El Presidente Trump

Renegade Mechanic · 29-12-2016 12:56PM

Billy86 wrote: »

So I take it we're going to have Trump fans in here all day praising Obama for his good work in securing those jobs, then? :pac:

Then again, with Obama it'll only be 5,000 more on top of the 11,500,000 (8,500,000 full time) that he's already created.

You see, saying things like that makes you look exactly as rabid as the "trumplodytes", just on the other side.

Do yourself a service and look up how America tallies it's employment figures.
http://thesovereigninvestor.com/us-economy/fake-jobs-plague-u-s-economy/

Or here, if you can't bear to see Hitlers name mentioned in a news article.
https://www.ijr.com/2014/09/175800-obamas-economic-performance-outshining-reagans/amp/

You lot can call em stupid all you want, but turn around and earnestly believe 11.5 million jobs? :pac:

Renegade Mechanic · 29-12-2016 12:57PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You might say that, but i couldnt possibly comment.

It's at least a bit ironic that it's the champions of 'telling it like it is' who are crying about terms that hurt their feelings. If the shoe fits...

You keep saying it, I keep not seeing it. I suppose if you tell a lie often enough, someone will take it as truth.

Billy86 · 29-12-2016 01:04PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

You might say that, but i couldnt possibly comment.

It's at least a bit ironic that it's the champions of 'telling it like it is' who are crying about terms that hurt their feelings. If the shoe fits...

And safe spaces, don't forget their need for safe spaces!

HellSquirrel · 29-12-2016 01:26PM

Billy86 wrote: »

And safe spaces, don't forget their need for safe spaces!

They've given up on that since the "Theatre should be a safe place" incident from Trump.

It is going to be sodding annoying to watch Trump claim the plaudits and demand adulation for the work of the Obama administration (and blame Obama for anything he does that doesn't work out) for the next four years.

It's just so..squirmworthy to see some narcissistic dimwit be lauded for the work of someone else while the man who did the work (and his people) get the blame for whatever the dingbat does (as well as his own mistakes, bet Trump won't be claiming them!). It's really like living in topsy-turvy land. And it's so damned blatant! Even if they're trolling rather than actually believing it, you have to wonder how people find such unfair idiocy entertaining.

robindch · 29-12-2016 01:29PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's at least a bit ironic that it's the champions of 'telling it like it is' who are crying [...]

Always seemed to me that the "telling it like it is..." phrase is missing "...on the badly-made youtube videos my friends send me".

El_Duderino 09 · 29-12-2016 01:42PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote:

You keep saying it, I keep not seeing it. I suppose if you tell a lie often enough, someone will take it as truth.

It's in the voter demographics. You're always linking to various articles so i have complete faith in your ability to look up the numbers. Without much research I can see that trump won his core demographic white people without a college degree by 39points 67-28. That's huge.

I'd prefer to see a better breakdown by education like junior cert equivalent, leaving cert equivalent, degree, postgraduate and PhD level.

Naturally those figures are skewed by earnings and promises of a tax cut for the wealthy. But the main ones of relevance to this discussion would be how much trump won whites without a college degree (he won by about 39%) and whites with varing levels of education up to degree.

But you knew this already so why all the push back? Is it because I keep describing them as low information voters?

robindch · 29-12-2016 01:43PM

HellSquirrel wrote: »

It's really like living in topsy-turvy land. And it's so damned blatant! Even if they're trolling rather than actually believing it, you have to wonder how people find such unfair idiocy entertaining.

It's the first resort of the dispossessed, the powerless and the angry - to do what they can to frustrate people who aren't.

The US historian, Timothy Snyder, has written about how this media policy of incessant angry trolling has been used successfully by - you guessed it - Putin in order to expand his influence and direct European and world politics in a direction useful to him. The broad policy is to create confusion and disillusion amongst stable people and institutions, and to do what he can to destroy the idea of an objective reality, reducing everything instead to a post-modern series of conflicting views where the floor and the direction is owned by whoever shouts the loudest.

This video has Snyder discussing most of the details - go to about 20/25 minutes in to get to the current day and skip the (interesting) earlier history of Ukraine, how that's relevant to what's going on and specifically, how the Russian double-invasion of Ukraine since 2014 has been the test-bed for this destructive, dangerous policy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKFObB6_naw

A Little Pony · 29-12-2016 01:53PM

Talking about the education of voters is another reason Trump won. Who gives a damn about the education of voters? They vote on what they believe in, they don't need a degree to be able to know who to vote for. Hillary was a boring fart and The Donald was brilliant and entertaining to watch.

