Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

km79 · 19-12-2016 01:07AM

What had Holmes and Connolly to gain from this ? If I was a betting man I'd put a sizeable wager on which one of them wanted it to go this way anyway .
Maybe he pressured the other lad into it

MayoAreMagic · 19-12-2016 01:14AM

koochie wrote: »

Mayo Are Magic is it a possibility that because H & C did not pander to the requests/demands of the 'egos' that the players revolted?
If this happens to be the case, the players who initiated the whole thing are hardly going to be honest about their motives, as in doing so would turn members of the team against them. E.g. Hennelly is hardly going to tell Clarke he is not happy with H & C because they view Clarke to be the superior man on the goal line.
As yesterday's article outlines mountains were being made out of molehills in regard to trivial events, possibly because the players with issues could not make their true motives known, as their motives were not for in the interest of all the players.

A lot of ifs and buts there. It could be the case, or it could not be, I dont really see the point of idle speculation. Like it is also possible that the version we have just heard is full of inaccuracies, but again, idle speculation.

As regards trivial issues being made into mountains, the same could be said of their issues to be honest. Was SOS dictating to them or simply offering them the opinion of the guy who is supposed to be catching said kickouts? Was AOS dictating to them or just speaking on behalf of a young lad who felt he was going well and wanted some feedback? And was alan dillon being insubordinate or was he fully entitled to ask why a guy who was out of form at the time was selected ahead of him in every single game? Depends on how you want to spin it I would say - and there has been a hell of a lot of that.

The reality is we need to keep an open mind and not believe everything we read, particularly when it is from a guy who we know has written some dodgey stuff about us in the past.

Robeman · 19-12-2016 02:30AM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Sorry but that isnt true at all. None of this was played out in public, therefore the entire thing is a 'great unknown', using that logic.

They dont have to make their reasons public and that is their perogative. Do you tell the world the details of your business? Because I certainly dont. Now I agree that the reasons could maybe have been discussed with the two guys, but what actual difference would that make? They still wanted them out. In all likelihood we would just have had more meat for the journos to tear into in their articles when the details were inevitably leaked - the same way everything else has been leaked, both by the co board, certain players and the managers themselves. So in that respect, maybe it was the smartest thing they have done to date to say nothing? You are naive if you think the managers dont know 95% of what all this was over. They were there the same as all the players were.

Absolutely there isnt, so why were they so put out by it? Why did they take it so personally that players had different opinions to them? As for not accepting who was boss, I see no genuine evidence of that. I see details of players speaking with managers that are being spun a certain way by one side. We need more context on SOS' suggesting hennelly for example. Was he laying down the law or was he simply offering his opinion to the managers in a well meaning way? We are having an awful lot of blanks filled in for us in a quite deliberate way in this article. What I dont get is if it is this clear cut, why cant they just give us those details, rather than their narrative?

Alan Dillon wasnt in the team at any point though. Which, when you consider his influence against tyrone a year later, raises questions as regards their managerial ability. Could this lack of ability be a factor in the frustrations clearly evident in the players? Very likely I would imagine. You seem to have everything as a one way street. There are two sides to every story.

QUOTE=Robeman;102008189]Alan Dillon
Seamus O Shea
Aidan O Shea
Robbie Hennelly
Keith Higgins
I wonder why these were the ones singled out.

The same higgins who they named their vice captain?

QUOTE=Robeman;102008189]We don't win a lot in Mayo if fact we win so few national titles at senior level that believe it or not Pat Holmes is out most successful senior manager since 1951 having won a national league title and an under 21 title. So before belittling him less us remember that little fact.[/QUOTE]

Indeed. As we should remember that this group of players are the most committed, determined, consistant and by far the best group we have ever had, who have taken superior teams to the wire time and again and are feared and respected up and down the country. Before slating them at every turn and giving them zero slack, we should remember that fact also, shouldnt we? Or are you going down the martin breheny school of double standards route also?[/QUOTE]

Who can say if the votes were honestly counted except those who counted them. What I can say for definite is that no player put their name on the letter to County Board. This would have been place to have put your opinion on the managers out there publically.

