reduces strain for the caregiver as well, because they will no longer have to use their own physical strength.

To help realize a better life, Panasonic will continue to develop robots that provide assistance in a wide range of fields that are safe to use and offers peace of mind.

30-12-2016 12:20AM

Recent history has shown that successful 'entrepreneurs' usually get bought out by big business (google, Microsoft and the like) and are turned into small cogs in the big machine, so in the end they actually create very few new jobs.

Ulysses Gaze · 30-12-2016 12:23AM

Matteo Fat Jug wrote: »

There is nothing to doubt, it's already happening.

Folks such as Hammond, the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, spoke this year not of the NWO, nor global trade, but instead emphasised the inward need for them to prepare and get on the fourth industrial revolution gravy train. Particularly ai, automation, robotics and to a certain extent - the creative industries, science(r&d) and programming.

If you've bought something some e.g. Amazon this year, then you've already contributed to it. You've used their mega-efficient warehousing logistics that is steadily replacing warehouse staff with auto bots.

When Politicians, usually the last to know or admit these things, start mentioning this, then you know it is being taken very seriously.

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 12:23AM

Matteo Fat Jug wrote: »

There is nothing to doubt, it's already happening.

Folks such as Hammond, the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, spoke this year not of the NWO, nor global trade, but instead emphasised the inward need for them to prepare and get on the fourth industrial revolution gravy train. Particularly ai, automation, robotics and to a certain extent - the creative industries, science(r&d) and programming.

If you've bought something some e.g. Amazon this year, then you've already contributed to it. You've used their mega-efficient warehousing logistics that is steadily replacing warehouse staff with auto bots.

Maybe, you could argue that savings on amazon purchases (if any) are spent elsewhere in the local economy of course. That would need empirical study.

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 12:24AM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

When Politicians, usually the last to know or admit these things, start mentioning this, then you know it is being taken very seriously.

Politicians often follow economic trends.

suicide_circus · 30-12-2016 12:27AM

This is unnatural

30-12-2016 12:28AM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

This article is from 2014 but you can see where the Government in Denmark is going with Tech in social care:

https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2014/feb/13/denmark-robotic-helpers-transform-care-older-people

They've also been testing other protoypes in Nursing Homes

http://odensehealth.dk/south-denmark-tests-robots-for-elderly-home-care-in-eu-project/

The Japanese are miles ahead in this space:

http://news.panasonic.com/global/stories/2016/44969.html

All of those healthcare innovations are to make the care workers jobs easier, not to replace them.

Anyway, these trends prove the need for an alternative to "unemployment" which is where this thread started.

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 12:28AM

Ulysses Gaze wrote: »

This article is from 2014 but you can see where the Government in Denmark is going with Tech in social care:

https://www.theguardian.com/social-care-network/2014/feb/13/denmark-robotic-helpers-transform-care-older-people

They've also been testing other protoypes in Nursing Homes

http://odensehealth.dk/south-denmark-tests-robots-for-elderly-home-care-in-eu-project/

The Japanese are miles ahead in this space:

http://news.panasonic.com/global/stories/2016/44969.html

I don't want to drive this thread off UBI and whether it would work (so I am not arguing against the technical assumptions of AI) but there are reasons why the Japanese invest in care home robotics and it's the lack of workers. Not the other way around. The unemployment rate is 3%

30-12-2016 12:33AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

Maybe, you could argue that savings on amazon purchases (if any) are spent elsewhere in the local economy of course. That would need empirical study.

Usually in rising rents, no one is allowed to accumulate money in the present economy, it either gets taxed out of us, or the cost of something goes up to swallow it.

4068ac1elhodqr · 30-12-2016 12:33AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

Maybe, you could argue that savings on amazon purchases (if any) are spent elsewhere in the local economy of course. That would need empirical study.

It's mainly time-saving. Time that could be better used in general progress.