Jelle1880 · 29-12-2016 01:55PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Talking about the education of voters is another reason Trump won. Who gives a damn about the education of voters? They vote on what they believe in, they don't need a degree to be able to know who to vote for. Hillary was a boring fart and The Donald was brilliant and entertaining to watch.

Yeah we know, you keep repeating it every single time after all. Almost like you're just repeating ad infinitum what other Trump-fans say.

InTheTrees · 29-12-2016 01:56PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Talking about the education of voters is another reason Trump won. Who gives a damn about the education of voters? They vote on what they believe in, they don't need a degree to be able to know who to vote for. Hillary was a boring fart and The Donald was brilliant and entertaining to watch.

QED

:rolleyes:

Wanderer78 · 29-12-2016 01:59PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Talking about the education of voters is another reason Trump won. Who gives a damn about the education of voters? They vote on what they believe in, they don't need a degree to be able to know who to vote for. Hillary was a boring fart and The Donald was brilliant and entertaining to watch.

something is wrong with society if many find this to be true. his method of 'entertainment' is what i call 'entertainment by humiliation', and intelligence most certainly is not a part of it!

A Little Pony · 29-12-2016 02:01PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Talking about the education of voters is another reason Trump won. Who gives a damn about the education of voters? They vote on what they believe in, they don't need a degree to be able to know who to vote for. Hillary was a boring fart and The Donald was brilliant and entertaining to watch.

Yeah we know, you keep repeating it every single time after all. Almost like you're just repeating ad infinitum what other Trump-fans say.

Then stop repeating bollocks which has no bearing or relevance at all. It is such a stupid thing to bring up when everyone knows you don't need a degree to be able to vote and even then having a degree doesn't mean you understand the issues more.

Most university folk these days are leftists indoctrinated by Marxist thinking. You would be better not going to university if you want to learn about world politics.

Wanderer78 · 29-12-2016 02:03PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Then stop repeating bollocks which has no bearing or relevance at all. It is such a stupid thing to bring up when everyone knows you don't need a degree to be able to vote and even then having a degree doesn't mean you understand the issues more.

Most university folk these days are leftists indoctrinated by Marxist thinking. You would be better not going to university if you want to learn about world politics.

whats wrong with leftist thinking?

Billy86 · 29-12-2016 02:04PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

You see, saying things like that makes you look exactly as rabid as the "trumplodytes", just on the other side.

Do yourself a service and look up how America tallies it's employment figures.
http://thesovereigninvestor.com/us-economy/fake-jobs-plague-u-s-economy/

Or here, if you can't bear to see Hitlers name mentioned in a news article.
https://www.ijr.com/2014/09/175800-obamas-economic-performance-outshining-reagans/amp/

You lot can call em stupid all you want, but turn around and earnestly believe 11.5 million jobs? :pac:

I see you've changed from claiming the 11.5mn jobs created under Obama's presidency are "2 hour contracts" (because 8.5mn are fully time) to instead just going to tinfoil hat websites claiming there are no new jobs because the Bureau of Labor Statistics supposedly makes up 200,000 fake jobs out of thin air every month without anybody noticing and tries to use that to claim that unemployment has gone UP since 2009! :pac:

Oh, wait, now I get it. I searched for 'Obama' on their website and got the following
- How Obama Wants to Steal Your Gold
- Obama Market Meltdown (despite the Dow being higher than ever)
- His Majesty King Obama's War
- Obama's Batting Practice (which opens "President Barack Obama, (now frequenting a back yard or college campus near you), is engaging in his own desperate batting practice, using American business as his whipping boy.")
- Obama: Curbing American Freedom
- Obama and Der Führerprinzip
- This gem - http://thesovereigninvestor.com/government-politics/obamas-great-depression-myth/ - claiming the severity of the 2008 crash was a complete myth, and just a power grab by - you guessed it - Barack Obama.

Yeah... seems legit!

robindch · 29-12-2016 02:14PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Then stop repeating bollocks [....] Most university folk these days are leftists indoctrinated by Marxist thinking. You would be better not going to university if you want to learn about world politics.

It's easy to see why you would be interested in an uneducated population since lack of education is one of the most prominent correlates with likelihood to vote for DT:

http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/education-not-income-predicted-who-would-vote-for-trump/
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2016-08-12/education-level-sharply-divides-clinton-trump-race

No wonder DT ran a fraudulent "university".

robindch · 29-12-2016 02:16PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

whats wrong with leftist thinking?

What wrong with it is that it's not likely to vote for DT and the GOP.