If you fire someone in a job rule one is that you should have the character \ balls to tell them why they are being fired so that they are not left wondering and can move on with their lives.

Connolly \ Holmes were never told because if "egos" gave true reason we would have told them to get lost. TNevertheless I expect they know the real story like everyone else who has contacts in panel and county board.

Various "egos" did not want them because they did not worship them and treat them like little princes. The "egos" were allied to a number of non playing individuals (who were the brains of the operation) previously connected to Mayo football who their own agenda. Like all coups played out in the political world the coup was for the benefit of the conspirators and not for the benefit of the people (supporters in our case). Unfortunately (or fortunately if you are a mayo supporter) the coup did not fully succeed . SR was not the successor who was waiting in the wings to be crowned. The plotters did not see SR coming.

What is so special about the "egos" that it is just their opinion that has to count. I am sure that the other 15 \ 20 players on the panel who did not start each game all thought that they should have been playing as did the non starters for Dublin Kerry etc. It did not mean that they all went off organising a coup.

How many of the players exactly have won a national senior title, how many have an u21 title. Holmes has one of each as a manager.

The idea that this is the greates group of mayo players does not stand up what exactly have they won? NOTHING. The 50\51 team are the greatest mayo team ever bar none. The 36 team are next as in addition to an All Ireland they won 6 leagues in a row in 30ies which would have been 8 except that they withdrew from 1.

The current mayo team are not respected because they have won NOTHING. The only reason they are feared is that they might stop you winning an all ireland in any round up to the final.

Joe Brolly put it best when he said they were a bunch a celebrity losers. I call them the "Egos". We must remember they are a minority in the panel who SR needs to dump asap.

The county board has a lot to answer for. If it had any balls \ character it would have told panel "That ok guys if you are not happy we have another 40 guys will to put on the jersey".

We would not have won a all ireland last year with new panel but neither did we with the "egos"

Robeman · 19-12-2016 02:51AM

ProudDUB wrote: »

Dublin footballers don't embaress themselves in the media, because they understand the concepts of team work, hard work, loyalty and unity. It's not because they are being advised by professionals night and day. If you think character doesn't matter & its just about having the right handlers on the payroll, then you have an awful lot to learn about what it takes to win an All Ireland.

I heard a story that some years ago (I don't know how many) that they were rumblings of a rebellion in the Dublin panel after being knocked out of an all ireland campaign (dont know at what stage).

The county Chairman got wind of it so the story goes and met with the panel. At the meeting he thanked the panel for their services during campaign and told them that as all ireland campaign over Dublin no longer had a senior team panel but that manager would be picking a new one for the league in due course.

The team got the message and mutterings of rebellion died away.

Maybe its only a story and maybe its true. I cannot confirm one way or the other. If true it tells me one of the reasons Dublin is 2nd in the success charts.

Oh if only Mayo had a County Board Chairman with brains and balls.

NabyLadistheman · 19-12-2016 10:00AM

Do people honestly believe that the O'Shea's forced Rochford to put Henley in goals for the replay?!? Bonkers

ixus · 19-12-2016 10:34AM

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Do people honestly believe that the O'Shea's forced Rochford to put Henley in goals for the replay?!? Bonkers

I think forced is a strong word. Maybe there was a discussion whereby a player(s) felt that they could read the kickouts of Keeper A over Keeper B because they were on a better wavelength. That this might give the team the edge to win the match as there were only small margins in it.

It could have swayed the decision. I wouldn't really have an issue with that. All guess work.

kilns · 19-12-2016 10:48AM

One of the things I find crazy was that in mid season Aidan OShea was allowed to partake in the toughest trade programme. If a Dublin player for example, requested to do it at that time of the year, they would either be laughed at or would never see a Dublin jersey again that summer.
I guess that is the difference between the two set ups
Player power never ends well.