The alternative to getting 15 items from different suppliers delivered more or less for free, within 3 days. - Would be for lots of folks to spend a couple of days searching, checking stock, each driving around, parking and collecting these items from various suitable outlets. That isn't in anyone's interest.

30-12-2016 12:35AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

I don't want to drive this thread off UBI and whether it would work (so I am not arguing against the technical assumptions of AI) but there are reasons why the Japanese invest in care home robotics and it's the lack of workers. Not the other way around. The unemployment rate is 3%

Japan has an ageing population and rapidly falling birthrate, there simply aren't enough working age people to look after the elderly.

[OT] one of the reasons that countries like Germany want migrants[/OT]

lifeandtimes · 30-12-2016 12:38AM

"Participants will be randomly picked from a pool of people aged 25-58 years old who received unemployment benefits in November 2016. Those selected to take part will be informed by December 31 and will not be able to opt out from participating in the trial."

Finland:We will be giving you money
Person: but what if I don't want it?
Finland: You will be taking the money
Person: but where did the money come from because I was scammed before with this free speed boat promotion and....?
Finland: SHUT UP AND TAKE THE FREE MONEY!!!

4068ac1elhodqr · 30-12-2016 12:38AM

Worth noting UBI will likely only be an option for the most low-skilled.
There will still be plenty of skilled jobs for the able, this is due to an ageing population,
by 2050 16% of the earth will be 65+, probably laden with c, diabetes and arthritis.

ChikiChiki · 30-12-2016 12:39AM

I can tell you straight up OP this will never work.

darkpagandeath · 30-12-2016 12:40AM

Deleted User wrote: »

With all the automation and elimination of semi-skilled forms of employment, it makes sense to de-stigmatise the fact of being unemployed. The basic income will only provide for a survivable way of life of course.

All jobs would need to pay enough to make it worthwhile getting to a place of work each day and back again and the basic income would need to remain to maintain an improvement in standards of living.

Great post, There will be fewer and fewer low end jobs going into the future. We will all be screwed when the 3 rd world catches up and no one to pay very little for products and services. need to move more to this and faster and tagging on education possibilities for a bit of extra cash upskilling further. Unless we get into colonisation of the solar system pretty fast we will all become stagnated and on par educations wise and expectancy of wage.

30-12-2016 12:47AM

Amazon have just upped the automation a notch!

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38458867
Amazon has filed a patent for massive flying warehouses equipped with fleets of drones that deliver goods to key locations.
Carried by an airship, the warehouses would visit places Amazon expects demand for certain goods to boom.
It says one use could be near sporting events or festivals where they would sell food or souvenirs to spectators.
The patent also envisages a series of support vehicles that would be used to restock the flying structures.

The filing significantly expands on Amazon's plans to use drones to make deliveries. Earlier this month it made the first commercial delivery using a drone via a test scheme running in Cambridge.
In the documents detailing the scheme, Amazon said the combination of drones and flying warehouses, or "airborne fulfilment centres", would deliver goods much more quickly than those stationed at its ground-based warehouses.
Also, it said, the drones descending from the AFCs - which would cruise and hover at altitudes up to 45,000ft (14,000m) - would use almost no power as they glided down to make deliveries.
Many firms working on drones are struggling with ways to extend their relatively short range, which is typically dependent on the size of the battery they carry.
The patent lays out a comprehensive scheme for running a fleet of AFCs and drones. It suggests smaller airships could act as shuttles taking drones, supplies and even workers to and from the larger AFCs.

Looks like there's not a single human anywhere in the system, apart from maintenance.

darkpagandeath · 30-12-2016 12:51AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Amazon have just upped the automation a notch!

Looks like there's not a single human anywhere in the system, apart from maintenance.

No brainer really, don't get sick or have days off or get tired only break down. 2 lads could probably keep it maintained. With a team of 4-5 to doing the repairs. Prob less once you get a handle on average failure rates and wear out cycles. Keep in x number of entire replacements items so failures can be worked on without drop in productivity. Have to remember the amount of loss in a system due to humans is huge.