Jelle1880 · 29-12-2016 02:19PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Then stop repeating bollocks which has no bearing or relevance at all. It is such a stupid thing to bring up when everyone knows you don't need a degree to be able to vote and even then having a degree doesn't mean you understand the issues more.

Most university folk these days are leftists indoctrinated by Marxist thinking. You would be better not going to university if you want to learn about world politics.

The irony almost hurts.

HellSquirrel · 29-12-2016 02:20PM

Mind you, is it just me or have we all become a bit indoctrinated into -American- style "left" and "right"? A lot of people have become interested in politics this year and, honestly, more or less cut their political teeth on Brexit and the US election. Maybe go back to one or two of the referenda that Ireland had too, but there has been a surge of interest since fecking Trump hoved on the horizon.

I'll absolutely admit openly that while I had some interest now and again, I have never had as much information or interest in politics as I have this year. And I am certain that I am not the only one, even in this thread.

But the downside is that we're all eating and drinking American concepts of left and right, republican, democrat, all the rest rather than those of our own countries - even our own -continent-. Can we expect to see a surge in American political identity in Europe replacing our own systems and way of thinking due to saturation of American politics and ignorance of the subtle differences in European politics?

El_Duderino 09 · 29-12-2016 02:28PM

A Little Pony wrote:

Talking about the education of voters is another reason Trump won. Who gives a damn about the education of voters?

The people creating the message care about the voter education, low/high information preference. It tells them how to create policy and communicate with their target demographics. It's how populism works.

Trump struck the magic formula of populism with a target voter demographic of low information voters. It means all he has to do is tell them what they want to hear and they won't have or look for further information.

A Little Pony wrote:

They vote on what they believe in, they don't need a degree to be able to know who to vote for.

The voters don't have a clue what Donald trump believes in or what he will do. They're waiting to see what he does, just like everyone else. The trick was to tell them he believes whatever they believe. Without being specific to avoid people finding differences between his beliefs and theirs.

A Little Pony wrote:

Hillary was a boring fart and The Donald was brilliant and entertaining to watch.

Exactly. He gave them reality TV while Hillary was talking about policy. Snooze.

This follows on from giving his core demographic what they want. It turns out that low information voters don't want to watch politics, they want to watch reality TV. So trump did his entire campaign in reality TV style.

Plot lines change in reality TV every week or 10 days so the viewers don't mind if plot lines aren't followed through. This week it's deportation squads last week it was a trade war with China, next week it's being beasties with Putin.

The important point us that the people have no mandate or any kind of agreement with trump. He literally has free reign because his voters don't have any specific expectations for him.

Jelle1880 · 29-12-2016 02:31PM

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Mind you, is it just me or have we all become a bit indoctrinated into -American- style "left" and "right"? A lot of people have become interested in politics this year and, honestly, more or less cut their political teeth on Brexit and the US election. Maybe go back to one or two of the referenda that Ireland had too, but there has been a surge of interest since fecking Trump hoved on the horizon.

I'll absolutely admit openly that while I had some interest now and again, I have never had as much information or interest in politics as I have this year. And I am certain that I am not the only one, even in this thread.

But the downside is that we're all eating and drinking American concepts of left and right, republican, democrat, all the rest rather than those of our own countries - even our own -continent-. Can we expect to see a surge in American political identity in Europe replacing our own systems and way of thinking due to saturation of American politics and ignorance of the subtle differences in European politics?

It sure seems to me that many of the people who like Trump and/or the Republicans seem to think that wanting the Democrats to win means you are automatically a left-winged Marxist/Commie.

The Democrats are to the right spectrum if you would compare them to for example Irish or maybe even European political parties in general.

HellSquirrel · 29-12-2016 02:34PM

Jelle1880 wrote: »

It sure seems to me that many of the people who like Trump and/or the Republicans seem to think that wanting the Democrats to win means you are automatically a left-winged Marxist/Commie.

The Democrats are to the right spectrum if you would compare them to for example Irish or maybe even European political parties in general.

I do find this a bit worrying. The last thing we really need in Europe is a replacement of current concepts by American ones. We need to understand our own and be able to talk about them with the same detail as we can American ones rather than trying to translate concepts built from a completely different sociological history onto European problems.

Renegade Mechanic · 29-12-2016 02:41PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

It's in the voter demographics. You're always linking to various articles so i have complete faith in your ability to look up the numbers. Without much research I can see that trump won his core demographic white people without a college degree by 39points 67-28. That's huge.

I'd prefer to see a better breakdown by education like junior cert equivalent, leaving cert equivalent, degree, postgraduate and PhD level.