MayoAreMagic · 19-12-2016 11:00AM

Who can say if the votes were honestly counted except those who counted them. What I can say for definite is that no player put their name on the letter to County Board.

Who is to say that the players didn't put their name on the letter? Were you there to see it? Who is to say, basically anything, if that is the attitude?
We can all go down that route if we want to.

SR was not the successor who was waiting in the wings to be crowned. The plotters did not see SR coming.

And who was? Rochford was the obvious candidate for everyone else, he was nailed on for the job and the only person nominated. You need to stop talking in riddles and actually say what you think.

The idea that this is the greates group of mayo players does not stand up what exactly have they won? NOTHING. The 50\51 team are the greatest mayo team ever bar none. The 36 team are next as in addition to an All Ireland they won 6 leagues in a row in 30ies which would have been 8 except that they withdrew from 1.

If they were to somehow come up against each other, the current team would hockey them. They are the best team ever. Not the most successful, but definitely the best.

The current mayo team are not respected because they have won NOTHING. The only reason they are feared is that they might stop you winning an all ireland in any round up to the final.

If that is what you think then you haven't a clue. Donegal were celebrating in 2014 when Kerry beat us.

Joe Brolly put it best when he said they were a bunch a celebrity losers. I call them the "Egos". We must remember they are a minority in the panel who SR needs to dump asap.

It is just a rant at this stage...

You don't seem interested in discussing the thing on its merits and with an open mind, so I don't see the point in continuing debating with you.

Also, you don't have to keep putting the word egos in inverted commas, its a genuine word...

NabyLadistheman · 19-12-2016 11:07AM

kilns wrote: »

One of the things I find crazy was that in mid season Aidan OShea was allowed to partake in the toughest trade programme. If a Dublin player for example, requested to do it at that time of the year, they would either be laughed at or would never see a Dublin jersey again that summer.
I guess that is the difference between the two set ups
Player power never ends well.

Really hurt Tipp alright with Brendan Maher taking part. Not relevant imo

MayoAreMagic · 19-12-2016 11:07AM

ixus wrote: »

I think forced is a strong word. Maybe there was a discussion whereby a player(s) felt that they could read the kickouts of Keeper A over Keeper B because they were on a better wavelength. That this might give the team the edge to win the match as there were only small margins in it.

It could have swayed the decision. I wouldn't really have an issue with that. All guess work.

Which is completely reasonable to be fair. Good managers gauge the feeling in their squads, but gauging feeling is a lot different to players dictating the selection, which people seem determined to spin it into

Fr Tod Umptious · 19-12-2016 11:09AM

Suarezistheman wrote: »

Really hurt Tipp alright with Brendan Maher taking part. Not relevant imo

And Jackie Tyrrell form Kilkenny no less did it the years before.

kilns · 19-12-2016 11:20AM

If you have not won an all ireland all of your efforts should be going into that one goal, not feeding your own ego

I am sure AOS was not the first choice for this, a Dublin player would be much more high profile and marketable but we know that Gavin would not stand for it in his set up. I guess thats the difference

TCDStudent1 · 19-12-2016 11:50AM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And Jackie Tyrrell form Kilkenny no less did it the years before.

Bit different when you've already an AI medal in your pocket. People won't be as quick to criticise when you have that.

washman3 · 19-12-2016 11:57AM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Bit different when you've already an AI medal in your pocket. People won't be as quick to criticise when you have that.

Exactly, and both Tyrell and Maher perform when it matters most,on the big stage.!!
And both are slow to court the media.;)

naughto · 19-12-2016 11:59AM

awaywithyou wrote: »

Looking in from outside.... The sooner Aidan o Shea is left at home the better for Mayo football.... He just loves the media too much.. Playing basketball now to get the photo in the paper...