30-12-2016 12:59AM

darkpagandeath wrote: »

No brainer really, don't get sick or have days off or get tired only break down. 2 lads could probably keep it maintained. With a team of 4-5 to doing the repairs. Prob less once you get a handle on average failure rates and wear out cycles. Keep in x number of entire replacements items so failures can be worked on without drop in productivity. Have to remember the amount of loss in a system due to humans is huge.

True, just goes to provide more evidence that the UBI will be a requirement in the future, otherwise "unemployment" could skyrocket in the future.
There are only so many "make work" jobs that can be invented.

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 01:14AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Japan has an ageing population and rapidly falling birthrate, there simply aren't enough working age people to look after the elderly.

[OT] one of the reasons that countries like Germany want migrants[/OT]

Yes but... If robotics works to replace a worker shortage then it's not a problem. the claim is mass unemployment

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 01:16AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Amazon have just upped the automation a notch!

Looks like there's not a single human anywhere in the system, apart from maintenance.

There's nothing new in this sort of automation. Factorys have been roboticised for years.

30-12-2016 01:25AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

There's nothing new in this sort of automation. Factories have been automated for years.

I think you mean warehouses, but Amazon have a patented a process that has bypassed the delivery drivers here.

30-12-2016 01:26AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

Yes but... If robotics works to replace a worker shortage then it's not a problem. the claim is mass unemployment

Would you want a robot to wipe your arse?

4068ac1elhodqr · 30-12-2016 01:30AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

There's nothing new in this sort of automation. Factorys have been roboticised for years.

Ah but they were dumb single repetitive task machines, the new ones are adaptive self-learning machines ai entities.

Ironically, France had been seeking to scrap the 35hr max work week so folks could be forced to work up to 48hrs and have less holidays.

When (unless they want everyone on UBI, and out playing golf), should cap the work-week at 24-32hrs to get more folks working by 2030.

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 01:35AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Would you want a robot to wipe your arse?

Yeh. When time comes. Or a machine.

Although one again it seems like we are being pessimistic about technology - it will eliminate jobs but won't help dementia.

But we are off topic. Is there a way, assuming automation is going to end jobs, that we can keep employment high. Maybe start work later and end it earlier? So no UBI just student grants and pensions.

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 01:36AM

Matteo Fat Jug wrote: »

Ah but they were dumb single repetitive task machines, the new ones are adaptive self-learning machines ai entities.

Ironically, France had been seeking to scrap the 35hr max work week so folks could be forced to work up to 48hrs and have less holidays.

When (unless they want everyone on UBI, and out playing golf), should cap the work-week at 24-32hrs to get more folks working by 2030.

What is the self learning?

4068ac1elhodqr · 30-12-2016 01:39AM

Yourself isit wrote: »

What is the self learning?

AI that acts similar (or better) than human intuition in problem solving.

30-12-2016 01:42AM

Matteo Fat Jug wrote: »

Ah but they were dumb single repetitive task machines, the new ones are adaptive self-learning machines ai entities.

Ironically, France had been seeking to scrap the 35hr max work week so folks could be forced to work up to 48hrs and have less holidays.

When (unless they want everyone on UBI, and out playing golf), should cap the work-week at 24-32hrs to get more folks working by 2030.

Introducing longer working hours does appear to be very counter-intuitive in a world of reducing employment opportunities, but business and finance often goes off on a tangent when faced with situations like this.

The old joke used to be "how do you shorten the dole queues?"
Make them stand two abreast!
In reality, two 30 hour jobs, plus UBI could solve the employment issue as well as preventing a rebellious underclass from forming. It also has the bonus of possibly providing for extra public transit jobs as there will be two rush hours each morning and evening.

Yourself isit · 30-12-2016 02:17AM

Matteo Fat Jug wrote: »

AI that acts similar (or better) than human intuition in problem solving.

No. I was asking about the self learning in amazon's warehouses. I know the theory of AI, nothing very good in practice though.

Finland to test 'universal basic income' for the unemployed

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