Naturally those figures are skewed by earnings and promises of a tax cut for the wealthy. But the main ones of relevance to this discussion would be how much trump won whites without a college degree (he won by about 39%) and whites with varing levels of education up to degree.

But you knew this already so why all the push back? Is it because I keep describing them as low information voters?

What do you expect, whitey was finally tired of being told s/he was the reason for everything wrong in the world. Whitey probably collectively decided to give his detractors something to really bitch about....

I'm not pushing back, you're "highly educated" opinion of the "poorly educated" is actually hilarious to me. I genuinely smile evert time I see you spouting it, so don't let me stop you.

Of course Trump did poorly amongst the "college educated", and I used the "educated" term very loosely. How many people's courses are infected with "diversity" slants, and "cultural awareness" programmes. Things like "gender studies" are beyond worthless in the real world, particularly how they're taught. Anyone who falls for that crap "higher education" is going to be among the "higher educated" that railed against Trump, having panic attacks at his name being chalked on their steps.

Now, if we were to disect the college Trump vote, remove race or religious beliefs altogether and examine it by subject....
I'd wonder if the gaps would considerably narrow

Basically, among the college voters, I would regard the opinions of anyone getting a degree in Diversity studies far below anyone in something like physics or engineering.
I'd wager that Trump would still lose, but probably by the skin of his teeth if you removed the worthless subjects/the people parroting the "evil whitey" ****.

You probably consider everyone going through the modern college system to be "high information".
I consider most of them morons, ironically more narrow minded coming out than they were going in and far more susceptible to the manipulation you claim Trump employs on his followers.

Now there are morons both sides, but if you think it's the only reason he won, and if there arw a sufficient number of people with that view then you're probably all not going to enjoy the 2020 election, should he decide to run...

HellSquirrel · 29-12-2016 02:48PM

Okay, Renegade, I'm a highly educated scientist - in hard sciences, not diversity studies or whatever you've decided that university students learn these days that make them less likely to fall for a con-man like Trump. I am strongly against his wishy-washy bull**** views regarding pretty much everything, and the deeply cynical views of the GOP regarding things like medicine, education, climate science, reliance on polluting fuels and cynical work against alternatives, and research into basically all of the above puts me diametrically opposed in ideology to them.

One thing that university teaches is -how to learn-. How to research, how things work, how to look into something with a critical eye. And in many cases, my own included, how chemistry, physics and biology work in terms of not believing some of the absolute misinformed bullcrap that gets put out as fact, as if physics is merely a fecking opinion.

Trump is absolutely a con-man. He is a -classic- conman.

Diversity studies is a ridiculous straw-man.

Renegade Mechanic · 29-12-2016 02:56PM

Good for you, HellSquirrel. You must feel hopelessly outnumbered.

Jimoslimos · 29-12-2016 03:15PM

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

Basically, among the college voters, I would regard the opinions of anyone getting a degree in Diversity studies far below anyone in something like physics or engineering.
I'd wager that Trump would still lose, but probably by the skin of his teeth if you removed the worthless subjects/the people parroting the "evil whitey" ****....

An understanding of quantum mechanics* hasn't been much use to me and am not sure how it makes my opinion any more valid.

The point of a University degree is to develop critical thinking, whether that is writing up a lab experiment and drawing conclusions from your results or reading and analysing concepts in some obscure 19th century feminist work.

*Although I recognise by thinking I understand it that I actually don't!

dudara · 29-12-2016 03:54PM

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Okay, Renegade, I'm a highly educated scientist - in hard sciences, not diversity studies or whatever you've decided that university students learn these days that make them less likely to fall for a con-man like Trump. I am strongly against his wishy-washy bull**** views regarding pretty much everything, and the deeply cynical views of the GOP regarding things like medicine, education, climate science, reliance on polluting fuels and cynical work against alternatives, and research into basically all of the above puts me diametrically opposed in ideology to them.

One thing that university teaches is -how to learn-. How to research, how things work, how to look into something with a critical eye. And in many cases, my own included, how chemistry, physics and biology work in terms of not believing some of the absolute misinformed bullcrap that gets put out as fact, as if physics is merely a fecking opinion.

Trump is absolutely a con-man. He is a -classic- conman.

Diversity studies is a ridiculous straw-man.

I'm in the same boat as HS. I'm highly educated and hold a PhD (in Physics). I highly value my university education and the great benefits it gave me. I value critical thought, and the ability to form ones own opinions based on the evidence I see in front of me. Take emotion out of the argument and looks at the facts. That's science for you baby.