Watching all Ireland this yr... For me it was dublins day when John small took down cillian connor.. Cillian looked to linesman.. No action... He punched the ground like a pure child when nothing was done.... The o se's wouldn't have done that when the played with Kerry... Either would galvin.... Those boys looked after those things themselves.... There were what you call MEN.... I'm heading to a north Kerry football final shortly.... The ref will throw in the ball and blow the whistle for half time and full time.... Each player will be expected to look after themselves while the game is on..... And if you can't you shouldn't be there..... Mayo lads would want to take a good look at themselves.... And I couldn't give a ****e if they never won a match again...... No ones fault only there own they ain't winning the big prize....

That's a lot of full stops....

Dyr · 19-12-2016 12:22PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

Bit different when you've already an AI medal in your pocket. People won't be as quick to criticise when you have that.

Jackie had a medal in every pocket and a few spare for the good suit

washman3 · 19-12-2016 12:32PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And Jackie Tyrrell form Kilkenny no less did it the years before.

Comparing Tyrell to AOS is some insult to Jackie, not that he would give 2 ****es, with EIGHT A.I. medals on his mantle.
But when did we ever see Tyrell 'go missing' in a final..??
I rest my case.

MaroonAndGreen · 19-12-2016 12:33PM

Bambi wrote:

Jackie had a medal in every pocket and a few spare for the good suit

What's this stone age caveman attitude that a player can't do any media without having won an All Ireland? So basically 99% of players in the country need to keep their gob shut and "keep their head down and concentrate on getting a medal". It's 21st century Ireland lads.

MaroonAndGreen · 19-12-2016 12:35PM

Plus, players have put in mammoth work for years, it's very sad that supporters would begrudge them an opportunity to do something for themselves for a week, even if it was in February! Bit of cop on needed on this subject

Fr Tod Umptious · 19-12-2016 01:04PM

Muahahaha wrote: »

For me this is the damning part-

Why? Holmes and Connelly believe it arises from an unwillingness on the part of the players to take responsibility for their part in the team's persistent failure in big matches. They note that when, after taking over, they asked senior players why they felt Mayo had come up short in recent seasons. The players, "told us match-ups were wrong, opposition analysis was poor, there was a lack of adaptability and they had no defensive plan. They also highlighted some errors for goals and also occasions when they had turned over the ball too easily."
Holmes and Connelly observe that this meant the players were largely blaming "factors outside their control" for their underachievement. In fact, they were implicitly blaming the management of James Horan, something which seems to give the lie to the argument that player objections to the new duo were founded on a perception that there had been a drop-off in standards since Horan's time

But look at what happened in 2016 under Rochford

The defence was totally revamped, no more leaking goals at an alarming rate, three goals conceded v Dublin in the final, 2 o.gs and a penalty, and far fewer gaols chances for Dublin that we saw in the two games last year.

Playing McLoughlin as a sweeper was a success at the end of the day.

The whole narrative for the summer of 2016 was “look at Mayo, they are now adapting their game to suit the situation”

Look at the Tyrone QF and compare it to the Tyrone league game in 2015, I know they are two very different situations, but the way that Mayo approached both games is totally different.

I would have no faith that H&C would be able to adapt the way Rochford did.

So the argument that management previously did not put enough into game planning is a very valid one if you ask me.

As I said before all of this would be well and good if Mayo fell flat in 2016, they didn’t.

People wrote them off at half-time v Fermanagh, they won

People wrote them off v Tyrone, they won

Some people even suggested that they would lose to Tipp, they won

People said that Dublin would roll over them; they drew and lost by the slimmest of margins.

The players more than stood up for themselves in 2016, and with a management team that was smarter than we saw previously they improved IMO.

And one of the players who voted against the heave ended up as POTY.

I was against the heave when it first happened, I though H&C were “ridden rock solid” after what they did in 2015, but as 2016 went on my opinion was changed.

WesternZulu · 19-12-2016 01:04PM

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

Plus, players have put in mammoth work for years, it's very sad that supporters would begrudge them an opportunity to do something for themselves for a week, even if it was in February! Bit of cop on needed on this subject

Exactly!

Brendan Maher also did The Toughest Trade and he had an All-Ireland medal in his back pocket 7 months later so obviously it wasn't something that was necessarily a hindrance.

Green Peter · 19-12-2016 01:15PM

TCDStudent1 wrote: »

what was the issue with their appointment again?

Didn't McStay withdraw once it became clear that the players didn't want to work with Liam McHale? I certainly remember him saying something like that when he withdrew. And I don't recall any other contenders outside Holmes / Connelly

The players didnt want to work with McHale!!! There's a hint here of what was to come. Maybe the players with big ego's didnt feel they could influence things with McHale on board. Maybe this was the real loss to Mayo. Maybe this was the opportunity to get the team over the line and the players egos again got in the way!

Fr Tod Umptious · 19-12-2016 01:17PM

Green Peter wrote: »

The players didnt want to work with McHale!!! There's a hint here of what was to come. Maybe the players with big ego's didnt feel they could influence things with McHale on board. Maybe this was the real loss to Mayo. Maybe this was the opportunity to get the team over the line and the players egos again got in the way!

Take a look at Roscommon.

Your answer to working with McHale is right there.

Robeman · 19-12-2016 01:20PM

MayoAreMagic wrote: »

Who is to say that the players didn't put their name on the letter? Were you there to see it? Who is to say, basically anything, if that is the attitude?
We can all go down that route if we want to.

And who was? Rochford was the obvious candidate for everyone else, he was nailed on for the job and the only person nominated. You need to stop talking in riddles and actually say what you think.

If they were to somehow come up against each other, the current team would hockey them. They are the best team ever. Not the most successful, but definitely the best.

If that is what you think then you haven't a clue. Donegal were celebrating in 2014 when Kerry beat us.

It is just a rant at this stage...

You don't seem interested in discussing the thing on its merits and with an open mind, so I don't see the point in continuing debating with you.

Also, you don't have to keep putting the word egos in inverted commas, its a genuine word...

The lettter to the county board at the bottom wqas signed "Mayo senior panel" This was typed not hand written. Nobody put their name on the letter. FACT

Once SR declared an interest yes he was nailed on for the job as the county board were fully aware of who "egos" wanted and there was no way they were having her as they knew she was was behind the coup. FACT

When you compare teams accross distant eras you assess them by their successes. 36 \ 50\51 team all won and were best teams in Ireland in those years. Current team have never been the best in Ireland only 2nd \ 3rd \ 4th best. There were no "egos" on 36 \ 50 \51 teams than god otherwise they too would have failed. OPINION

Whether Donegal were celebrating or not does not matter now to them or us. Ket fact is Donegal have won 2 All Ireland while we have been losing 10. OPINION

I was first person to mention "egos" in Mayo panel two months ago. national Press have now picked up on it. If I am ranting I am in good company. If you do not want to debate with me that is fine. I am already well informed about what went on. I was ridiculed 2 months ago as well and many did not want to hear the truth then and many wanted me banned and succeeded. I feel sorry for all the innocent supporters out their who think that everything about mayo football is perfect and that all we are missing is another forward or two. Life in Zimbabwe is perfect also if we are to believe President Mugabe

If you know any of the 2015 panel \ 2015 backroom team \ 2015 county board \ well informed Mayo GAA individuals can I suggest you speak with them to get to the truth of the matter as I have done.

washman3 · 19-12-2016 01:20PM

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

What's this stone age caveman attitude that a player can't do any media without having won an All Ireland? So basically 99% of players in the country need to keep their gob shut and "keep their head down and concentrate on getting a medal". It's 21st century Ireland lads.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that. What they are saying is that the likes of AOS talks the talk but goes missing when his team need him most.
Forget the 3 goals scored off the Sligo junior B full back, its consistent performances on the big stage that matter.
That is the point you are missing.