Trump (and his ilk) is an abhorrent phenomena to me. Facts have been thrown straight out of the window. In fact, it's worse than that, it's as if people take a willful joy in ignoring them.

Fact: Trump referred to grabbing women by the p*ssy. What a horrible statement to make, even if it was locker room talk. Yet women voted for him in their droves. I can't fathom how they rationalised that in their head.

Fact: Trump has a track record of racist incidents, stretching back decades.

Fact: Trump set up a fraudulent university, that was not licensed by the state, and for which he will pay ~$1m in fines plus the $25m lawsuit settlement. But that "inconvenient truth" has been largely suppressed.

Fact: Trump is the first non-politician or non-military person (IiRC) to hold this office. While it's actually good to shake up the system, his lack of nous in this arena is going to be hugely impactful:

But hey, who cares about facts? Let's just stick it to someone!!!

A Little Pony · 29-12-2016 04:00PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote:

Talking about the education of voters is another reason Trump won. Who gives a damn about the education of voters?

The people creating the message care about the voter education, low/high information preference. It tells them how to create policy and communicate with their target demographics. It's how populism works.

Trump struck the magic formula of populism with a target voter demographic of low information voters. It means all he has to do is tell them what they want to hear and they won't have or look for further information.

A Little Pony wrote:

They vote on what they believe in, they don't need a degree to be able to know who to vote for.

The voters don't have a clue what Donald trump believes in or what he will do. They're waiting to see what he does, just like everyone else. The trick was to tell them he believes whatever they believe. Without being specific to avoid people finding differences between his beliefs and theirs.

A Little Pony wrote:

Hillary was a boring fart and The Donald was brilliant and entertaining to watch.

Exactly. He gave them reality TV while Hillary was talking about policy. Snooze.

This follows on from giving his core demographic what they want. It turns out that low information voters don't want to watch politics, they want to watch reality TV. So trump did his entire campaign in reality TV style.

Plot lines change in reality TV every week or 10 days so the viewers don't mind if plot lines aren't followed through. This week it's deportation squads last week it was a trade war with China, next week it's being beasties with Putin.

The important point us that the people have no mandate or any kind of agreement with trump. He literally has free reign because his voters don't have any specific expectations for him.

Donald Trump actually believed in more of the things he said than Hillary. Hillary didn't have any policies except 'vote for me because I have a vagina'. Constantly played the woman card, had to use celebrities to try and help her awful campaign. The desperation of it was obvious to Americans.

You mention low information but Hillary tried to hide what she really thought in her emails which got leaked. Her crooked foundation also got found out. You didn't need a degree to see Hillary was not good enough to be President. Hillary actually tried to cover it all up, the money from Saudi Arabia, while promoting women rights, unbelievable.

A Little Pony · 29-12-2016 04:04PM

HellSquirrel wrote: »

Okay, Renegade, I'm a highly educated scientist - in hard sciences, not diversity studies or whatever you've decided that university students learn these days that make them less likely to fall for a con-man like Trump. I am strongly against his wishy-washy bull**** views regarding pretty much everything, and the deeply cynical views of the GOP regarding things like medicine, education, climate science, reliance on polluting fuels and cynical work against alternatives, and research into basically all of the above puts me diametrically opposed in ideology to them.

One thing that university teaches is -how to learn-. How to research, how things work, how to look into something with a critical eye. And in many cases, my own included, how chemistry, physics and biology work in terms of not believing some of the absolute misinformed bullcrap that gets put out as fact, as if physics is merely a fecking opinion.

Trump is absolutely a con-man. He is a -classic- conman.

Diversity studies is a ridiculous straw-man.

You mean learning cultural Marxism.

Billy86 · 29-12-2016 04:04PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Donald Trump actually believed in more of the things he said than Hillary. Hillary didn't have any policies except 'vote for me because I have a vagina'.

You're really doing a great job of proving El_Duderino's point about low information voters.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

the money from Saudi Arabia

Actually while I'm at it, what's your thoughts on the money Trump got from Saudi Arabia, having been bailed out by the House of Saud itself?

A Little Pony · 29-12-2016 04:10PM

Billy86 wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Donald Trump actually believed in more of the things he said than Hillary. Hillary didn't have any policies except 'vote for me because I have a vagina'.

You're really doing a great job of proving El_Duderino's point about low information voters.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

the money from Saudi Arabia

Actually while I'm at it, what's your thoughts on the money Trump got from Saudi Arabia, having been bailed out by the House of Saud itself?

Two can play that game. Only difference is Trump won, while Hillary got sent home packing.

https://www.donaldjtrump.com/policies

El Presidente Trump

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