Robeman · 19-12-2016 01:27PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

And Jackie Tyrrell form Kilkenny no less did it the years before.

If mayo had as many all irelands as Kilkenny and Tipp (they even have more Football all ireland s than Mayo I think never mind the hurling) then it would be ok.

Green Peter · 19-12-2016 01:31PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

Your answer to working with McHale is right there.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

Take a look at Roscommon.

God himself wouldn't last with Roscommon!

Robeman · 19-12-2016 01:34PM

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But look at what happened in 2016 under Rochford

The defence was totally revamped, no more leaking goals at an alarming rate, three goals conceded v Dublin in the final, 2 o.gs and a penalty, and far fewer gaols chances for Dublin that we saw in the two games last year.

Playing McLoughlin as a sweeper was a success at the end of the day.

The whole narrative for the summer of 2016 was “look at Mayo, they are now adapting their game to suit the situation”

Look at the Tyrone QF and compare it to the Tyrone league game in 2015, I know they are two very different situations, but the way that Mayo approached both games is totally different.

I would have no faith that H&C would be able to adapt the way Rochford did.

So the argument that management previously did not put enough into game planning is a very valid one if you ask me.

As I said before all of this would be well and good if Mayo fell flat in 2016, they didn’t.

People wrote them off at half-time v Fermanagh, they won

People wrote them off v Tyrone, they won

Some people even suggested that they would lose to Tipp, they won

People said that Dublin would roll over them; they drew and lost by the slimmest of margins.

The players more than stood up for themselves in 2016, and with a management team that was smarter than we saw previously they improved IMO.

And one of the players who voted against the heave ended up as POTY.

I was against the heave when it first happened, I though H&C were “ridden rock solid” after what they did in 2015, but as 2016 went on my opinion was changed.

What happen under Rochford can be summarised in three words "We lost again"

Three different managers over 6 years pretty much same players \ pretty much same results each year and somehow the only problem mayo had in that period is the manager for one of the years. The common element in all years is the players and particularly the "Egos"

Worshipping the "egos" will lose us 2017 All Ireland as well.

km79 · 19-12-2016 01:38PM

All the hostility this has stirred up and increased focus it will bring on Rochford next year I hope H and C got well paid for the interview ...........one things for sure they won't be acknowledged in any possible AI winning speech !

TCDStudent1 · 19-12-2016 01:45PM

Robeman wrote: »

The lettter to the county board at the bottom wqas signed "Mayo senior panel" This was typed not hand written. Nobody put their name on the letter. FACT

Once SR declared an interest yes he was nailed on for the job as the county board were fully aware of who "egos" wanted and there was no way they were having her as they knew she was was behind the coup. FACT

When you compare teams accross distant eras you assess them by their successes. 36 \ 50\51 team all won and were best teams in Ireland in those years. Current team have never been the best in Ireland only 2nd \ 3rd \ 4th best. There were no "egos" on 36 \ 50 \51 teams than god otherwise they too would have failed. OPINION

Whether Donegal were celebrating or not does not matter now to them or us. Ket fact is Donegal have won 2 All Ireland while we have been losing 10. OPINION

I was first person to mention "egos" in Mayo panel two months ago. national Press have now picked up on it. If I am ranting I am in good company. If you do not want to debate with me that is fine. I am already well informed about what went on. I was ridiculed 2 months ago as well and many did not want to hear the truth then and many wanted me banned and succeeded. I feel sorry for all the innocent supporters out their who think that everything about mayo football is perfect and that all we are missing is another forward or two. Life in Zimbabwe is perfect also if we are to believe President Mugabe

If you know any of the 2015 panel \ 2015 backroom team \ 2015 county board \ well informed Mayo GAA individuals can I suggest you speak with them to get to the truth of the matter as I have done.

Hmm I've been hearing about these 'egos' a long time before 2 months ago!

Mayo GAA Discussion Part 2

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